Vet Today

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:36 am

Just took banks in to get neutered. He ways 58 lbs at 10 months.

Update: He is now retrieving comfortably triple marks, and retrieving a dead (but thawed) pigeon.
As soon as he's healed up we will start working with live birds and the gun.
Just an update, since i have not been very active recently.
Isaac and Banks

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:48 am

What were your reasons for having him castrated ?

.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:41 am

Just don't answer the self proclaimed "Doc" kid...
Whatever you, your family and your vet decide will work out just fine. As you gain wisdom through the years, remember what it is like to be young and earning the rights, privileges and responsibility to your own accountability. With that perspective, you may be wildly effective in helping shape the world by influencing people in a manner that actually makes a difference.

Without that perspective you may be relegated to know it all status, perhaps sitting at the end of the bar stretching theories and science to their breaking point like the love child of my mother-in-law and Clifford C. Clavin.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:03 am

Doc E wrote:What were your reasons for having him castrated ?

.

the same as everyone else, i figured being neutered was so common you might know why.
But, i am getting him castrated because i do not want to breed him at any point, and i don't want an "accident" happening in the field trying to hunt.
Also id like to cut down on his spraying (which he hasn't started yet)

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:06 pm

I don't think anyone was trying to be a smart aleck, it's your dog and you can what you please with him. But there are folks with experience and depth of knowlege on here that understand that neutering a puppy like yours can have serious consequences later in life, that's all.

Speedy recovery to your pup.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:13 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Just don't answer the self proclaimed "Doc" kid...

Yeh -- He certainly wouldn't want to read scientific evidence concerning spay/neuter would he (OR YOU :roll: )

.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:18 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote:What were your reasons for having him castrated ?

.
1. the same as everyone else,
2. i figured being neutered was so common you might know why.
3. But, i am getting him castrated because i do not want to breed him at any point, and i don't want an "accident" happening in the field trying to hunt.
4. Also id like to cut down on his spraying (which he hasn't started yet)

1. Wrong again -- Certainly not the same as "Everyone" else. Many of us know better than castration at 10 months of age.
2. Most all of us know when it's proper to do so --- and when it's not
3. & 4. Good reasons, but definitely the wrong age to get it done.
I have made a few posts regarding spay/neuter -- you should have done a "search" first.

But if the "snipping" has already been done -- it's too late to change anything now --- you can't reattatch them.

.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:03 pm

Well Doc (giggle,giggle,chuckle,chuckle,guffaw,guffaw),

He probably should be aware, as should I of the scientific evidence...and in this case so should his parents, and his scientific vet, and anybody else not on an Internet chat site capable of drawing social security willing to publicly embarrass themselves by having an on going diatribe with a 15 year old.

However, as you stated the nuts are gone, and short of a private message to the lad engaging him in a conversation regarding your concerns, and helping if you can ... And if you can't ...simply butting out of what the kid and his family do with their property.... especially since there was no question or desire for opinion expressed in the post, you are just being boorish at best and probably rude in most circles.

Whatever keeps your mind sharp Einstein....

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:09 pm

I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Chukar12 wrote: 1. He probably should be aware, as should I of the scientific evidence...and in this case so should his parents, and his scientific vet, and anybody else not on an Internet chat site capable of drawing social security willing to publicly embarrass themselves by having an on going diatribe with a 15 year old.

2. However, as you stated the nuts are gone,

3. Whatever keeps your mind sharp Einstein....

1. We certainly wouldn't want a 15 year old (and his dad) to be aware of the very latest in scientific research now, would we :roll:
2. Correct -- they can't be re-attached

3. Keeping up with the very latest scientific research (by folks MUCH more educated than his Vet) is what keeps my mind sharp.

The most recent article i've read is from a Peer Reviewed Scientific Journal dated 5/233/2013 -- How about you

Dull mind regards,

.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:29 pm

I really like the numbering system you employ and the emoticons...they strike at the heart of clarity.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:37 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I really like the numbering system you employ and the emoticons...they strike at the heart of clarity.

They certainly didn't help you in answering my questions -- did they ?

