Open Puppy or Amateur Derby

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:09 pm

The 8 mongh old shorthair pup and I ran an open puppy stake last weekend and I'd like to do that again. I'd like to run two stakes and I am wondering what the second stake should be in addition to amateur puppy. I'd like to put him on birds because he's handling them nicely at this point. My concern with the derby is that we're new to this and he participated in a little grab "bleep" at the start of the puppy stake and we don't have much opportunity to work on that. I'd appreciate any pro/ con input any of you folks may have.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:28 am

Run it in whatever you want, but there can be lasting effects from dogs catching birds. If there is amateur puppy there should be open puppy. I say skip defby until the dog is broke and save yourself a lot of heartache and money in trying to correct bad habbits.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:38 am

ultracarry wrote:I say skip defby until the dog is broke and save yourself a lot of heartache and money in trying to correct bad habbits.

If you are going to wait until it is broke to run it, then why not skip the derby and run it in a broke dog stake? Derby stakes can also cause a lot of issues even if you have a broke dog. Brace mates care less if your dog is broke. If in the AF, I say run it as a derby and in the event you place, whalla...you are now qualified.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:46 am

If the dogs broke, it doesn't matter if the bracemate rips out a bird and chases... Creeps, blows a back. Etc. I won't run my puppy till he will also back and stop to flush. Once he does, I will run puppy, gun dogs and derbys in the same weekend so they can get expierence in trials. Just my .02.

And it helps when the dog is a finished gundog no matter what they say in the rulebook.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:57 am

ultracarry wrote:If the dogs broke, it doesn't matter if the bracemate rips out a bird and chases... Creeps, blows a back. Etc. I won't run my puppy till he will also back and stop to flush. Once he does, I will run puppy, gun dogs and derbys in the same weekend so they can get expierence in trials. Just my .02.

And it helps when the dog is a finished gundog no matter what they say in the rulebook.

I don't care who you are there are very few dogs that are young enough to do all 3 and broke enough to run broke stakes.

And no matter how broke your derby is, it is very likely that letting another dog rip its birds in a trial setting will send your dog off to the races as well.

To the OP I would wait till fall to run an 8mo pup as a derby, and as the dogs owner/handler you need to be able to call it quits when your pup gets to the point of no return in the case of ripping chasing and catching birds.

Jim

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:23 am

Ultra...good points and appreciate your feedback. I should start another thread about how and where they run the derbies.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:08 am

I've run one derby in my life. first timer that belonged to another guy in the Britt futurity years ago. I don't care for puppy or derby stakes. I don't see puppy stakes showing anything in a pup, they change quite a bit as they age. And the only good I can see running a derby is to teach the dog stuff you'd rather not teach it. Had a buy tell me one time I should run them to get them used to the horse's, yelling and crowd. Cost the same, as I recall, to run a derby and a broke dog, I'll wait for the broke dog stakes. Had a friend years ago with a derby that won every stake it was put in one year. After that it would not break out. Over did training that birds are easy to catch. If you do run a derby, get your points and get out, the few points you get will not justify the problems you can create. Gonna be a lot of trialer's disagree with me but that is my opinion.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:27 pm

Only eight months old...very young. You still have more than half a year to run him as a puppy. If you want him on birds, look for puppy stakes where birds are released. That way his immaturity won't be held against him and you still have some bird contact in a trial situation.

I wouldn't appreciate a young pup playing grab-*** with my derby dog, especially if my derby was on the older end of the age scale. Derbies have a job to do, but they're young and can be unravelled easily. Silly puppy antics don't help. It's no one's fault, dogs do what they do, but when my dog is entered, he's there for a reason and it's not to help grabby puppies get ready for derby competition.

Give your pup time to mature and enjoy puppy stakes while you can.

Good luck and happy trialing.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:29 pm

People don't pay an entry fee for their dog to play tag with yours. If I was your previous bracemate and drew you again, I would scratch. You are there to compete, not train, and if your dog does not have the maturity to run a puppy stake, then don't put him in derby.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:35 pm

Puppy and derby are good for beginners or people who want to run broke stakes starting at 4 yrs old.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:41 pm

Puppy and derby is a good chance for you and your dog to get experience just don't ruin that opportunity chasing ribbons. I put a limit on how many juvy stakes I will run. Puppy is 2-3 and derby is 5. Puppy is a chance for them to get exposure to a trial is all. Deby they can get a 1-2 shots as a young dog I want them a little ragged, maybe hard to catch but showing independence and making an effort to go with me. Then they get a couple tries when they get back from the prairies. After they go to the prairie I expect them to let me flush, and stand fairly well but they can break. I want to be able to call them off that chase fairly easy and send them on. They should be handling for me and going with me by this point, but no where near like an adult.

