Do you respect the animals you hunt?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:05 pm

I was watching some videos tonight on YouTube about hunting with hounds. Coons, Coyotes, hog dogs. In the world of hunting, especially with dogs, it seems like there are at least two very distinct takes on the animals that are hunted. A lot of people really have regard for the animals and seem to believe that just because you take an animal doesn't mean you should let it suffer. Others seem to have absolutely no regard for the animals whatsoever. What I mean by the second group is, for a example, a video I saw on YouTube where some guys were hunting coyotes in Nebraska and had shot one in the flank. They were laughing and carrying on while the dogs kept after the dog and really drug it out. One guy even came up and kicked the coyote to get it to move so the dogs would get back on it. A lot of folks wouldn't have done that, they'd have just killed the coyote and called it done.

Where do you stand? Do animals not matter in your opinion? Do they not have feelings? Do they deserve some kind of respect and/or regard?

mask · Post by **mask** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:15 pm

I have the utmost respect for the animals and birds I hunt but animals are not sentient beings.

WillieELk78GSP · Post by **WillieELk78GSP** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:45 pm

Wow that is sad to hear, when I hunt I try for a one shot situation not to Make the animal suffer, if I saw that with my own eyes I think I would have to say something and or if the animal is not dead already put it out of it misery.
I wish this wasn't even question. This is why some people think hunting is cruel because of immoral people like that.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:59 am

Anybody that does not respect the animal should not be allowed to dishonor it by hunting it. Doesn't matter if its a big game animal or a sage rat!

markj · Post by **markj** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:32 am

There are a lot of cruel folks out there, best not waste any of your life being around them. I sure wouldnt be proud of any video like that. Sure wouldnt put it out in the public domain. Shows the true character of the person. No life should be tortured in its death or otherwise. Now if someone did that in my hunting party they would find out what it is like to be knocked unconsious and his guns taken away, then a call to 911. The warden would know if he broke any laws and would fine him accordingly.

I seen some cruel folks, wont put up with them nor let my son get messed up like they are. My nephew witnessed an act of cruelty on a hunt and I regret taking him with the guys since I never hunted with them. I told the guy off and we left them right there in the field. My nephew was 10 and he was crying as we left, I had to talk to him for awhile to make him understand the guy was a whacko and needed help with his anger.

Dont do anything your Grandma would think is unpleasant. Stick to that and your life will be a good one.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:44 am

Ethics, they say, is best indicated by our actions when no one is looking...much harder now with video tools in nearly every pocket.
Respect for a game critter is much the same.
Today, many actions afield are justified by imagined greater issues than the immediate moment.
That is exactly the reason why I recognize fewer and fewer folks that carry a hunter/shooter union card.
Too many fail to appreciate and understand the importance of the immediate moment.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:14 am

Like my Grandpa used to say, "some people aren't worth the lead it'd take to blow 'em to h*%#." I think most hunters do it for the right reasons and conduct themselves respectfully. Too bad there has to creeps like that out there.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:20 am

treat another beings death as if it were your own demise.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:21 am

I have another question to lay over top of the original. Are those of us who use birds in training unmoral because of the way we use them? For example, I worked for a retriever trainer who would put a litter of pups in a big ex pen then pull the flight feathers off of a pigeon and throw him in the pen with the puppies to let them do what they want with him. Other folks will throw a live quail down and let a pup or a couple of pups just chew on him and tear him up. Or the way you'll lock a pigeon's wings and turn a dog loose to try and increase birdiness. Are we wrong?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:35 am

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:54 am

Stoneface wrote:I have another question to lay over top of the original. Are those of us who use birds in training unmoral because of the way we use them? For example, I worked for a retriever trainer who would put a litter of pups in a big ex pen then pull the flight feathers off of a pigeon and throw him in the pen with the puppies to let them do what they want with him. Other folks will throw a live quail down and let a pup or a couple of pups just chew on him and tear him up. Or the way you'll lock a pigeon's wings and turn a dog loose to try and increase birdiness. Are we wrong?

Catch and release fly traps come to mind...

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:17 am

Dogs pretty much kill things. It seems it is only unethical if somebody else is doing it. I'm quite sure the pigeon does not enjoy having his wings locked and getting ripped to shreds, just to improve prey drive.
We always let our coon hounds fight the coons or what ever else they catch. sometimes it's pretty ugly. My dogs kill coyotes fairly regularly in the west. We allow it. The dogs like it and so do we. The coyotes don't much care for it. I guess I think it is unethical and the older I get the less I like it.
Cj

asc · Post by **asc** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:29 am

Best way to train a deer dog is to break down a doe(shoot the back legs out) and let the puppies catch it.

