Help? Not to proud to ask!

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mudpuppy
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Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:28 pm

Hi everyone, I'm the new kid on the block. I've had dogs in my life all my 59 years but suddenly my husband and I find ourselves mom and dad to a pair of delightful full blooded English Pointers that were dumped near our farm. They found us Sunday morning covered with cow flop and mud, scared and hurt. They are brother and sister and the little boy appears to have been forcibly ejected from a car, possibly pushed out a window onto a concrete bridge deck, his front pads badly scraped, swollen and raw. They looked to be about three months old and the vet confirmed their age for us.

They cleaned up beautifully. We scrubbed about two pounds of crud off of them and discovered a beautiful pair of black and white pointers under all the dirt. The little boy is timid at this point but coming around now that his feet are being treated by our vet and he is safe and warm. He had a low grade infection from his feet being injured and is on antibiotics. The little girl is a live wire, all puppy wiggles and kisses. It breaks my heart to see these two little darlings clinging to one another and think of how they were so thoughtlessly, and cruelly treated. It is a wonder that they didn't fall prey to coyotes before they wandered into our lives. A pair of Amish children confirmed that they thought they saw the car that dumped them spin their wheels on the bridge and I found the spot where it did indeed happen in the mud that was covering the bridge deck.

The pair is paper trained, no worm infestation and healthy looking. Of course we are going to keep them. If there is room in your heart there is room in your house is my motto. They have names, their first collars, have started their puppy shots, heart worm and Frontline treatments and have a Fur-ever home with us.

Any advice on raising these two adorable little heathens? I've raised my fair share of pups but never a bird dog let alone two at the same time. We do not bird hunt but I would like to encourage their natural instincts with birds (the little girl is already 'pointing' at one of our cats) and give them the best general education that I can. They will be family members, couch potatoes and companions. I do not plan to compete them. We have 30 acres of timber and pastures for them to romp in with the other dogs when they mature, and two ponds for them to swim in. They have had a rough enough start in life. From here on in, it's love and kindness.

Any sage advice will be greatly appreciated.Image

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Sharon
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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:29 pm

They are two lucky dogs to have found you.

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RoostersMom
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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RoostersMom » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Sage advice, I'm not sure - but advice you asked for and I will provide with a willing heart. There are a few things that are "rescue dog" related and a few just puppy related. I'm a foster parent and have been for the last 12 years or so - fostering many, many birddogs and raising several of my own dogs. That's where my perspective comes from.

Rescue dog related: as hard as it is, you need to forget the HOW of the dogs coming into your life and exist in the NOW. Too many people "rescue" a dog and then use that as an excuse to either have an ill-trained or a spoiled pet. The dogs exist in the now, not in the before. If you constantly act like the little darlings are "rescue" dogs then you're doing them a disservice - you aren't expecting enough from them. Treat them exactly as you would a pup you got from day one that has no baggage. That said, they'll need much socialization - but pointers particularly are very resilient. Get them out separately and socialize the crud out of them.

Puppy related: crate training is your best friend! It helps the dog to have a den or a safe place that is all theirs. It is an invaluable tool with potty training as well.

Sibling related: google littermate syndrome. I have dealt with this issue with multiple fosters as well as with a pair of beagle pups I raised as well. This can be a serious deal. The pups will rely on each other too much - they won't exist well or reach their full potential if they are constantly with the other dog. They won't bond with your family as well either. The suggestion has been given by others (and you'll read up on it when you google littermate syndrome) that the pups need to be separated totally with the exception of no more than an hour a day. Hard to do? Yes. Worth it in the long run (a pointer can live to be 16 or more)? Absolutely. I have seen some really awful results of littermate syndrome (which BTW, can occur with non-littermates).

Your puppy related - keep us updated with pictures - you never know if the pups will turn out to be birddogs! They are adorable little tykes. And what did you name them?

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by HDAU » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:09 pm

Great looking pups! Please keep us posted!

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:24 pm

Give them all the love you can and they will give it back tenfold. I would caution you to not let them roam free, as pointers are very efficient predators and their desire to hunt and kill will cause them to seek prey. This can lead to them going great distances from home and put them at great risk.