The more times you run them the more times you give them to learn bad habits as a young dog. There is a big difference in running an 8 month old puppy and a 2yr old that is partial broke. 8 months old run them and have run. The problems come with the dogs that run 10-20 derby stakes chasing ribbons and rankings. There is a diff in breaking on the shot and going 10yds and running a bird down 200yds away and ret it.

Ultra you redshirting that puppy for 2 or 3 years to be able to run a broke dog in puppy stakes?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:25 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:Ultra you redshirting that puppy for 2 or 3 years to be able to run a broke dog in puppy stakes?

A dog that never catches a bird can easily be broke by 15 mos. Heck my 9mo old is almost there - after the praries he should be - knows "whoa" already on collar (off birds). My vizsla was broke at ~18mos and ran in derby & gun dogs same weekend.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:06 pm

I'm sure they can, but you and I obviously don't look for the same thing in a broke dog, the manners are a small part of the equation.

bb560m wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:Ultra you redshirting that puppy for 2 or 3 years to be able to run a broke dog in puppy stakes?
A dog that never catches a bird can easily be broke by 15 mos. Heck my 9mo old is almost there - after the praries he should be - knows "whoa" already on collar (off birds). My vizsla was broke at ~18mos and ran in derby & gun dogs same weekend.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:10 pm

My dog is 3.5 years old and just got his first broke dog placement this spring! Of course I am a horrible trainer though.....

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:22 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:I'm sure they can, but you and I obviously don't look for the same thing in a broke dog, the manners are a small part of the equation.

bb560m wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:Ultra you redshirting that puppy for 2 or 3 years to be able to run a broke dog in puppy stakes?
A dog that never catches a bird can easily be broke by 15 mos. Heck my 9mo old is almost there - after the praries he should be - knows "whoa" already on collar (off birds). My vizsla was broke at ~18mos and ran in derby & gun dogs same weekend.

You have no idea what I look for. If there are no manners, there are no placements. Ground race and application has to be there too - but that is the other half - and something that experience + pedigree bring. My 9mo already uses the wind correctly, runs lines all the way through, etc. - my V didn't start doing that until he was about 15 mos old, but he was still able to put everything together before 2 and win derbies and gun dogs in the same weekend. It can be done pretty easily if they get enough exposure and don't catch birds.

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:11 pm

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the input. I think we'll just run the AWP and call it good.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:58 pm

Hey you can run open puppy also. Should be almost the same running order just different handlers.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed May 01, 2013 8:24 am

Not everyone has wonder dogs who break before a year, and not all are ready before two, but keep up the good work.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed May 01, 2013 8:34 am

KwikIrish wrote:Not everyone has wonder dogs who break before a year, and not all are ready before two, but keep up the good work.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Wed May 01, 2013 9:35 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:Not everyone has wonder dogs who break before a year, and not all are ready before two, but keep up the good work.

About as good as a field trial judge telling me AKC defines the term "gun range" as shotgun range.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed May 01, 2013 9:59 am

KwikIrish wrote:Not everyone has wonder dogs who break before a year, and not all are ready before two, but keep up the good work.

They don't have to be wonder dogs to be broke by two. I would bet most dogs that are worked a decent amount, summer on the prairies and never caught a bird would be broke by 2. Running in lots of derbies is going to delay that for sure.

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Wed May 01, 2013 10:31 am

I appreciate and think it's appropriate that different folks have different goals for the their pups. This is all new to me and I don't have the experience to read my dog to know when to push forward or pull back, etc. so I am taking this all relatively slowly. I am looking to expose both of us to new experiences, which I know will help us along the way. There is no way I could simulate the field trial experience (people, dogs, birds, and horses all wrapped in one). Plus, it was just plain fun and a great way to spend the day with the family.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed May 01, 2013 3:57 pm

bb560m wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:Not everyone has wonder dogs who break before a year, and not all are ready before two, but keep up the good work.