We are quick to cut it's throat after they catch.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:34 am

I actually think its a fair question, but I would view that more like teaching "young " to hunt. Its a training phase like a momma bobcat bringing wounded game back for the young. That said it should be as fair and quick as is possible. I don't let puppies tear birds apart on purpose. Some munching may occur but as soon as I see the desire drive and confidence that's all I need to know. I Prefer puppies to be on lead ropes for bird intro so I can get the bird back gently and fairly quickly. Retrievers and flushing dogs need more "catch " desire... but I also counter that I believe birds have an innate "shutdown " and is why they can be "put to sleep." A reaction to stress that triggers a shock response that causes them to mentallly quit and go into a shock state. If the stress continues they die quickly on their own. That is not license to be overly cruel, but I believe it God's way of balencing things a bit for the prey animal. Predators like coyotes and you and me are generally fighters and not prone to quit. Takes long periods of stress and severe pain or true metabolic shock to bring it on. .... those are just my rambling thoughts though.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:44 am

Mountaindogs, that's a pretty interesting idea. I wonder if anyone has ever done any kind of research on that or anything. I know horse trainers will sometimes grab a hand-full of neck skin when a horse acts up because it naturally releases endorphins and calms them. They say it's a natural reflex because you grabbing the neck like that is symbolic of a predator grasping on and the endorphins help the horse accept deather better, calming them.

Just an FYI, everything I'm saying is totally devil's advocate. I'm not condoning or condeming anything. Just curious how everyone stands.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Ethics, they say, is best indicated by our actions when no one is looking...much harder now with video tools in nearly every pocket.
Respect for a game critter is much the same.
Today, many actions afield are justified by imagined greater issues than the immediate moment.
That is exactly the reason why I recognize fewer and fewer folks that carry a hunter/shooter union card.
Too many fail to appreciate and understand the importance of the immediate moment.

Absolutely! One of my favourite posts was by Doug Favour. He posted a picture of his dog on point as a pair of birds flew off in front of him. He didn't shoot; he said he "didn't want to shoot at a pair". Thumbs up to Doug.

nwnick · Post by **nwnick** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:58 pm

Absolutely, one should respect the animals they hunt or the fish they catch. Shouldn't matter if it's a mourning dove or a turkey, sage rat or 6 pt trophy bull, smallmouth bass or King Salmon.
Like others have mentioned in reply here I once hunted with a group that I was invited to join for a deer hunt and one member had killed "mistakenly" a small toe head blacktail and was going to leave it where it was until I made him pack it out and we found a trooper to turn it over to. The guy was cited rightfully so and I never hunted with that group again.

The priviledge of the hunt has been passed on to us by our fathers or grandfathers and I feel we owe the same responsibility to our kids as well. I live in a state that has banned cougar and bear hunting with dogs , aided in a large part by videos ran during the voting season courtesy of PETA of bears and dogs being mauled by dogs. That did a tremendous amount of damage to those who hunted these animals ethically. I only wonder how long until they focus on bird hunting and training with live birds?

I recently had the priviledge to volunteer for a youth pheasant hunt and guided 2 young men ages 12 and 14 along wiht their non hunting father and it was quite an experience. WE had a blast, the kids obeyed all the rules I set down admirably and were absolute perfect hunting partners.
I asked them if they ate all the birds they kileed and they said yes, their mother cooks everything they harvest.

This is an interesting question and it has sparked a good thread. Remember as someone above said ethics are how we conduct ourselves when nobody is watching, but it doesn't stop there. Ethics also reflect in the stories we tell when others are listening too.

BigTub · Post by **BigTub** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:25 pm

THERE IS A DANGEROUS LINE HERE. Don't you think that PETA members think that our bird dogs running down a crippled bird is gruesome? What about hobbling a bird so it won't run during training? What about using live birds for training at all?

I don't trap or chase game with dogs but I do support those that do. I don't beleive in letting animals suffer but when you start defining legal limits, that is a slippery slope.

mask · Post by **mask** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:40 pm

BigTub wrote:THERE IS A DANGEROUS LINE HERE. Don't you think that PETA members think that our bird dogs running down a crippled bird is gruesome? What about hobbling a bird so it won't run during training? What about using live birds for training at all?

I don't trap or chase game with dogs but I do support those that do. I don't beleive in letting animals suffer but when you start defining legal limits, that is a slippery slope.

Yep, peta and hsus are always looking for recruits.

