Pressure???

[campgsp]

Extremely soft, timid dogs aside. What exactly is pressure to some of you folks? I read to much pressure to little pressure , no pressure, but really you all have lost me....

Is pulling on a cc, leash to get a dog to come to you pressuring the dog? yes I think
Is picking up a dog that moves from woah and placing them back pressureing the dog? Yes I think
Is making the dog heel pressuring the dog? Yes I think
Etc,etc,etc

Why is pressure such a bad thing here?? When your doing it even if you think your not.
Don't even bother saying style, don't buy it and never will. Ff is a ton of pressure but dogs don't loose style over it....

To me if you cant make a dog do something your really not teaching it anything. In school if you didn't do your homework practicing you weren't learning anything so your parents your teacher or who ever pressured you into doing it. And you learned from it right??...

If you take away all the pressure what exactly is going on?
I'm dead serious if anyone can teach me how to train a do with absolutely no pressure I'm all eyes and ears. But what the heck is pressure in training a dog to you???

Sorry for being so arrogant if you think I am. Guess on the internet I sound arrogant... Shm.

[Winchey]

I think you defined pressure fine. I don't think anyone says pressure is a bad thing, just that too much before the dog can handle it is. We don't give elementary school kids an SAT and tell them their entire future is riding on it.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

"If you take away all the pressure what exactly is going on?
I'm dead serious if anyone can teach me how to train a do with absolutely no pressure I'm all eyes and ears. But what the heck is pressure in training a dog to you???"

I would be very surprised if anyone will tell you they can train with no pressure.

[campgsp]

Winchey, that's the thing too, most everyone on here says not to start training a dog until a year old. I don't get that. What it tells me is a dog can't handle pressure until they are a year old. It just isn't true. To each their own but I like to startem young "come" the day I get them home. 4-6 months woah, heel. Before which a few weeks of bird chasing

Az brit, couldn't agree more.

[Winchey]

I do the same, but I don't start breaking them until they are good at handling wild birds and such. And wouldn't get on a year old dog as hard as a 5 year old for ripping a bird. I like to think of it in hockey terms. You aren't going to bag skate your competitive peewee team, 12 and 13 year olds and bench kids for an entire game like you would your high school team. Then you are going to put even more pressure on a college or pro team.

[Ruffshooter]

Personally, Pressure is specific to each dog.
Incorrect or ill timed Pressure many times is applied before a dog understands what is expected or even understands why pressure is used or how to shut off the pressure.
Pressure can be verbal, ecollar, hands on, CC etc. but generically is a manner of negative correction, usually followed with some form of postive level of reinforcement which comes in different levels for different dogs personalities.

[bigdaddy]

There is a great article by Rick Smith about pressure in the January/February 2013 issue of The Pointing Dog Journal. He talks about mental pressure, as well as physical pressure and that the importance lies in being able to tell when the dog is on the verge of pressure overload.

I think you know that you can't train a dog without pressure, just like you cannot train an animal with only positive reinforcement. Withholding the treat or click is in and of itself negative reinforcement. The trick is balance. Smith also inserts the old horse training adage into the article; make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

[cjuve]

Winchey, that's the thing too, most everyone on here says not to start training a dog until a year old. I don't get that. What it tells me is a dog can't handle pressure until they are a year old. It just isn't true. To each their own but I like to startem young "come" the day I get them home. 4-6 months woah, heel. Before which a few weeks of bird chasing

Az brit, couldn't agree more.

Like it or not training starts the day you get the pup home and ends the day the dog dies. I would put money on the fact that what you like in a dog is different than what others like. I personally like a dog that has been allowed a chance to develop his natral abilities before he gets the screws turned on him.

[Chukar12]

There is a big difference between pressure, stress and fear. If you think of them on a continuum no dog or person can get through life without learning to handle pressure, the key to avoiding stress is insuring a solution is available to alleviate it; especially in the immature stages. It is by no stretch of the imagination difficult to get compliance from a dog or puppy, they will submit to human pressure. I believe where the debate takes off is when you define what you want from the dog.

Whether you care to hear it or not; and this is no reflection on you Camp, as I have never seen a dog you have touched, pressure that manifests itself to something further down the continuum does show up in style and performance. Defining it is virtually impossible however because there are such varying degrees of expectation, experience and application. It's not just a low tail, or flagging or blinking that is credited to a dog handled with a heavy hand; it can be a dog that turns his head to an approaching handler on point, a dog that abandons his nose and instinct to hunt in a precise range and direction that a human demands, a gait that has lost its animation.