In case you couldn't figure it all by yourself, #1 and #3 were questions -- just for you.
.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:47 pm

No I couldn't tell they were questions, they could have been but lacking the proper punctuation I hated to assume. I know with all the prescriptions you must fill out with your impressive credentials formalities do get lost. Please forgive me. However, even if they were phrased as such; they do not warrant an answer. My opinion regarding the original posters comments is mitigated by the fact that the deed is done and he is 15. If I expressed anything to him about my opinion or knowledge I would do it in a way that was appropriate. You do not have that ability or desire.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:41 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks

Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.

As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.

here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:50 pm

I had a spaniel puppy that I did not sell because only one testical had desended. At six months I decided it was never going to drop so I had him neutered at a vet college in Texas. I trained him, ran him in trials (never told anyone) and gave him to my Sister and family as a hunting dog/pet. The only physical differnce I saw was he grew a little taller than his brothers. The amazing thing I noticed was his retention of training was amazing. I saw him a couple times a year and he was always honest, even though my nephew and niece did all they could to untrain him. He was a great dog all of his 15 years.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:20 pm

I want to e clear here...I am not arguing my opinion on whether or not we should spay or neuter and when...I have an opinion on that, it didn't seem appropriate here.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks

Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.

As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.

here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf

why does he need to know? I can't believe the utter rudeness of Doc in most of his post over the past few months to a young man that is asking questions about his dog. And we don't need others adding to it. the time to talk was before and not afterwards. And when we do talk there is no reason for anyone to listen. I know it would hurt some feelings if they couldn't hear themselves expound on the many subjects that come up and telling themselves they are doing it for the poster.

Ezzy

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Only dogs that lose their nuts or uterus at my outfit are the ones I've carefully evaluated,that evaluation is not complete until they are adults,2 years plus,unless there is a genetic defect that exposes itself earlier.I nutted one and gave it away because of cryptochrid,gave every opportunity for the droppage that never happend,at 20 months it was lopped off and I gave away a AF AA CH sired pup for FREE!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:28 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I want to e clear here...I am not arguing my opinion on whether or not we should spay or neuter and when...I have an opinion on that, it didn't seem appropriate here.

Same here, wrong place and wrong time.

Ezzy

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:28 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks

Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.

As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.

here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf

Thnks for the info, i definetly did not know that, but theres nothing i can do now but let the dog grow.

You have to understand, this dog is not going to be some hunt test champion with a thousand and a half titles and symbols before his name..
He is just a boys dog, hunting dog, companion. I definetly dont want anything bad to happen to him, at all. and if something really bad happens you can say "i told you so"
Isaac and Banks

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:12 am

I understand ....hopefully he will be a super hunting dog and the surgery doesn't effect him...Just be alert you have this little extra knowledge now so that IF anything does start you can do somethings that will help

Like regular quality food not high power foods as to not promote growth.

If you ever see anything that looks like he may not be moving right ..add glucosamine to his daily diet..this will help get that extra lubrication to his joints

Should he have incontinence problems you can get proin this will help to stop it...
These are some things you can watch out for

there are a couple vets here that try to help
Doc E and Dog Dr both have helped a lot and just have an active hunting dogs welfare at heart and yes though you are not trialing again you are hunting which is active and that is far more then the average pooch get, So it isn't about an I told you so

Good Luck look forward to more posts from you

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:07 pm

The problem with all of the research is that their are not enough dogs in the groups. I would be more inclined to listen to my vet who has forty years in the business and has records to prove what diseases she treats the most often. I lean toward later on males but have seen hundreds neutered at six months with no issues. I have seen one that grew taller than normal presumably from early neutering but we don't know. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears. if you have two hundred dogs in each group and four get dysplasia in one group and two in the other that is 100% increase. but it is still insignificant. Cj

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:38 pm

He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:02 pm

For Banks, this is all a mute point really. If the pup were mine, I would keep him thin and athletic. This will help to keep his hips and elbows in check. That is assuming he has good hips in his lineage.

Isaac, Enjoy your pup. Run him, hunt him keep him in good body condition. I really dont know that a dog his age and size need 5 cups. Becareful not to over feed. I like to be abe to easily feel hips and ribs, but not really see them.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:10 pm

cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj

Oooops on you.
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205

.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:35 pm

Youve neutered him,don't bother testing for any of that stuff,it's worthless information,That information at this point "Is what it is"

Double Shot Banks wrote:He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:51 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,

Again, I ask -- Why (if you're not going to be able to breed him) ?
Hips and Elbows can't be OFA certified until 24 months.
"Eye stuff" (CERF and PRA) can be checked anytime.