They don't have to be wonder dogs to be broke by two. I would bet most dogs that are worked a decent amount, summer on the prairies and never caught a bird would be broke by 2. Running in lots of derbies is going to delay that for sure.

Read again. Wonder dogs by 1... A decent amount can be/are broke for derbies but not all are able to handle it; Welcome to majority of my breed.
I enjoy competing. I'll compete in the stakes my dog is eligible and ready for, (ie derby regardless if they are broke or not) so long as I feel they are ready and competitive. Why rush them? If they're Broke dogs, run them in Broke stakes. I would expect bigger trial's derbies to be more demanding in regard to manners, but in my measly opinion, the avg weekend trial should not have unwritten expectations for your dog to be broke. Just my .02

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed May 01, 2013 11:53 pm

It doesn't take much to break a dog by one....

You also don't have to run a breed that won't make it in broke stakes if you don't want to. Last I checked they didn't issue you a dog to run, it was a choice like entering a broke dog in puppy, derby, and gun dog. I dont tell you that you can't run an unbroke dog in derby and puppy and there are no unwritten rules.... But I'm sure it shows a whole lot more promise for that dog in future broke stakes. Just an opinion. Nothing to get wound up about.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 02, 2013 3:10 am

I think you will find different standards for All-Age (and Shoting Dog in AF) and walking gun dog when it comes to when to steady. When range, indpendence, class, style, and bird finding ability are also measured, being steady is one small part.

I have never seen a connection between the number of Derby stakes ran and effort to steady.

Back to the OP, if you have the time and energy to field trial, you must spend the time to properly train. A dog that interfers with its bracemate should not be in a trial. As a judge, I will pick them up.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu May 02, 2013 5:31 am

ultracarry wrote:It doesn't take much to break a dog by one....

You also don't have to run a breed that won't make it in broke stakes if you don't want to. Last I checked they didn't issue you a dog to run, it was a choice like entering a broke dog in puppy, derby, and gun dog. I dont tell you that you can't run an unbroke dog in derby and puppy and there are no unwritten rules.... But I'm sure it shows a whole lot more promise for that dog in future broke stakes. Just an opinion. Nothing to get wound up about.

A broke juvey shows me only a couple of things - that they can find ( or stumble upon, as the case may be) a bird; and that they are obedient. There is a whole lot more to judging potential than that. Which is why doing a good job in judging juvenile stakes takes more experience a better eye for dogs than in deciding winners of broke dog stakes. Any AKC mudge that places a puppy/derby solely on whether it shows broke is clearly taking the easy way out. And even though the unwritten standard in AF events leans favor towards broke derbies, good judges in that venue wouldn't base a decision on birdwork alone.

Personally I don't see what the big hurry is. Broke at age one, finished at age two, then what? Big hairy deal. At age four or five they're still on the same level as dogs that broke out later. For me, enjoying wild and wooly juveniles is a blast. It can be so much fun with no pressure, and the opportunity is gone in a short time. Sure, we need to bring them along and guide their development but to get all wound up about showing them broke in a certain time frame....what's the point?

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu May 02, 2013 6:43 am

shags wrote:
ultracarry wrote:It doesn't take much to break a dog by one....

You also don't have to run a breed that won't make it in broke stakes if you don't want to. Last I checked they didn't issue you a dog to run, it was a choice like entering a broke dog in puppy, derby, and gun dog. I dont tell you that you can't run an unbroke dog in derby and puppy and there are no unwritten rules.... But I'm sure it shows a whole lot more promise for that dog in future broke stakes. Just an opinion. Nothing to get wound up about.
A broke juvey shows me only a couple of things - that they can find ( or stumble upon, as the case may be) a bird; and that they are obedient. There is a whole lot more to judging potential than that. Which is why doing a good job in judging juvenile stakes takes more experience a better eye for dogs than in deciding winners of broke dog stakes. Any AKC mudge that places a puppy/derby solely on whether it shows broke is clearly taking the easy way out. And even though the unwritten standard in AF events leans favor towards broke derbies, good judges in that venue wouldn't base a decision on birdwork alone.