It is my opinion that more people want a trained dog a lot more than they want to train dogs. Taking something out of the dog doesn't matter much to these folks and their purpose.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I read a quote from Moe once that addressed the term pressure. He likes to spend time with pups building the prey drive (chasing birds) because when they are old enough to start formal training he knows that it can take a little out of the dog. I like Delmar's statement " Let the first year be the pups year" and "a pup can do no wrong"

[campgsp]

Winchey, that's the thing too, most everyone on here says not to start training a dog until a year old. I don't get that. What it tells me is a dog can't handle pressure until they are a year old. It just isn't true. To each their own but I like to startem young "come" the day I get them home. 4-6 months woah, heel. Before which a few weeks of bird chasing

Az brit, couldn't agree more.

Like it or not training starts the day you get the pup home and ends the day the dog dies. I would put money on the fact that what you like in a dog is different than what others like. I personally like a dog that has been allowed a chance to develop his natral abilities before he gets the screws turned on him.

I agree.
I'm not saying waiting until a year or more to do more formal training is bad. I'm just saying that when people do come on here that's all that they are ever told like that's the only and best way to do it.

I just like to see that the dog has the ability to locate and find game, point, and chase chase chase. Once I see that consistently for a few weeks to a month, I know they have it in em. It's really hard to get a dog do not do what it was breed to do. That's just what I have found. Not trying to sway anyone. just my perspective.

[cjhills]

It really has nothing to do with what we think is pressure. It is what the dog perceives as pressure. Most dogs, even quite timid dogs, deal quite well with physical pressure and don't have life long problems from it. We have got many well bred dogs from abusive trainers and got them back on track quite easily.
Mental pressure is a whole different ball game. Much harder to recognize and correct and is more likely to cause lifelong problems. This is what causes pointing dogs to sit lose their style.
If the dog feels too much pressure it is too much pressure regardless of what the trainer thinks. Time to back off and build confidence. Cj

[campgsp]

Chukar12

I think you nailed it "fear".

When trainers do have a heavy hand during teaching the dog, before it has actually understood the command is where all the style goes away. I guess you can use pressure to outline it But I think it's more so from scaring the dog. Pulling on a cc making a dog come to you and then praising him for being their makes them forget all the fear. But pulling them in and then oh ok well now your here. hurts them. Just an example if it makes sense. Or picking them up dropping them before they even know what you want of them.

Definitely think fear is more of the cause for style issues. The dog looking at you when he's on point in anticipation of being corrected. Fear? I think so.

[ultracarry]

I put pressure on my dogs as soon as I got them. Don't let them make mistakes, don't let them ignore me and don't get close to letting them just be a puppy and figure it out themself. I think people freak out too much when the dog doesn't listen to them and they go way over on correction and don't keep a level head. I don't want to wait until my dog is hard headed enough to break them or make them stand birds, make them handle, and FF them. I want it immediately and can work them enough to let them know what I expect and they do it because I want them to. Ill pick them up on point, make them stop, and walk right up there butt to flush a bird. Its a fact of life for them that they have to do certain things and doesn't become pressure when they are used to it.

[cjuve]

There is a big difference between pressure, stress and fear. If you think of them on a continuum no dog or person can get through life without learning to handle pressure, the key to avoiding stress is insuring a solution is available to alleviate it; especially in the immature stages. It is by no stretch of the imagination difficult to get compliance from a dog or puppy, they will submit to human pressure. I believe where the debate takes off is when you define what you want from the dog.

Whether you care to hear it or not; and this is no reflection on you Camp, as I have never seen a dog you have touched, pressure that manifests itself to something further down the continuum does show up in style and performance. Defining it is virtually impossible however because there are such varying degrees of expectation, experience and application. It's not just a low tail, or flagging or blinking that is credited to a dog handled with a heavy hand; it can be a dog that turns his head to an approaching handler on point, a dog that abandons his nose and instinct to hunt in a precise range and direction that a human demands, a gait that has lost its animation.

It is my opinion that more people want a trained dog a lot more than they want to train dogs. Taking something out of the dog doesn't matter much to these folks and their purpose.

Well Said ... You just don't know what you don't know. You can never know what the dog would have been,could have been or should have been but you can be for sure that the more you push it with a young dog the more likley you are to end up with holes. Others may or may not see them as holes or even see the flaw at all but you still left your mark.

