Gun Dog Forum

I was reading over the posts to the other thread about whether or not you respect the animals you hunt and the segment talking about PETA got me to thinking about their extreme ways and that they wouldn't just be against the way hunters treat the game they take, but also the dogs they use to take the game.

So, here's the question. Do you 'respect' your dogs? Is your dog a member of the family and sleeps in the bed with you or is he just an instrument that either earns his kibble or is being dropped from the kennel? It's funny how some folks just let their dogs walk all over them then scoff at the people who have a heavy training hand for being too hard on their dogs then other have a heavy training hand and scoff at the people who offer no structure because they let their dogs walk all over them. Where are you at on the spectrum?

One subject that has always confused me was the idea of conventional kennels. You know, the ol' 5x10 slab with chain link panels. I liken it to a person being confined to a bathroom with the occasional let outside for an hour or so or just to go to work for a few hours. Hard surfaces, small, nothing to mentally stimulate you or help you kill time. In my head I just can't even begin to consider how much life would out and out suck in a kennel. To me the monotony and stagnation of life in a kennel is cruel in and of itself. But, there are plenty of dogs who have lived in kennels for years and they seem to adjust well to it. When it's time to go back to the kennel after a hunt or workout or training, they just trot right in. I think I'll always be torn on this subject. If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this I'd really like to hear them in addition to the main subject.

dogs spend 16 t0 20 hours a day sleeping so if the get out for some exercise they are fine, even dogs who live in the house sleep most of the time. Cj

Stoneface wrote:To me the monotony and stagnation of life in a kennel is cruel in and of itself.

You have to get out of the mindset that dogs, cattle, horses, cats, etc. have the same emotional reactions/needs that humans do. Sure the far left and a far right spectrum contain the extremes. My hunting/field trial dogs live at my house, outside in a nice covered kennel run with a heated dog house. They get human interaction multiple times daily and for me (and them) that is enough, that is their "home" and they like it. I have seen no difference in them vs. the pampered house/family dog when it hits the field...actually IMO the ones that have the caviar lifestyle have a little less power and grit in the field, again, just my opinion.

Not sure what this has to do respect but that kennel is the dogs home. So if you are going to compare it to something human you need to compare it to your house and yard.

But I just have trouble comparing a dogs life to a humans life when they are so different in practically every way. If you are trying to equate respect to humane then I know where you are coming from but other than that I just don't quite get where you are coming from.

Ezzy

I take care of my dog's physical needs of health, sustenance and shelter.
I try to provide for fulfillment of their genetic blessings by offering opportunities for them to quest and discover.
I never insult by equating them to either a hammer or a species that is simply acting out those genetics, regardless of me.
I hope I fulfill any emotional tugs that each canine may feel from a developed close association with humans over Time.
I know I appreciate what every one of them does for themselves or for me, when I ask.
For all that and more, I respect my dogs....Yes.

So dogs that don't sleep in bed with you are just "tools"?

Dude you got way to much spare time.

ACooper wrote:So dogs that don't sleep in bed with you are just "tools"?

Dude you got way to much spare time.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you say...

ANTHROPOMORPHISM

Dogs are NOT humans. To treat them or consider them as such is fraught with all sorts of problems, some for the human(s) involved...but mostly it will be problems for the dog.

RayG

I show respect for an animal by providing everything it needs to be healthy and happy - food, water , den, vet care, exercise , kindness, attention, and an opportunity to be what he/she was bred to do.

http://cooperativedog.com/articles/dogs ... people.htm

I agree with the fact that dogs spend a lot of time sleeping also though when I started a few years back putting my dogs outside I found they were actually seemed happier. If people want to compare to human qualities while I was at work they had more to keep them entertained by being intrigued by things going on outside. I found my lab was a lot more eager to go duck hunting in my opinion it was because she is outside and more acclimated to the cold. I was more willing to let them get out and have more fun in the pond, river mud or what ever because I did not have to worry about washing them off before going in the house.

Stoneface wrote:If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this I'd really like to hear them in addition to the main subject.

Are you for real or just bored and trolling?

I have a four year old shorthair that has lived in the house since he was a pup, but not necessarily because he or I would like for him to. My wife and I currently live in another apartment while we build a house. We went on vacation last year and left him with a friend who has a few other shorthairs. While my dog was there he could go in and out as he pleased through the doggie door. He would spend almost all day outside. At night they had to call him in and close the door so he wouldn't stay out all night. He would rather live outside.