I do encourage you to take them for walks with you, especially when they are young and teach them to come with you. Be a pack leader and insist that they stay with you. The lessons they learn in this regard when they are young will tendto stay with them.

Good luck. I wish you folks every success.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:55 pm

Thanks everyone.

Roostersmom, sage advice indeed and much appreciated. That's what I asked for and I'm not adverse to hearing it from somebody who has been there and done that. Experience is a great teacher and I am not too old to learn. I will definitely look into the litermate syndrome. I am taking the pups out separately at this point, beginning house breaking and the female is catching on to what is expected from her. I am hoping that the mature dogs of the house will help teach them the ropes. At this time the females seem to be more receptive to them than the male. I've dealt with abused pups before, so this isn't my first time at the rodeo so to speak. My border collie came to me as a badly abused 5 month old pup. No self confidence, ultra submissive. I know we have our work cut out for us with the male winning his trust and helping him overcome his over active submissiveness, but we are up to the task. Our ACD is also a rescue dog who was saved from a trip to the pound when he showed up in the neighborhood as a stray. One of the best dogs that has ever owned us.

The male pup is responding well to the antibiotics. The swelling in his pads and feet is diminishing steadily and his activity level is increasing. I am glad that we found one another when we did and the infection didn't have a chance to set in harder. His timidness is also diminishing. Another few days and he is going to be keeping up with his sister without difficulty.

How do these dogs do with obedience training? We are working on 'sit' right now. They seem eager to learn and please. How soon do we begin the basic heel commands and leash work? I'm used to dealing with tough cattle dogs and pig headed schnauzers.

Names? Bubba and Sassy seem to have stuck with them. The female is already barking at strangers and seems to have an opinion of everything and isn't afraid to voice it.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:05 pm

RayG, is that predator instinct easily controlled in them? We have three rabbit munchers now who keep the bunnies out of my garden quite effectively....too effectively sometimes and our border collie likes to hunt raccoons.

These two will not be lacking in love. It's amazing to watch them blossom.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by TraditionsGSPs2010 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:07 pm

Love hearing those two hit the lottery after what they went through! It doesn't sound like they could have ended up with better folks.

As far as advise goes... If you've owed some variety of our four legged friends for 59 years, I'm sure you have seen it or done it. Pointers can be mighty leggy so you might watch the open spaces.

Great luck to you all!

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by DonF » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:46 pm

Bless your heart mudpuppy! Couple of lucky pup's! What did you name them?

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Winchey » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:00 pm

I'll echo the rest, just treat them as you did your other dogs. They may need a bit more excersise and may run a bit bigger than your other dogs but other than that they aren't much different.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by SubMariner » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:20 am

mudpuppy wrote: How do these dogs do with obedience training? We are working on 'sit' right now. They seem eager to learn and please. How soon do we begin the basic heel commands and leash work? I'm used to dealing with tough cattle dogs and pig headed schnauzers.
No problems with obedience. In fact, I'd recommend it.

Bonne chance,

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:39 am

Bubba and Sassy are doing fantastic! Bubba's feet are healing well and he is perking up. With the resolution of the infection, he is becoming more outgoing and we have enjoyed seeing frequent wrestling matches between him and his sister. Sassy has more energy than should be legal for any dog. We are working on Sit for treats and the pair seem very eager students.

This morning my husband observed them 'pointing' one of our cats.

We are really enjoying these two.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:29 am

You are great mudpuppy! Don't let these two "free run" untill they are well socialized and obey the "here" command 90% of the time. Don't let them run together. I have paid the price several times for that boneheaded idea. For some reason brother and sister get bold and adventurious when they run together. You may need to fence a back yard or build a dog run.

I wish you the best. :D :D

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:11 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You are great mudpuppy! Don't let these two "free run" untill they are well socialized and obey the "here" command 90% of the time. Don't let them run together. I have paid the price several times for that boneheaded idea. For some reason brother and sister get bold and adventurious when they run together. You may need to fence a back yard or build a dog run.

I wish you the best. :D :D
Many thanks, AZ. Question; will the three older dogs have any effect on their wanderlust? They have a set territory marked out. We have watched them move about and they never move past a given point unless we are with them. The three older dogs enjoy walks in the woods with us, but they are older and as the old adage goes, can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Will the pups stick with their housemates or strike out on their own if given the opportunity?