[rinker]

I had a discussion with my uncle who is an avid coon hunter about hounds running deer. I asked him how he broke his hounds off of deer. He told me that when a pup/young dog started running deer that he would just let the pup run loose at home(he lives where he can do this). He said that the pup would run deer for days and weeks on end. The pup would come home eat a little lay around for a few hours and then be gone for several more days out running deer. Eventually after a few weeks or months they just quit running deer. When he notices that they have quit running deer on their own, he starts hunting them again. He says that when a hound quits running deer on his own, he will generally never run another one the rest of his life. He says that dogs that are 'broke' off of deer will many times start running them again later in life.

I think this has a correlation to bird dogs. I think that a dog that has been allowed to knock and chase birds until he decides on his own to stand them will be more reliably broke the rest of his life. I wait until a dog shows me that he is going to point on his own and let me get in front of him until I start with formal bird work and putting pressure on him to stand every time and stand until the flush and shot.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

What motivates the dog to quit chasing deer if it is allowed to do so for days at a time? If I just let my dogs chase birds they will continue to chase birds. At some point you have to correct the behavior without curbing their desire to find birds.

[cjhills]

What motivates the dog to quit chasing deer if it is allowed to do so for days at a time? If I just let my dogs chase birds they will continue to chase birds. At some point you have to correct the behavior without curbing their desire to find birds.

That is exactly my thought. Some dogs will chase forever. I never seen a hound that would stop chasing on his own. I guess I wouldn't think it was much of a hound if it did.

[fuzznut]

if your dog never showed any inclination to quit chasing and start pointing longer and longer, I would guess you might consider washing him out of the breeding program? We can make them quit chasing, but don't we all look for the dog who WANTS to stop?

No training is without pressure of some sort, it's our job to know when enough is just enough for the age and experience of the dog. Dogs that can't take any pressure are a pain to work... one little human mistake and you pay for it forever! Give me a dog that is forgiving and bounces back after tough pressure is put on them. But not a dog that needs it over and over and over again. They too can be not fun to live with or work with.
Fuzz

[rinker]

In the example about the coon hound above. I think he eventually quits chasing deer because he realizes on his own that the only thing he will get out of it is hot and tired. He has already been hunted enough to know that running a raccoon may result in fur in his mouth.

I think that the bird dog eventually begins to realize the same thing. The only thing they are going to get out of knocking and chasing is hot and tired. They eventually understand that standing may get the bird shot for them. Yes, of course you will eventually have to put some pressure on them to make them stand every time and stand after the birds have gone until released or collared.

I will try and give one more example of this behaviour. My kennel is on one side of my yard, my pigeon coop is on the other side of my yard about 80 yards away from the kennel. I have occasionally bought young dogs over the years. The first time that they see me open the pigeon coop and let the pigeons out to fly they go ballistic. They run around, bark, try and climb the fence for as long as the pigeons are visible. This will go on for several days until one day that the dog realizes the only possible result of him going ballistic is that he will get hot and tired. Eventually when I fly the pigeons the dog will raise his head and watch for a moment and then lay his head back down and go back to sleep. I really think this helps with breaking the dog, he already realizes that going ballistic when a bird flies gets him nothing.

I am not a great trainer, I'm sure that I'm average at best. I had a real 'break through' a couple of years ago when i realized how much easier it is to get a dog to do something when he wants to do it. Yes, I can make a dog do something that he really doesn't want to do, and some times that is necessary, but I would rather make the dog think that it was his idea.

[Stoneface]

Pressure comes in on the dog's end of things, not our's. What I mean is, if you hit the dog with the highest level of an eCollar thinking it's on, but it's off then you think you're really laying it on the dog, but the dog's feeling nothing. There is zero pressure in this situation. If you think you have the collar on the lowest setting and it's actually on the highest setting, that's some extreme pressure. What I mean is, it's not what we do, it's what the dog feels.

As far as pressure, if that's your style of training, then it's all about finding the right amount of pressure for a given dog for a given situation. I use a Classic 70 EXP collar and when we're just out in the yard I can stop Moxy dead in her tracks with the second level of stimulation or, if she's very close I can use a level one (out of six). If she steps on a bird I have to go to a three unless the bird is a long way off. Nowadays I don't really use a collar on her very often, no matter if we're on birds or not. My voice has taken the place of the pressure that used to be applied by the collar.