My dogs are members of the family and treated as such. With that said they are still dogs, "whiskey for my man before my horses".
To say dogs that live in the kennel is cruel is absurd. What do dogs do 95% of the time.. sleep. So whether they are in the house or in a clean kennel that's what they are going to do. I've lived with dogs in the kennel for years and they got no less attention then the mutt that lives in my house. Yes there are some people who put dogs in kennels and forget about them until hunting season arrives and those are the people chasing their dog around in the field and not getting any birds bagged. Their loss not mine or yours. To judge something you have no experience living or based on only one person's setup is discriminate.
As far as my dogs go after a hunt they are not running back to the kennel they run around the yard while I unload the truck, I kennel them for food and water. Otherwise they won't eat, they'll just get tired of playing or following me around and go straight to the dog house and sleep. That's just what dogs do. Sleep, sleep, sleep. Remember ol' Blue?

To take notice of; to regard with special attention; to regard as worthy of special consideration; hence, to care for; to heed.
[imp. & p. p. Respected; p. pr. & vb. n. Respecting.]

Thou respectest not spilling Edward's blood.
- Shak.

In orchards and gardens, we do not so much respect beauty as variety of ground for fruits, trees, and herbs.
- Bacon.

2. To consider worthy of esteem; to regard with honor.

How can you have any respect for a dog that is looking to hookup with every little bitch that he can find whether he knows her or not and then makes no effort to support the pups? :roll:

Maybe we should have a topic about whether you think they should be able to have dog marriage or not. Or how about drawing Social Security even though they might be illegal immigrants.

Ezzy

RayGubernat wrote:Can you say...

ANTHROPOMORPHISM

Dogs are NOT humans. To treat them or consider them as such is fraught with all sorts of problems, some for the human(s) involved...but mostly it will be problems for the dog.

RayG

Rowdy look it up that's the main reason shelters are full

Really? Are a lot of parents dropping their kids off at homeless shelters?

DonF wrote:

ACooper wrote:So dogs that don't sleep in bed with you are just "tools"?

Dude you got way to much spare time.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+2. I believe he just likes to start threads, possibly to stir up controversy, I don't know. :roll:

Charlie

Stoneface wrote:
So, here's the question. Do you 'respect' your dogs? Is your dog a member of the family and sleeps in the bed with you or is he just an instrument that either earns his kibble or is being dropped from the kennel?...... Where are you at on the spectrum?

One subject that has always confused me was the idea of conventional kennels. You know, the ol' 5x10 slab with chain link panels. I liken it to a person being confined to a bathroom with the occasional let outside for an hour or so or just to go to work for a few hours..... But, there are plenty of dogs who have lived in kennels for years and they seem to adjust well to it. When it's time to go back to the kennel after a hunt or workout or training, they just trot right in.

I think you lost a good part of your target audience right from the beginning. It occurs to me that very few people posting here are on either extreme end of the spectrum. Personally I don't allow my gun dogs to sleep on the bed. The only dog allowed to sleep on the bed is my wife's Jack Russell. That's her dog and her decision. The other dogs sleep on a rug in the laundry room and my GSP spends most of the daylight hours in his outdoor kennel. Partially because he can't be trusted in the house unattended. Everyone's needs and expectations for their dogs varies.

I think everyone would be interested in hearing your notion of an ideal set up and situation as a comparison to their own.

Nate

:roll:

campgsp wrote:My dogs are members of the family and treated as such. With that said they are still dogs, "whiskey for my man before my horses".
To say dogs that live in the kennel is cruel is absurd. What do dogs do 95% of the time.. sleep. So whether they are in the house or in a clean kennel that's what they are going to do. I've lived with dogs in the kennel for years and they got no less attention then the mutt that lives in my house. Yes there are some people who put dogs in kennels and forget about them until hunting season arrives and those are the people chasing their dog around in the field and not getting any birds bagged. Their loss not mine or yours. To judge something you have no experience living or based on only one person's setup is discriminate.
As far as my dogs go after a hunt they are not running back to the kennel they run around the yard while I unload the truck, I kennel them for food and water. Otherwise they won't eat, they'll just get tired of playing or following me around and go straight to the dog house and sleep. That's just what dogs do. Sleep, sleep, sleep. Remember ol' Blue?