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by duckn66 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:16 pm

God bless you! They are lucky they found you and you are lucky to have them! Just shower them with love and attention and I'm going to go out on a limb here but just because they are hunting dogs does not by any means mean you HAVE to let them do what they were bred for.

As mentioned earlier I would be careful about letting them just run on their own. They will have the urge to run and hunt, with our without you and will eventually get themselves into trouble. Obedience train them and get them a strong recall and you will be fine.

I'd love to have a whack at whoever dumped them!!!!!! I can't imagine what was going through their minds at the time. Makes me sick to my stomach.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:44 pm

mudpuppy wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You are great mudpuppy! Don't let these two "free run" untill they are well socialized and obey the "here" command 90% of the time. Don't let them run together. I have paid the price several times for that boneheaded idea. For some reason brother and sister get bold and adventurious when they run together. You may need to fence a back yard or build a dog run.

I wish you the best. :D :D
Many thanks, AZ. Question; will the three older dogs have any effect on their wanderlust? They have a set territory marked out. We have watched them move about and they never move past a given point unless we are with them. The three older dogs enjoy walks in the woods with us, but they are older and as the old adage goes, can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Will the pups stick with their housemates or strike out on their own if given the opportunity?
mudpuppy wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You are great mudpuppy! Don't let these two "free run" untill they are well socialized and obey the "here" command 90% of the time. Don't let them run together. I have paid the price several times for that boneheaded idea. For some reason brother and sister get bold and adventurious when they run together. You may need to fence a back yard or build a dog run.

I wish you the best. :D :D
Many thanks, AZ. Question; will the three older dogs have any effect on their wanderlust? They have a set territory marked out. We have watched them move about and they never move past a given point unless we are with them. The three older dogs enjoy walks in the woods with us, but they are older and as the old adage goes, can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Will the pups stick with their housemates or strike out on their own if given the opportunity?
Threre are always possibilities. The other dogs could influence their desire to roam, but pointers are hardwired to cover ground. It is entirely possible, and my best guess that they could and will influence the rest of the gang to go exploring with them and that would not be good. Pointers will chase all manner of fur if they are allowed and have been known to pull down deer. As I said, they are accomplished predators...it is in the genes. I would begin play training and working with the dogs sooner rather than later. The female sounds like now actually. An electronic shock collar is a VERY good investment when it comes to enforcing commands at a distance.

RayG

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:59 pm

Thanks Ray, we do have a high quality set of three shock collars that we used trying to dissuade our older dogs from chasing Amish buggies. It worked on the ACD and Schnauzer but the Border Collie had little effect from it even on it's highest setting. I suspect it stems from her earlier abuse history.

Guess it's time to get them out and start charging them up. We do have a lot of deer on our property but my main concern would be with them 'visiting' some of our Amish neighbors and having at their livestock, mainly sheep, goats and chickens.

I was wondering at what age they should begin training. So far we are doing the sit command and return with the enthusiastic "Puppy Puppy Puppy" while slapping the ground. They seem receptive.

When should we start leash training?

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:04 pm

MP,

My adopted pointer was dumped at the shelter because she "ran away too much." She was a year old and had been running off the property for months - was found 3 miles from home the last time. She is now the most reliable of my dogs with a "recall." I say here and she snaps to it. That took a lot of work. However, free roaming birddogs is just not a good idea. Our other english pointer (13 years old) has been with us since 8 weeks old - she still occasionally slips through our *maximum security confinement grid* - and takes off for hours if she gets out without anyone noticing. Sometimes it's nothing more than me letting her out to pee and she just gets a wild hair and takes off. These birddogs just want to go and go. You can't "teach" them to stay in the yard. Fences are the best bet for you. We do keep a concrete kennel for them for when we're gone. They, like the ACD's (which I grew up with), are very high energy and prefer to have a job. Working birds and hunting is a good job, but if you can't do that - just get them on out there and let them run off some energy. All of our dogs go through some level of obedience training - Pointers are one well-kept secret - they can be couch potatoes and they are very obedient in most cases. Mine know most obedience commands plus more house things like "blanket" and "out" and "shake". Stuff like that. They are smart animals!