Now that I've written a novel, my definition of pressure is basically a burden. You have to burden more compliant/biddable dogs much less than you do more compliant/biddable dogs. That's all it is. Some dogs just need the mental/emotional burden of a stern voice, others need the burden of an eCollar.

[ezzy333]

Pressure comes in on the dog's end of things, not our's. What I mean is, if you hit the dog with the highest level of an eCollar thinking it's on, but it's off then you think you're really laying it on the dog, but the dog's feeling nothing. There is zero pressure in this situation. If you think you have the collar on the lowest setting and it's actually on the highest setting, that's some extreme pressure. What I mean is, it's not what we do, it's what the dog feels.

As far as pressure, if that's your style of training, then it's all about finding the right amount of pressure for a given dog for a given situation. I use a Classic 70 EXP collar and when we're just out in the yard I can stop Moxy dead in her tracks with the second level of stimulation or, if she's very close I can use a level one (out of six). If she steps on a bird I have to go to a three unless the bird is a long way off. Nowadays I don't really use a collar on her very often, no matter if we're on birds or not. My voice has taken the place of the pressure that used to be applied by the collar.

Now that I've written a novel, my definition of pressure is basically a burden. You have to burden more compliant/biddable dogs much less than you do more compliant/biddable dogs. That's all it is. Some dogs just need the mental/emotional burden of a stern voice, others need the burden of an eCollar.

Pressure is nothing more than having to do something rather than wanting to. Just that simple, but of course, there are different levels of pressure, depending on how badly the pup or you want to do something other than what has been asked to do. If I ask a dog to come and it does it because it wants to there is no pressure but if it comes because it knows it has to, then there is pressure. The difference is how much the pup wants to do something else instead of what it was asked to do. Using a clicker, your voice, or any other form of correction places pressure on the dog to comply. To reduce that pressure we use treats, not to feed the pup but in an effort to make it want to comply, hence, less pressure.

You can take your training from there, either doing it by using pressure or reducing the pressure by offering some enticement so the pup responds in the way we want it to. We all should know by now that a pup can handle more pressure as it matures. As a result, one of the essential elements for a trainer is nothing more than knowing how much pressure a pup or dog can handle in the act of learning to comply to a request that has been made that it must respond to. All of this can and will change day to day and from dog to dog. because of this and this alone, is the reason there is no book or DVD that can tell you how or when to ask a pup to perform any task but rather they can give you a guideline on the order that works best and some loose "when and how to get it done" explanations.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Ezzy did you even read the clicker thread?

[ezzy333]

Ezzy did you even read the clicker thread?

Yeah, I have tried to keep up with it. Think you all did a good job with it and it was interesting the difference in opinion as to the worth of using it with a birddog. I haven't personally done much with it but have watched it demonstrated, but I will leave the debate up to those that are more experienced than I.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Ok. The click of a clicker should never be percieved by the dog as correction if used as intended.

As to the rest of the post +1.

[campgsp]

Do you think pressure is more age appropriate or experience appropriate?

What I mean is more pressure because the dogs two and not 8 months. Or more pressure because the dog has been learning how to heel for a month straight and knows right from wrong.?

As for me I don't even look at a dog's age. Heck I forget most the time. I look more at the dog it self.
Once I feel a dog knows the command and I mean know it where I can go to different locations and they obey is when the gloves come completely off. I don't want a dog to even think he can play games with me at that point. They aren't stupid they know right from wrong. my dog will on occasion because of location move from his spot to mark a bird , he knows he messed up by moving to far and move back by himself. It's just been drilled in their heads and they know they messed up. Dogs aren't perfect just like we aren't.
But pressuring them to do it and praising them for doing it is how they know what's right and what's wrong. And I think we all agree on that.

[Stoneface]

I'm with you, Camp. It's detrimental to look at a dog's age or experience and more about the context of the given pressure overall. You're not going to have a six week old pup who is mentally ready for correction, though. You have to look at what the dog knows, where he's at psychologically, how hard he is, all kinds of different factors.

Given all that, I would say the gloves rearely ever "come off" between my dogs and I. I don't want machines in the field and I don't want dogs who are so bombarded with training and procedure that they loose their independence and autonomy in the field. On top of that, I think dogs deserve a certain amount of leaway, independence. If I call a dog in and he knows he's being put up and wants to high-tail it to the tank to take a swim and cool down after a hot run, I have no problem with that. I'll just chill out by the kennel until he gets back. Tonight, I went to call the girls in and Moxy swung wide out to a small stand of trees and started using the bathroom. She didn't want to mess her house. No problem, she has that right. That's just my take on it.