I agree with this concept - my birddogs are inside/outside and the chessies and beagles are full time outside dogs. It works for us. I do think you've misquoted the song though... I do believe the quote is "whiskey for my men and beer for my horses", but I could be mistaken.

Birddog Whiskey for me and for my horses!

One subject that has always confused me was the idea of conventional kennels. You know, the ol' 5x10 slab with chain link panels. I liken it to a person being confined to a bathroom with the occasional let outside for an hour or so or just to go to work for a few hours. Hard surfaces, small, nothing to mentally stimulate you or help you kill time. In my head I just can't even begin to consider how much life would out and out suck in a kennel. To me the monotony and stagnation of life in a kennel is cruel in and of itself. But, there are plenty of dogs who have lived in kennels for years and they seem to adjust well to it. When it's time to go back to the kennel after a hunt or workout or training, they just trot right in. I think I'll always be torn on this subject. If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this I'd really like to hear them in addition to the main subject.

Theres the problem last time I got out of the dog house I quit thinking like a dog and the whole wolrd changed.

Lots of people go to prison and then do things on purpose to get right back in.

The question of either respecting a game critter or a dog is nothing new.
Nor is the continual show stopper pros and cons of giving dogs human characteristics of emotion, et al.
They all make the message board rounds on a regular basis and often raise angst when some feel the flow is against their own personal view.
Which all may be one reason that some subtly knock the messenger...another reason may be the questions can lead to places difficult to defend or difficult to continually ignore.
Many simply like to see threads stay on the easiest task, such as, #7 or #7 1/2 for a grouse-sized gamebird.
If this question or the other "respect" question helps some to think, good.....if not, good deux.

I personally choose to view a dog as between a hammer and a human.....and a game critter somewhere between a clay target equivalency and a noble beast giving it's Life so that my Life may continue.
What I view as over-respect are the folks catching some hatchery trout and going into near apoplexy over the catching...the heights they reach can be a bit embarrassing.

Winchey wrote:Really? Are a lot of parents dropping their kids off at homeless shelters?

Far too many people cull their children before they are born because it would be too inconvenient to drop them off at a shelter where people are waiting in line to love them.

Anthropomorphism is something I preach to people all the time when they ask why their dog or dogs act this way or that way. They are animals don't consider themselves a part of our family, no matter how much the other thinks they do - they consider us a part of their pack. It's a term I've used for a long time. But, what a lot of dog people don't understand is that your dog - your domesticated dog - is a far cry from the wild dogs they come from. You can't study a wolf and overlay the mentality directly to a domesticated dog. You could almost say that's like a different form of anthropomorphism. Projecting ANY granted thought processes and characteristics onto any animal that belong to another.

Studies were done in Europe that support that dogs are emotionally closer to humans than any other creature on earth, including primates. They connect with us in a way, need us in a way and identify with us in a way totally different than anything else. They take cues from us and we've bred them to accept and have genetically molded them to fit our lifestyle. That being said, I'm not trying to project human characteristics and thought processes onto our domestic dogs, I'm trying to understand what their's are... not as people, not as wild dogs, but as what they are. If you spend some time with actual wild dogs or wolves you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Domestic dogs today are like a new species that is made up of genes spliced together from humans and wild dogs.

Everything I'm saying is NOT just opinion, it's actual evidence. I'm not trying to get in a shoving match and I don't think I've ever, every insulted anyone here who hasn't made the first move, so if you don't agree with what I'm saying, that's fine, but let's keep it cordial.

I have no idea what you are trying to argue. especially the not part of the family, part of the pack business, what the heck is the difference between a pack and a family.

Other than lacking in language and the brain power to rationalize, analyze, connect the dots as well as we do, and that they get a lot of enjoyment out of things we do not and vice versa, I don't see a whole lot of difference.They also don't try to analyze and rationalize their own emotions like we do, but I also attribute that to lacking the brain power needed.

Stoneface wrote:Anthropomorphism is something I preach to people all the time when they ask why their dog or dogs act this way or that way. They are animals don't consider themselves a part of our family, no matter how much the other thinks they do - they consider us a part of their pack. It's a term I've used for a long time. But, what a lot of dog people don't understand is that your dog - your domesticated dog - is a far cry from the wild dogs they come from. You can't study a wolf and overlay the mentality directly to a domesticated dog. You could almost say that's like a different form of anthropomorphism. Projecting ANY granted thought processes and characteristics onto any animal that belong to another.