Here's one of our "shelter" pointer. She's a squinter in the full sun.
image715[1].jpg
image715[1].jpg (10.71 KiB) Viewed 13016 times

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:41 pm

I see more fencing in our future....

We have three sided 5 strand barb wire on our periphery, the front of the property is open to the gravel road. Looks like it is due to be fenced in with Keystone and a gate.

Right now they are confined to a fenced in back yard when they are outside. We also have a pretty large kennel planned for them so we can turn our backs without worry while they are out. Our ACD is a Houdini dog and has been known to chew through chain link fence in order to go after a rabbit he might see in the nearby field. We finally thwarted his wanderlust with cattle paneling.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:12 pm

mudpuppy wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You are great mudpuppy! Don't let these two "free run" untill they are well socialized and obey the "here" command 90% of the time. Don't let them run together. I have paid the price several times for that boneheaded idea. For some reason brother and sister get bold and adventurious when they run together. You may need to fence a back yard or build a dog run.

I wish you the best. :D :D
Many thanks, AZ. Question; will the three older dogs have any effect on their wanderlust? They have a set territory marked out. We have watched them move about and they never move past a given point unless we are with them. The three older dogs enjoy walks in the woods with us, but they are older and as the old adage goes, can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Will the pups stick with their housemates or strike out on their own if given the opportunity?
The quick answer is; I don't think so. Most pointing breeds are inclined to hunt independently (read English Pointers) unless their is a strong bond with their master.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by cohanzick creek » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:32 am

Heartwarming what a great act of kindness. Good luck. The pups are lucky they found you
cc

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:40 pm

cohanzick creek wrote:Heartwarming what a great act of kindness. Good luck. The pups are lucky they found you
cc
Thanks, but I think we were the lucky ones. These two little outlaws have given us a lot of smiles since we found them. We went home for lunch today and discovered that the little girl had climbed over their security gate (double height) that was supposed to keep them in the kitchen. She was merrily running with the adult dogs and quite pleased with herself. More than we and her brother were pleased with her. :D

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:54 pm

mudpuppy wrote:
cohanzick creek wrote:Heartwarming what a great act of kindness. Good luck. The pups are lucky they found you
cc
Thanks, but I think we were the lucky ones. These two little outlaws have given us a lot of smiles since we found them. We went home for lunch today and discovered that the little girl had climbed over their security gate (double height) that was supposed to keep them in the kitchen. She was merrily running with the adult dogs and quite pleased with herself. More than we and her brother were pleased with her. :D
She sounds like a piece of work :twisted: Good luck and have fun :!: :D

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Neil » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:15 pm

Train and run them separately for now, puppies are prone to hooking up and going over the hill.

Good luck.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:34 pm

Neil wrote:Train and run them separately for now, puppies are prone to hooking up and going over the hill.

Good luck.
Good advice. With house training we are beginning to notice that they do better if we take them outside seperately. Together they start romping and playing and forget about what they are supposed to be doing. Alone with the adult dogs, they tend to follow the leader and concentrate a little better.

This is the first time I have attempted to house break two pups at the same time. It's a challenge.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Stoneface » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:44 pm

You guys are awesome. I hope your good deed comes back to you in spades.

Do you have any other photos of them? They don't look like Pointers to me.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:29 pm

New pics are in the works. Our vet thinks they are probably pointers. We are a little curious about their coats, though, as they look a little thicker than a slick coated dogs would be. The little female is definitely pointing at birds she sees when she is outside and is continuing to point at our cats. The little boy is still too much into wiggles and kisses to be interested in anything else.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:54 am

Okay, here are two new pics taken yesterday of the pups. The first pic is Bubba, the second is Sassy.

Image
Image

I've had some folks speculate that they have some spaniel in them but to me the ears don't match up. I'm still leaning towards Black and White Pointers but Still wondering if there is another gundog breed in the mix.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:05 am

If they came into the shelter, we'd likely call them border collie/english pointer crosses. They've got the "sort-of" short hair of a pointer, the face of a pointer, but the markings of a BC - and the "look" of a BC. It's all guesswork with the youngsters though. Definitely not the markings of an english pointer except for the dot on Sassy's head and a bit of the facial markings (though they look pretty BC to me). I bet they'll be smart dogs for sure! They are beautiful pups. All of our BC's growing up would "point" birds before they'd herd them.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by deseeker » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:51 am

To me they look like they have some border collie in them.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:25 pm

I wouldn't be displeased with that mix. I look at different pics on the web of bird dogs and they sortakinda have that English pointer look about them and then I see smooth coated Border Collie pics and go...hmmmmmmm.