[campgsp]

I agree they do need independence and leeway. I don't want a robotic dog that is always looking at me for direction. I want one that gets out explores does what a hunting dog should do. All my hunting is done this way. I rarely talk to them. I'm more of the follow the nose type.
I'm fine if they don't want to kennel right away or be put up in the truck after a hunt. I dig it when they want to keep hunting.
But there is a fine line.
If I call them and they dilly dattle around bit cool. But if I call a second time and they're still not responding I'm going to get on them. It's to easy to set a dog back letting them get away with to much. Like I said dogs are smart and they will play the weak hearted like a Fidel. They do it with my wife all the time. And then she gets mad. "Why won't they listen to me"
Me- "you allow them to get away with things to much." And then the no and ya goes on ya know. Friends I only see once in a while control my dogs better then the wife. She just spoils them to much. And that reflects in the control.

My new pup has been being trained by my wife with my guidance. And a little one on one with me only. Shhhh because she goes through it all and then later on let's the dog get away with what she is teaching. Beginners mistakes. But I make it better. But shhhh don't tell her.

[cjhills]

One of the issues with dog training is giving dogs human emotions. Dogs don't know right from wrong. In a dogs world there is no right or wrong. Everything they do is right until a human thinks it is wrong. Stubborn is a human word not a dog word. Some dogs are more intelligent and train easier but none do thing just to irritate. Small puppies do not feel pressure, only fear. Pressure comes when the don't get what the trainer wants and is all in the dogs head
The only thing we really train a bird dog to do is stand still when it wants to go. The real trainers who train guide dogs, circus dogs, dancing dogs and other trained dogs never punish dogs for doing things "wrong". They do many reps until it is a conditioned response and everything is rewarded. Ceasar Milan's methods are totally about balance and attitude.
Pressure comes from body language, eye contact and tone of voice. This is why some people will never be able to train a dog and why one persons methods will not necessarily work for someone else. the top trainers could trade systems tomorrow and they would still be top trainers it is not what you say and do it is how you say and do it.
Sorry about the sermon but it is early and pouring rain so I need something to do. Thanks Cj

[Neil]

What motivates the dog to quit chasing deer if it is allowed to do so for days at a time? If I just let my dogs chase birds they will continue to chase birds. At some point you have to correct the behavior without curbing their desire to find birds.

That is just untrue, many if not most will break themselves from chasing if given enough exposure. Nearly 100% of the good ones.

Too much pressure almost always comes from taking shortcuts, trying to do too much in too little time, mostly from the weekend trainer trying to do a weeks training in a Saturday morning. Dogs learn in short increments, repeated often. More than 10 - 15 minutes of yard training is often counterproductive, and results in too much pressure.

Exception is field work on pattern, learning to find birds, etc. For those you can train an hour or two once a week.

[Chukar12]

I would venture that half the wild bird dogs I see hunting chukars in the desert actually break themselves, they get hauled around by hunters not dog trainers. In a well bred pointing dog, the instinct to point kicks in with experience and maturity and the dog will stand through the flush. Most of what I have read from Ben O Williams seems to rely on this very premise.

My experience with hounds was not markedly different. We trash broke them young out of impatience and or convenience. However, there was always some old dog that had not been beaten off deer or fried that was described as "smart" as in..."he knows what we are hunting." .... IMO because he actually did and was simply given enough time to come to grips and mature into that on his own.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

My point was that hounds do not break themselves from chasing {atleast mine never have} and pointers can break themselves because their instinct to point overrides the chase. If this werent true then no pointer could ever "break" itself.


The hounds that I have had will not stop chasing until they tree or bay what they are chasing. Hounds have better cardio systems then deer and will run them down. Its just that plain and simple. It happens in a matter of hours, not days so if a hound returns home after a few days, it does so out of boredom, not because it didnt catch what it was chasing.

[Winchey]

I thought they can run them down because deer can't pant at a run.

[Neil]

My point was that hounds do not break themselves from chasing {atleast mine never have} and pointers can break themselves because their instinct to point overrides the chase. If this werent true then no pointer could ever "break" itself.