Studies were done in Europe that support that dogs are emotionally closer to humans than any other creature on earth, including primates. They connect with us in a way, need us in a way and identify with us in a way totally different than anything else. They take cues from us and we've bred them to accept and have genetically molded them to fit our lifestyle. That being said, I'm not trying to project human characteristics and thought processes onto our domestic dogs, I'm trying to understand what their's are... not as people, not as wild dogs, but as what they are. If you spend some time with actual wild dogs or wolves you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Domestic dogs today are like a new species that is made up of genes spliced together from humans and wild dogs.

Everything I'm saying is NOT just opinion, it's actual evidence. I'm not trying to get in a shoving match and I don't think I've ever, every insulted anyone here who hasn't made the first move, so if you don't agree with what I'm saying, that's fine, but let's keep it cordial.

Show me the white papers.

Stoneface wrote: Everything I'm saying is NOT just opinion, it's actual evidence.

Your sleep on the bed/conventional kennel thought was not evidence, it was pure opinion and an absolutely laughable one at that. That is about as cordial as I can be with such an illogical, emotionally driven opinion as that.

My dogs eat the other dogs chit... Thats about all I can offer to this conversation.

Mine too!

+3

I always check with the dogs before I make any decision in my life......

Dogs are little angels to be loved and pampered.....


Mine have their own 50 in HDTV tuned to AKC and other pet channels and they onle eat the finest cuts of meat......

hahahahahaha I need a life......

my 5 are outside locked in a cruel kennel has electric water and a heat pad under the floor, only to be let out when I feel like it, well no I get up 5 every morning let em out till 730 then my boy lets em out at 4 until 9 so they get to run 4 acres too. And your dogs are?????

Never mention weeds in anothers garden unless yers is completly weed free.......

I am not sure this fits in this thread all that much, but...

This idea that dogs , domestic dogs wanting to please humans as a major motivating force
is not what I see. I see dogs doing things to pleas themselves. They get treats for sitting down
when told to sit, so they sit. They get a bird in their mouth if they do a retrieve. They simply get
us to pet them and tell them, in our little kid voice, what a good dog they are for doing all sorts of things.

I don't see that as trying to please us but trying to get something for themselves, please themselves.

Just a thought.

Mike

Our dogs are apart of the family. We make sure that their needs are met. I show my respect for them by making sure their needs are met after a long hunt before mine are. But, they are dogs and I tolerate no BS from them.

I had always thought that if I got a pup and it wasnt what I wanted, I would simply "Send it down the road". But, as it turns out, I am not cut out for that. I enjoy the different qualities. But I also take nothing away from those that can do it. Kennel/Home it makes no difference. As long as you show them some attention and take care of their needs and not abuse them, you are good.

Elkhunter wrote:My dogs eat the other dogs chit... Thats about all I can offer to this conversation.

This is exactly why I respect my dogs...

I got a question for y'all. Any of you shoot dogs that won't hunt or maybe not hunt well? If not what do you do with those dogs?

I don't define respect for my dogs as letting them sleep in the bed with me, etc. Obviously, "respect" is a subjective term. I respect my dogs' abilities to do the job they were bred and trained for. Coming from the K9 world you better respect their capabilities or someone gets hurt. But believe me, they respect me way more. I am not part of their pack; I allow them into mine. I'm the alpha, period. My dogs' needs are met. Two live in kennels, two in the house. The setter I'm bringing home will split time between both. The kennels are covered 5x10 with chain link panels and a metal roof. They don't sleep in my bed, but they have a bed. When food is put down, they don't eat until I tell them to (alpha exercise), but they are fed twice a day. When they are allowed inside, they don't walk in before I do (alpha exercise). My dogs are dearly loved by my whole family, but I'm the one to be respected by the definition of the word, not them. I'm the alpha.

If you read the book Training the Behavior by Garry Patterson, you'll find that today's dogs, as domisticated as they may be, aren't as far removed from wild canines as one may think. You can't breed out million year old instincts. Without behaviour shaping, all dogs run on instinct. They don't live to please you, despite what many believe. If they did you wouldn't have to teach force fetch or use an e-collar for anything at all. They would simply do what you ask every single time you told them to. They will always take the path of least resistance to get what they want.