Personally I don't see what the big hurry is. Broke at age one, finished at age two, then what? Big hairy deal. At age four or five they're still on the same level as dogs that broke out later. For me, enjoying wild and wooly juveniles is a blast. It can be so much fun with no pressure, and the opportunity is gone in a short time. Sure, we need to bring them along and guide their development but to get all wound up about showing them broke in a certain time frame....what's the point?

+1

Doug

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu May 02, 2013 6:55 am

Seen or heard of dogs that were broke out too early that "suddenly" developed bad habits and become "unbroke". Dogs laying down on point, suddenly deciding to rip birds and catch birds.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu May 02, 2013 7:34 am

Neil wrote:I have never seen a connection between the number of Derby stakes ran and effort to steady.

Look at the dogs that have 10-20+ derby placement and see how long it takes them to start placing in gun dogs - I bet it's a while. They are learning they can catch birds in a trial setting - the dogs aren't stupid. It's going to take more pressure and more time to get them standing, assuming they aren't collar wise already.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu May 02, 2013 7:52 am

So Doug and Neil... When was the last time your dog broke in a trial?

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu May 02, 2013 8:02 am

ultracarry wrote:So Doug and Neil... When was the last time your dog broke in a trial?

A couple months ago. I've seen national champions chase birds like puppies too. Happens all the time. What's your point?

Doug

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu May 02, 2013 8:14 am

ultracarry wrote:It doesn't take much to break a dog by one....

You also don't have to run a breed that won't make it in broke stakes if you don't want to. Last I checked they didn't issue you a dog to run, it was a choice like entering a broke dog in puppy, derby, and gun dog. I dont tell you that you can't run an unbroke dog in derby and puppy and there are no unwritten rules.... But I'm sure it shows a whole lot more promise for that dog in future broke stakes. Just an opinion. Nothing to get wound up about.

Hey, I'm not choosing a breed that won't make it, I chose a breed that generally just isn't ready to be broke at 6 months... Or isn't red shirted, and winning derbies broke at 3.5!

*not that YOU are that case...
I've seen some dogs broke super early who lost potential, likely because it was too much too soon.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 02, 2013 9:16 am

ultracarry wrote:So Doug and Neil... When was the last time your dog broke in a trial?

My FC bumped a covey the last time he ran in the National Open All-Age Ch, the point is he qualified for the NC placing in 30% of the trials he entered. I don't need them 100% steady, I need them to win.

So when was the last time you ran in the NC? Or placed in a Championship?

Neil

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 02, 2013 9:25 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ultracarry wrote:So Doug and Neil... When was the last time your dog broke in a trial?
A couple months ago. I've seen national champions chase birds like puppies too. Happens all the time. What's your point?

Doug

Not that many years a go a dog WON the NC at Ames that chased on his 12th find. Like Doug, the judges were looking for the best dog, not the one that was misstake free.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu May 02, 2013 10:38 am

I don't run in championships because there aren't any that I can make due to scheduling and work, which will be changing soon.

Part of having the best dog is having one that is broke and won't chase. Sure it can happen, but accepting a placement after doing something that should have the dog picked up is showing a lot about the person who left the dog down knowingly. I think its called integrity, some people lack it and some are too proud at times to do what is right.

Derbys when not broke just makes them not as predictable and cause irreversable damage to a field trial career.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 02, 2013 11:00 am

ultracarry wrote:I don't run in championships because there aren't any that I can make due to scheduling and work, which will be changing soon.

Part of having the best dog is having one that is broke and won't chase. Sure it can happen, but accepting a placement after doing something that should have the dog picked up is showing a lot about the person who left the dog down knowingly. I think its called integrity, some people lack it and some are too proud at times to do what is right.

Derbys when not broke just makes them not as predictable and cause irreversable damage to a field trial career.

I do pick up a dog for a breach of manners, not sure why you would make such insulting, unsupportable acusations.

"Irreversable"? The only thing irreversable with dogs is death.

I have never had a dog that won as a Derby fail to place as a first year dog. How can anyone even think that an unbreakable habit can be formed in 12 - 15 Derby runs?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu May 02, 2013 11:06 am

Neil wrote:I have never had a dog that won as a Derby fail to place as a first year dog. How can anyone even think that an unbreakable habit can be formed in 12 - 15 Derby runs?