At least having raised an abandoned BC pup who is now about to turn 9 and a fabulous dog. I will know what to expect as far as trainability and personality are concerned. We will just have to sort through the Pointer part of the equation as they mature.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:36 pm

Are any of you folks familiar with Stephens Stock Mountain Cur hunting dogs? I've had that possibility raised as to these two's possible heritage. There are a lot of Mountain Cur's in Missouri so it wouldn't be too outrageous a possibility.

We weighed them yesterday. Bubba has gained three pounds in a week and Sassy 2 so they are thriving and happy. Their true heritage may be a mystery until they get a little maturity on them but it is fun to do the research at this point and try to figure out just exactly what they could be.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:50 pm

I agree with the others who think they are border collie x pointer.

Bill T.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Aslowhiteguy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:47 pm

What a great story and it's so kind of you to take them in and give them good care and a nice home. We can only hope that those were the only two those scumbags dumped.

Thank you for sharing your story. Best of luck.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:10 pm

Update on our pups!

Well, Sassy and Bubba are officially 6 months old and have been labeled as Pointer/Smooth Coat Border Collie mixes. They are healthy, happy and hand fulls.

Sassy seems to have more pointer instincts and is continuously going to point on our family felines and then poking them with her nose trying to 'flush' them. It seems to be quite instinctive with her and when outside, her nose is to the ground and off she goes. I would like to teach her some basic hunting skills....not quite sure where to start refining her instincts as these are our first pointers. I'm not a bird hunter....yet. She may make me take up the sport LOL.

Bubba is more Border Collie. He fixes the cats with a stare and holds it but is also trying to point. Neither are going to be pointer sized dogs. Sassy is around 28 pounds and Bubba 35 but they sure have the pointer instincts.

Sooooo all of you who pegged them as Pointer/BC mixes were right on the mark.

NOW WHAT DO WE DO WITH THEM! :lol:

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:52 pm

Mudpuppy,

Not too sure where you're located, but the Columbia Canine Sports Center has some awesome classes for all types. It's an hour drive for me, but I always find it worthwhile. They did a flushing spaniel clinic last weekend that I brought my Chessie to - it was great. They have nosework classes, rally, agility, obedience, etc., etc. Lots of fun classes to be had there.

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Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by Fester » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:53 pm

Mudpuppy, The dogs look great, after reading the story of the rescue I think I should be asking you for advise on how to care for a dog, you and the dogs are gonna have a wonderful time together I can see that. :wink:
Fester

mudpuppy
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: North Eastern Missouri

Re: Help? Not to proud to ask!

Post by mudpuppy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:41 am

Roostersmom, we are in the northeastern part of MO so Columbia is a bit of a drive for us. I'm hoping to do some 'do it yourself' training on them. Just not quite sure where to start.

They are starting to hunt on their own mainly thanks to our Australian Cattle Dog who jumped two young rabbits in our pasture,claimed one for dinner and disabled the other one we suspect for the pups. Bubba dispatched it to Bunny Heaven and they carried the poor thing around trading it back and forth with his sister until it was finally devoured. Last weekend, Sassy went to ground and dug up a vole. She wouldn't eat it but they had a time with it even after it was quite dead and smelling to high heaven.

It would be interesting to see if they could be trained to point out rabbits. I'm not a bird hunter. We have few quail and no pheasants on our property but we do have turkeys that are more pets than prey. The female is still pointing our cats regularly. She doesn't harm them. Just fixes them with this unbreakable stare, every muscle tense and holds the point until we literally pick her up and move her to another room. At times, if we tell her to 'break' she will pounce and poke the focus of her interest with her nose. She is smart and eager to learn.

Thanks Fester. These two have been both a challenge and a joy. It's been fun watching them grow and develop into fine young dogs.

Now if I could just teach them that cats don't have feathers and AREN'T rabbits I'd have it made! :D

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