The hounds that I have had will not stop chasing until they tree or bay what they are chasing. Hounds have better cardio systems then deer and will run them down. Its just that plain and simple. It happens in a matter of hours, not days so if a hound returns home after a few days, it does so out of boredom, not because it didnt catch what it was chasing.

Please go back and reread your first post, this is not what you wrote, you said if you did not correct your pointing dog they would continue to chase. You admitt, now, to being wrong, you are wrong about hounds, too. Pre e-collar we trained all of them by running in a pack after encourging them on a track while on lead.

Pressure remains a shortcut, one I take often.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

My point was that hounds do not break themselves from chasing {atleast mine never have} and pointers can break themselves because their instinct to point overrides the chase. If this werent true then no pointer could ever "break" itself.


The hounds that I have had will not stop chasing until they tree or bay what they are chasing. Hounds have better cardio systems then deer and will run them down. Its just that plain and simple. It happens in a matter of hours, not days so if a hound returns home after a few days, it does so out of boredom, not because it didnt catch what it was chasing.

Please go back and reread your first post, this is not what you wrote, you said if you did not correct your pointing dog they would continue to chase. You admitt, now, to being wrong, you are wrong about hounds, too. Pre e-collar we trained all of them by running in a pack after encourging them on a track while on lead.

Pressure remains a shortcut, one I take often.

My posts do not always reflect what my mind is thinking. Shortcut is a good word.

Ive just never had a pointer that was steady to wing and shot without some correction and Ive never had a hound that taught himself what animal he was allowed to chase without correction. My experience with hounds is however limited to my previous pest control job where the dogs were limited to hunting Mt. Lion. We had to train those dogs what they could not chase within a limited amount of time.

[Neil]

What motivates the dog to quit chasing deer if it is allowed to do so for days at a time? If I just let my dogs chase birds they will continue to chase birds. At some point you have to correct the behavior without curbing their desire to find birds.

[Hattrick]

This is a interesting thread many different veiw points on what preasure is. It boils down to this you need to read the dog. Puppies / dogs can handle much more than people think. Its the handler that screws up in most cases. Dogs see black and white. Keep it simple and give them all they can handle from day one and help them learn.

[fuzznut]

Why is pressure such a bad thing here?? When your doing it even if you think your not.
Don't even bother saying style, don't buy it and never will. Ff is a ton of pressure but dogs don't loose style over it....

To your question above, pressure, in and of itself is not a bad thing. The question comes down to - How much, and what type is a bad thing for a particular animal?
If your dog suddenly begins to blink birds...there might have been too much pressure put on him.
If your dog doesn't want to work the field and just strolls around....there might have been too much pressure put on him.
If your dog gets surly when you are training... there might have been too much pressure put on him.
If your dog loses all his style around game and just stands there because he has to... there might have been too much pressure put on him.

You might not believe the loss of "style" is a possible indicator of too much pressure put on a dog, but it is a part of his body language. Style is not just where a dogs tail is, but also his head, his overall posture, his eyes...all included in style. A dog with style is standing tall, confident, very much full of himself, his eyes are determined. He runs full tilt, fast and snappy he wants to cover as much territory as possible because he loves his work. A dog without... is soft, head swinging around, panting, worried, eyes often round and darting. This dog runs listlessly, he gives the appearance of a half hearted search, if he comes upon game he may be hesitant and sometimes you might wonder if he is pointing game, or taking a breather. He lacks style.

In my opinion, style can tell you a whole lot about how training is going with a dog and how much pressure may have been put on him to get him there. As far as FF'd dog not losing style... sure they do, and can if the trainer goes too fast. I've seen dogs that have gone through a poor FF program that do it cause they got to.. not cause they want to. Game is brought to you, so what difference does it make? To many, no difference at all.

Stress, pressure whatever we want to call it has different effects on different animals... some can take it and give it right back. Others will fold if you go over that invisible line. Good trainers can find that line with each dog and know when to back off, or when to accelerate it. Watch your dog and they will tell you.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Well said Fuzz. Lotsa knowledge right there folks!

Doug

[RayGubernat]

There is a big difference between pressure, stress and fear.

I agree completely with this observation. What was not said, and needs to be said is that the exact same stimulus on the part of the trainer can create pressure OR stress OR even fear.

So very much of which response the dog gives, depends on the dog's perception of the stimulus, or correction or discipline ...whatever you want to call it.

I firmly believe that if the dog understands what you are trying to convey, it is pressure to conform to previously established standards of behavior. If the dog does not understand... it is stress which can very rapidly become fear.