100% possible - that could be 20+ birds caught. I prefer my dog to make it around almost every time - part of that comes from him learning he can never catch a bird. He was broke in < 1 month at summer camp. All you're doing by letting them run derbies is making it more difficult for the dog to understand the rules. I guess you don't want to hear it though - so keep running your dogs in derbies, you're doing them no favors.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu May 02, 2013 11:13 am

I think AFTCA derby stakes have gone bazongo. A dog often has to be as a Shooting Dog to win. Perfectly fine derbies are being picked up for what would be a SD infraction. What ever happened to measuring a derby dog by derby requirements? I have a AF Amateur Walking Derby Dog of the Year. She was not totally broke but showed what a derby should be : keen desire to hunt, bold, independent, intelligence in seeking objectives, steadiness to wing and shot are not required, can be shot over, fast yet co ordinated , purposeful style of running..................Folks who get mad because an unbroke derby caused their dog to break need to give their head a shake.

I've found Neil's perspective to be true... "never had a dog that won as a Derby fail to place as a first year dog." quote

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu May 02, 2013 5:18 pm

Neil wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ultracarry wrote:So Doug and Neil... When was the last time your dog broke in a trial?
A couple months ago. I've seen national champions chase birds like puppies too. Happens all the time. What's your point?

Doug
Not that many years a go a dog WON the NC at Ames that chased on his 12th find. Like Doug, the judges were looking for the best dog, not the one that was misstake free.

Neil, maybe when your thinking your the victim and feeling like you are being picked on you should read all of the posts. I don't remember saying you did anything, just a general statement is all. Reading and comprehension is something we all learned in school (if you attended).. maybe after soo many years one could also brush up on thicker skin and not feeling like they are being a victim also. Cheers.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 02, 2013 7:27 pm

Sport, I have very good reading comprehension skills and very thick skin. In fact, I don't care what you think, you have not earned the respect in field trial wins to concern me. If you think I am wrong, give me the breed and registered names of your dogs and I will look it up.

My only concern is the new folks believe your and others that Derby stakes are intrinsically bad, they are not. In fact they are meaningless. I have had FCs with no Derby wins and a couple that placed everytime ran.

It is all in training.

And I have never been a victim.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu May 02, 2013 11:23 pm

Well it is kinda funny that my dog kimber has more first place finishes than yours had in 30 placements... She did it with about half the placements.

And out of judging 31 stakes, you haven't placed another dog in first other than a Britt.? I guess there might be some reason why you took the comment about integrity to heart. I wouldn't run under you if it was free.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 03, 2013 12:22 am

ultracarry wrote:Well it is kinda funny that my dog kimber has more first place finishes than yours had in 30 placements... She did it with about half the placements.

And out of judging 31 stakes, you haven't placed another dog in first other than a Britt.? I guess there might be some reason why you took the comment about integrity to heart. I wouldn't run under you if it was free.

First, most of my wins have been in AF, and most of those pointers and setters, many as me as the handler, not owner. Secondly, I pay a lot more attention to dogs defeated and the level of competition than blue ribbons. Still I am not overly impressed with my record, but I have had a lot of fun. Oh, Azul has 8 or 9 hour wins, including 4 in AF pointer trials and has placed over 30% of the trials entered, he has been a nice dog.

When 95+% of the dogs you judge in AKC are Britt only it is kind of hard to place other breeds. You will find in American Field I placed mostly pointers, but I enjoy watching all the breeds.

Personal attacks are unbecoming and add nothing.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 03, 2013 12:35 am

Ultravarry,

Your Kimber dog has done a nice job, you have reason to be very proud.

Neil Mace

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri May 03, 2013 11:26 am

ultracarry wrote:Well it is kinda funny that my dog kimber has more first place finishes than yours had in 30 placements... She did it with about half the placements.

And out of judging 31 stakes, you haven't placed another dog in first other than a Britt.? I guess there might be some reason why you took the comment about integrity to heart. I wouldn't run under you if it was free.

Wow..... For anyone who has ever wondered why some of the more reputable pros, and better ameteurs dont frequent this board, here ya go.

Jim

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri May 03, 2013 12:16 pm

Jim, they don't because they are busy training dogs....