Tyler S · Post by **Tyler S** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:19 pm

Define hunting? Define animal/evasive/ predator control?
I think demographics has a lot to do with opinions here. I hunt indigenous game animals and have the upmost respect. I kill (wild hog/coyote) with little thought...ie the grey fox is indigenous here,I've only shot one in 43 years ( which is legal here)

There IS a dangerous line and a very different set of standards and opinions when it comes to such a complex question.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:00 pm

I have the utmost respect for all the animals taken by me. All my shots on big game are placed for an instant kill. No non lethal shots are ever taken. In the bird world shots are placed to kill if I believe a shot will ot be good I let it go. And the times when I do wing a bird, I have trouble taking its life by hand. I'm just a softy when it comes to that. Training birds like pigeons and quail are no different. I've learned not to get attached, but some pigeons I have I just can't shoot but great for fly aways. I hunt because I love the outdoors and I love the HUNT in hunting. Scouting for that bruiser, and then taking him later, or walking the fields, forest, for them tucked in birds with a fine dog is something I enjoy more then anything in the world. And if it wasn't for them game animals I wouldn't be able to do it. So I respect them for giving me that hunt and their lives, and darn good meat in return.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:32 am

We ran coyote hounds for years, some yote were shot as they crossed open fields, so were caught by the dogs and many were hit in less than fatal areas and the dogs finished the job........ we didn't necessarily enjoy the catch but it it is a thrill to watch a pack of bounds do their job. The last couple years we had guys who brought stag hounds,greyhounds and other sight dogs and they were rough on yotes.

I will say there are a few animals I hunt that are little more than reactive targets, coyotes being one and prairie dogs being the other. I lose a few head of live stock a year to coyotes so I see them a little differently.

Other than the occasional doe for the freezer all I care to hunt is birds so I view them with a ton of respect.

I suppose how we feel about a critter depends heavily on why we per sue it in the first place.

Jim

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:02 am

I'm not much of a killer. I don't kill my training birds. I would be just as happy with a camera and working the dog for someone in the duck blind. I like working wild birds with a blank gun as much as hunting.

I also like eating meat. I think of wild game as the ultimate free range. Not much for killing vermin or predators though, too soft I guess.

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:30 am

I expose the young pups to a live quail usually in a way it can run away, this leads to a chase. I also put the birds in a cage so the dogs cant get to them. Then after they are on birds I release one quail let dog run after it and shoot the bird far enough away the gun shot doesnt upset the dog. Seems to work well for me so far. Dont use pigions now as I dont have room for em. Birdyness should be a natural thing, pup watches birds fly by and gives chase etc. Dont need to let them destroy a bird to get that out of them. In my opinion which is worth nothing, not even a cup of joe

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:52 am

I have a very high respect of all animals I hunt. In fact there are times, there is a little sadness when I take big game animal. For the animal and the hunt is over. I sit there sometimes and reflect over the hunt and the animal I have taken. It is all in the hunt for me, that it is what I enjoy most. I know coyotes cause a lot of problems for sheep and cattle. But, I would take no pleasure in in a pack of hounds tearing a coyote a part while it is alive. That is total lack of respect for that animal and the hunt as far as I am concerned. Yes, the chase would be exciting but to see an animal torn apart come on. I live in Nebraska and I have real problem with the way these coyote hunters, hunt with hounds. They drive across fields, tear down fences and watch there dogs tear a coyote apart. It really gives hunters a bad name. Because most people do not differentiate between this type of hunter (I use the term loosely) and the hunter who goes out hunting for deer, pheasant, elk etc. Whether you agree with me or not it is just my perspective.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:24 am

I have thrown a live bird down for a pup but it's seldom and so long ago I don't recall when. I have done a bunch of hunting without a gun other than a blank gun and I never shoot singles or at coveys of four or less unless they were part a a bigger covey I recently broke up.

I eat meat but i see no reason to disrespect it in the killing process. We have really short bird population's any more around here. Two small covey's of quail and one covey of huns down the river. Haven't shot one down there in years. I do pull flight feather's on pigeons when I think I need to. I also hobble those and tie a string to the hobble to get the bird up before the dog can get it. I don't plant pigeons anymore by putting them to sleep but rather they are in either a remote trap or dog's farther along get foot traps. Quail I release by just turning them loose to fly where they may. I seldom ever hunt pheasants, lot's better tasting birds in my opinion. Gave up ducks years ago. Not many wild ones worth eating I don't think.

Somewhere along the way to who I am today, the kill became much less important, I like the watch the play between the dog and the bird. If you like to kill them, so be it. I used to like that myself. I'm old now and if I kill the bird I have to carry it out and have to clean it later. The best birds to eat are those out of the flight pen that have no shot in them.

I think that people that like to hunt never actually see the dog until they get the killing out of their system and that's not all bad!

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:36 am

As a point of reference, here is the video of the coyote hunters I saw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMbEOsRgY0

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:53 am

You described it....why would I, or anyone, care to watch it?

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:21 am

I watched it...... I didn't listen to it though. From what I saw I really didn't see anything I would get real wound up about. Without knowing anything other than what I saw those looked like s pair of young dogs that needed some encouragement not much different than s pup on s pigeon. I wouldn't have kicked the yote myself, but then again I wouldn't have taped it either. To each his own.