In any case, it comes down to the trainer knowing when and how to apply the stimulus, or correction.

RayG

[campgsp]

Fuzznut,
This is where about I stand on the issue of style. I'm sorry I just will never be able to justify pressure as a style related cause. "Fear" more so. I'm not trying to call you out. I just think there is a big misconception of the three. Pressure, stress, and fear related to style.

There is a big difference between pressure, stress and fear. If you think of them on a continuum no dog or person can get through life without learning to handle pressure, the key to avoiding stress is insuring a solution is available to alleviate it; especially in the immature stages. It is by no stretch of the imagination difficult to get compliance from a dog or puppy, they will submit to human pressure. I believe where the debate takes off is when you define what you want from the dog.

Whether you care to hear it or not; and this is no reflection on you Camp, as I have never seen a dog you have touched, pressure that manifests itself to something further down the continuum does show up in style and performance. Defining it is virtually impossible however because there are such varying degrees of expectation, experience and application. It's not just a low tail, or flagging or blinking that is credited to a dog handled with a heavy hand; it can be a dog that turns his head to an approaching handler on point, a dog that abandons his nose and instinct to hunt in a precise range and direction that a human demands, a gait that has lost its animation.

It is my opinion that more people want a trained dog a lot more than they want to train dogs. Taking something out of the dog doesn't matter much to these folks and their purpose.

Chukar12

I think you nailed it "fear".

When trainers do have a heavy hand during teaching the dog, before it has actually understood the command is where all the style goes away. I guess you can use pressure to outline it But I think it's more so from scaring the dog. Pulling on a cc making a dog come to you and then praising him for being their makes them forget all the fear. But pulling them in and then oh ok well now your here. hurts them. Just an example if it makes sense. Or picking them up dropping them before they even know what you want of them.

Definitely think fear is more of the cause for style issues. The dog looking at you when he's on point in anticipation of being corrected. Fear? I think so.

There is a big difference between pressure, stress and fear.

I agree completely with this observation. What was not said, and needs to be said is that the exact same stimulus on the part of the trainer can create pressure OR stress OR even fear.

So very much of which response the dog gives, depends on the dog's perception of the stimulus, or correction or discipline ...whatever you want to call it.

I firmly believe that if the dog understands what you are trying to convey, it is pressure to conform to previously established standards of behavior. If the dog does not understand... it is stress which can very rapidly become fear.

In any case, it comes down to the trainer knowing when and how to apply the stimulus, or correction.

RayG

[Chukar12]

I firmly believe that if the dog understands what you are trying to convey, it is pressure to conform to previously established standards of behavior. If the dog does not understand... it is stress which can very rapidly become fear.

In the multitude of sentences written regarding this, this summarizes the subject well in my opinion. It also relates to a number of other threads very well. In most "puppy programs" using a number of methods, and always with consistency we are trying to get "established standards of behavior" The Huntsmith video on Puppy Development 1 does it very well, showing how the puppies more or less work out certain restrictions on their own. Because I am familiar with it and I have seen the results, I like using a clicker to get established behaviors that my puppies clearly recognize, knowing very well that later when I pressure them for the same behavior in a different situation; around birds for instance, they will know the behavior, its familiar and handy to them ( a habit if you will) and that is what they default to.

Puppies and dogs do not have egos. They do not give their training or life any fore thought and if something presented to them satisfies their desire they are not likely to resist, they usually buy in wholeheartedly. This is different than my own self-reflection, which is often encumbered by my sense of morality or lack thereof, ego, ignorance and general resistance to change. It really makes their existence much simpler, and in the case of sporting dogs, given the right chance to develop it makes their performance pure. That is why I like watching dogs, well bred and maybe well shaped before they are trained and restricted, its something different and better than our human failings, and I love to see it.

[tailcrackin]

Dogs read your eyes, voice, and touch.
They don't most of our what's, and why's. People, don't understand that. You need to adjust, to help the dog. Baby steps, and patience, will help the work between you two. The style might look like disappears for a bit, but it usually doesn't.........dog don't understand the what or why.......and its confused....it is trying to tell it to the trainer, but most don't see it. IMO Thanks Jonesy

[ezzy333]

Sorry, but I disagree in principle with the pressure, stress, and fear correlation. Pressure is trainer related and is placed on the subject when a certain performance is required. Stress or fear is the reaction by the recipient to the pressure being applied. When you tell a pup to come you have explained what is expected. If you insist that the pup follows that command then you have placed pressure on the pup. If you force compliance with a CC the pup is feeling stress when you gently pull him to you even though you always give it a pat on the head when he gets to you. But the pup will express fear when you gently pull him to you and then beat the snot out of it for not coming when called. The only way there is no pressure placed on the pup is when you give the command, you never expect the pup to come and do not make it come.