Dogs do what they do because, simply, they are dogs. At the end of the day they are an animal. They should be cared and provided for and loved, but not humanized.

They run on instinct and WHAT THEY LEARN. Either from what you teach them or how you shape their behaviour, OR ON THEIR OWN. Just like everything else.

Kids don't do what you tell them all the time either. They do what works, if they find out the path of least resistance is doing their homework, then they get to go out, rather than not do it and get nagged and punished, they will do their homework.

Add to it dogs don't speak english so you can't just tell them to do things.

I agree dogs are self pleasing, so are humans and that your dog doesn't have to sleep in your bed to be respected. Mine do, but thats more for me than them. They are just as happy sleeping in a crate in the back of a truck.

This whole thread has bothered me and I think I know why. I don't think you can just respect someone or a dog, but rather you respect an action they perform and consequently we tend to transfer that respect to the individual.. Like wise we respect some action someone won't perform so again we transfer that to respect for the individual. But in all cases the respect is really for some action that has been performed or not performed.

I just think respect is the wrong word for a dog since I haven't found any action the dog will or will not perform because of it's moral character. How we treat an animal is based on something much different that respect. I care for them, maybe even love them in some way, but respect, I doubt. Animals have about the same rights as people do and that is to be treated humanely, beyond that right most are a product someone or some group has made up trying to run our lives to their standards. Problem is their standards usually apply to someone or something other than themselves.

Ezzy

asc wrote:I got a question for y'all. Any of you shoot dogs that won't hunt or maybe not hunt well? If not what do you do with those dogs?

Is this the annual trolling international convention?

Wow, I agree with Ezzy.

Well, whatever you guys decide on.................. I am pretty sure I am just owned by my dogs.... But somehow I am ok with it.

Max getting his feet rubbed at a DD training day.

slistoe wrote:

asc wrote:I got a question for y'all. Any of you shoot dogs that won't hunt or maybe not hunt well? If not what do you do with those dogs?

Is this the annual trolling international convention?

No, just a question. This is a gundog forum, right?
Deer dogging is a tradition in my area(mostly walkers and beagles). These hounds are cared for well and a lot of time is taken to train a good pack. That being said, dogs that won't hunt, bark, or dogs that run hogs or other such trash are usually culled.

This thread just got me to thinking about how people treat their dogs. I have never culled a dog, I just work with what I got.

JoshHaker wrote:

Winchey wrote:Really? Are a lot of parents dropping their kids off at homeless shelters?

Far too many people cull their children before they are born because it would be too inconvenient to drop them off at a shelter where people are waiting in line to love them.

Human life unfortunately won't make the headlines ahead of PETA agenda in today's warped society.

JoshHaker wrote:

Winchey wrote:Really? Are a lot of parents dropping their kids off at homeless shelters?

Far too many people cull their children before they are born because it would be too inconvenient to drop them off at a shelter where people are waiting in line to love them.

And we can only hope they keep doing it!!!!!!!!!!!! Get those bad genes out of the pool and maybe we wont have to pay for Meth head sally and her 13 kids.

I am like most that have responded, I treat my dogs well. I feed them every day, make sure their kennels are clean. Give them plenty of exercise, and hunt the crap out of them in the fall. I think the summers are boring for them, they mainly just hang out in the backyard till late August rolls around. I love em, my kids love em. And I would be devastated if something happened to one of them.

Any of you shoot dogs that won't hunt or maybe not hunt well? If not what do you do with those dogs?

I dont know what I would do, luckily I own Shorthairs and never had one wouldnt hunt.... sorry about your dog, re home it to a non hunting family and get a shorthair...

Many of the comments here make me very afraid for the future of purebred sporting dogs. I really do not want to live in a world full of overweight Lab-pit-shepherd mixes that need a behavioral therapist and doggy daycare.

What thread are you reading?

Didn't I read you state dog's shouldn't be let off a check chord on facebook when a Lew got shot by a farmer?

Winchey wrote:What thread are you reading?

Didn't I read you state dog's shouldn't be let off a check chord on facebook when a Lew got shot by a farmer?

Some people decide what to post by the way the wind is blowing. Think they just get bored and feel like they need to say something.

Ezzy