Jim

asc · Post by **asc** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:47 pm

nwnick wrote:Absolutely, one should respect the animals they hunt or the fish they catch. Shouldn't matter if it's a mourning dove or a turkey, sage rat or 6 pt trophy bull, smallmouth bass or King Salmon.
Like others have mentioned in reply here I once hunted with a group that I was invited to join for a deer hunt and one member had killed "mistakenly" a small toe head blacktail and was going to leave it where it was until I made him pack it out and we found a trooper to turn it over to. The guy was cited rightfully so and I never hunted with that group again.

The priviledge of the hunt has been passed on to us by our fathers or grandfathers and I feel we owe the same responsibility to our kids as well. I live in a state that has banned cougar and bear hunting with dogs , aided in a large part by videos ran during the voting season courtesy of PETA of bears and dogs being mauled by dogs. That did a tremendous amount of damage to those who hunted these animals ethically. I only wonder how long until they focus on bird hunting and training with live birds?

I recently had the priviledge to volunteer for a youth pheasant hunt and guided 2 young men ages 12 and 14 along wiht their non hunting father and it was quite an experience. WE had a blast, the kids obeyed all the rules I set down admirably and were absolute perfect hunting partners.
I asked them if they ate all the birds they kileed and they said yes, their mother cooks everything they harvest.

This is an interesting question and it has sparked a good thread. Remember as someone above said ethics are how we conduct ourselves when nobody is watching, but it doesn't stop there. Ethics also reflect in the stories we tell when others are listening too.

Who are you to judge ethics, or other methods of hunting? You wonder how long before PETA focuses on birds and training? Just look in the mirror, we are our own worst enemy.

asc · Post by **asc** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:53 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:I have a very high respect of all animals I hunt. In fact there are times, there is a little sadness when I take big game animal. For the animal and the hunt is over. I sit there sometimes and reflect over the hunt and the animal I have taken. It is all in the hunt for me, that it is what I enjoy most. I know coyotes cause a lot of problems for sheep and cattle. But, I would take no pleasure in in a pack of hounds tearing a coyote a part while it is alive. That is total lack of respect for that animal and the hunt as far as I am concerned. Yes, the chase would be exciting but to see an animal torn apart come on. I live in Nebraska and I have real problem with the way these coyote hunters, hunt with hounds. They drive across fields, tear down fences and watch there dogs tear a coyote apart. It really gives hunters a bad name. Because most people do not differentiate between this type of hunter (I use the term loosely) and the hunter who goes out hunting for deer, pheasant, elk etc. Whether you agree with me or not it is just my perspective.

I have found that all types of hunters tear down fences, trespass, and poach. It's not just one method of hunting that creates problems.. Ask any enviro group, they can't all be wrong.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:59 pm

asc wrote:...You wonder how long before PETA focuses on birds and training? Just look in the mirror, we are our own worst enemy.

Yes...especially so when we choose to remain blind and correspondingly quiet regarding the bad actors in any group.
Allowing those folks to define ourselves to others who are either ignorant or uninformed or burdened with an agenda..... is shortsighted and limiting.
Happens far too often and in far too many areas past hunters today.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:20 pm

Not good from a PR standpoint, my impression after the the first 30 seconds was that the yote should have been dead about 45 seconds previous.

Locally we lost the ability to hunt coyotes with dogs, when a film was made of the process. I have not seen it, it was described as a bloody process, but now we are stuck with an up hill battle to get pack dogs and on leash tracking dogs legalized.

The making of food is never a pretty process, there is no need to drag it out.

asc · Post by **asc** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:11 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
asc wrote:...You wonder how long before PETA focuses on birds and training? Just look in the mirror, we are our own worst enemy.

Yes...especially so when we choose to remain blind and correspondingly quiet regarding the bad actors in any group.
Allowing those folks to define ourselves to others who are either ignorant or uninformed or burdened with an agenda..... is shortsighted and limiting.
Happens far too often and in far too many areas past hunters today.

I'm glad you didn't just single out hound hunters as did others. Yes the guy kicking the yote is an idiot but I can witness just as distasteful(IMO) actions in the whooping, high five, belly bumping behavior being shown on the so called hunting shows on tv.

I just get ticked off when some yahoo comments and condemns a method of hunting that they know squat about except for some obscure youtube video.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:10 pm

aulrich wrote:Not good from a PR standpoint, my impression after the the first 30 seconds was that the yote should have been dead about 45 seconds previous.

Locally we lost the ability to hunt coyotes with dogs, when a film was made of the process. I have not seen it, it was described as a bloody process, but now we are stuck with an up hill battle to get pack dogs and on leash tracking dogs legalized.

The making of food is never a pretty process, there is no need to drag it out.

The uphill battle you speak of has absolutely nothing to do with the coyote hound situation.

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