We go hunting and you miss the first three birds, and no one cares and there was no pressure to hit them so we go home empty handed and happy.

We go hunting and you miss the first three birds, so the family will go to bed hungry tonight since there is no food in the house and you feel lousy because you were feeling the pressure to bring those three birds home since everyone was counting on you. Kind of a stressful situation.

We go hunting and before the first bird even gets up the stranger hunting with you says if you miss the bird he will shoot you. You are feeling the pressure and react by feeling stress and when you miss the bird you are feeling fear.

Pressure is a feeling to expected performance whether coming from the trainer or yourself. In a dogs case it is usually from the trainer. Stress is the reaction of your mind and body to that pressure. And fear comes from knowing there will be severe consequences if you fail. Dogs have all of these feelings and whether they succeed or fail will govern how you feel and if you are a good trainer you will be able to control your feelings and modify the feelings of the dog.

[Chukar12]

Pressure is a feeling to expected performance whether coming from the trainer or yourself. In a dogs case it is usually from the trainer. Stress is the reaction of your mind and body to that pressure. And fear comes from knowing there will be severe consequences if you fail.

Sorry, but I disagree in principle with the pressure, stress, and fear correlation.

Didn't you explain the correlation?

[Maurice]

I have read some of the replies but not all. This might have already been posted. The worst pressure I see in training that really causes confusion to the dogs is a person training to many reps in a session. This is especially true on birds. If I go out and the dog works the 1st bird real nice, we are done even if I have 3 more birds out. Most folks are going to keep working and the dog will crash and burn on 1 of the birds.

Mo

[Hattrick]

Its some really good advice being throwed around this thread right now Fuzznuts an Ray are spot on an a few others as well. I will add this with preasure affecting style? Style is genetic they either have it or they dont. It cant affect it if they anit got it. Most dogs dont. If a dog is fearfull it will not be stylish but I think the word style gets mistaking for intensity. Intensitys is whats affected from a trainer not reading a dog right when training. This robs a dog of its confidence and style if he had any. Most people seem to agree that each dog is different and you need to read the dog an adjust acordingly. I feel in alot of cases giving a dog a year to screw off will cause a traininer to use 10 times the amount of preasure to brake than training at a younger age. Just my 2 cents.

[RayGubernat]

I have read some of the replies but not all. This might have already been posted. The worst pressure I see in training that really causes confusion to the dogs is a person training to many reps in a session. This is especially true on birds. If I go out and the dog works the 1st bird real nice, we are done even if I have 3 more birds out. Most folks are going to keep working and the dog will crash and burn on 1 of the birds.

Mo

A friend of mine who was a pretty fair amateur trainer used to preach to me: "Quit a winner!"

I'm something of a slow learner, but I think I got that part of it now.

Honestly though, for the one dog owner, there are not too many things that are harder to do. At least it was for me.


Does this scenario sound familiar to anyone?

You get your birds on your way home from work on Friday. you make sure the collar is on charge, the launchers are on charge, the tracker or astro is on charge, the blank gun is there, etc.

You get up at O dark thirty Saturday morning, load the dog who wakes up the entire house in the process, load the birds, the gear and drive an hour and a half to the training grounds. You set out birds in the gathering light, walk the dog at heel for fifteen minutes and then...shortly after the sun breaks over the horizon you finally let the dog loose. Then the dog goes to the first trap and does it to perfection!!! YOU are DONE...or you should be done.

Now what do you do with the rest of the birds, and what do you do with a dog that is wound tight as a clockspring? What do you say to your better half when you arrive home as they are finishing breakfast and she asks: " And you wokethe whole house up at that ungodly hour... on a SATURDAY when I can sleep ..for WHAT??"

Now, boys and girls...THAT is pressure, bordering on stress.

No wonder my wife thinks I am nuts for messing with bird dogs. She might actually be right but I won't admit that.

RayG

[Hattrick]

Thats preasure right there lol!

[Chukar12]

Now what?
Ice chest and fly rod