OFA Hips and Elbows, CERF, CNM, EIC and PRA are tests to see what the odds are of passing on genetic defects to offspring and if any special precautions need to be taken with females the dog may be bred to.
Since he is "clipped' none of this matters............

onuhunter02 · Post by **onuhunter02** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:05 pm

Wildweeds wrote:Youve neutered him,don't bother testing for any of that stuff,it's worthless information,That information at this point "Is what it is"

Double Shot Banks wrote:He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,

Agreed save your money, enjoy your dog and just let him tell you over time when he is ready to retire.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:48 pm

There interactions between Doc E and Issac have to be some of the more uncomfortable I have seen.

Doc E wrote:[
3. Keeping up with the very latest scientific research (by folks MUCH more educated than his Vet) is what keeps my mind sharp.

I assume you know his vet?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:05 pm

How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:11 pm

Doc E wrote:
cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj
Oooops on you.
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205

.

The UCDavis report is a joke. In the females their are significantly higher numbers tested in early neutered females. plus the number of dogs having the diseases was so low in most cases it was insignificant a bit over 700 dogs were tracked divided into four groups all goldens nothing was tracked about the dogs conditioning. Males neutered after a year did the best in almost every health category. I will still go by what my vet sees everyday. There as not been big enough numbers and very many factors have not been considered.
I haven't had time to read the other one yet but my bet would be more biased baloney. Not for or against but Also not ready to buy into a obviously slanted report. Haven't seen any evidence either way every body has their agenda. CJ

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:15 pm

Right now you can see his ribs just barely, more so when he turns. and to me he looks perfect maybe a little slim but he is getting lots of exercise, if you would like I can post a picture.
He will get his hips and elbows checked because i care and i would like to know if he will be hunting most of his life or only half.
He has a few dogs in his pedigree that have been certified hips, eyes, elbows but not all.

If it is something i should really be concerned i could lower his food when he reaches the peak of growth, keep in mind he hasn't grown very much the past few months, definitely not gotten taller, maybe he has just filled out a little. To us it looked like he wast going to get much bigger, and the size he is at is perfect in my book

Isaac and Banks

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:23 pm

cjhills wrote:
Doc E wrote:
cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj
Oooops on you.
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205

.

The UCDavis report is a joke. In the females their are significantly higher numbers tested in early neutered females. plus the number of dogs having the diseases was so low in most cases it was insignificant a bit over 700 dogs were tracked divided into four groups all goldens nothing was tracked about the dogs conditioning. Males neutered after a year did the best in almost every health category. I will still go by what my vet sees everyday. There as not been big enough numbers and very many factors have not been considered.

What is a "neutered female"???

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:35 pm

Isaac
don't fuss about this stuff...it is not important now...really Turn your computer off and train your dog as planned. If I don't miss my mark he will be better than most.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:14 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..

What does this have to do with this topic?

Ezzy

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:00 pm

Neutered is the correct term for an "altered" dog. Both males and females are neutered - we just choose to use the word spayed for females...don't know why. Neutering in it's true definition is the removal of all or part of sexual organs.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
What does this have to do with this topic?

Ezzy

You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:33 am

Double shot banks,

Have you ever considered becoming a talk show host? You seem to me able to make the most ordinary statements and controversy errupts. :roll:

Keep on keeping on and have fun with your dog. That IS the reason most of us have dogs to begin with, though its easy to forget if spend too much time here...

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:39 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
What does this have to do with this topic?

Ezzy

You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.

We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.

Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?

I sure hope it does but ....................

Ezzy

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:42 am

Good for you on the dog, do as you wish he is yours and yours alone.

I got a shorthair here is over 12 now was cut at like 6 months. Please dont tell him he was done wrong, my brother made the decison is it his dog.

Some people seem to belive they have all the answers. Ha ha, I'm still learning..... the dog will do fine, keep up the good work.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:
What does this have to do with this topic?

Ezzy

You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.

ezzy333 wrote: We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.

Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?

I sure hope it does but ....................

Ezzy

http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/fire ... euter.html

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

and in case you want to question UC Davis http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/index.cfm

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:51 pm

What does this have to do with this topic?

Ezzy[/quote]

You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.[/quote]
We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.

Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?

I sure hope it does but ....................

Ezzy[/quote]

I asked a simple question on a forum( discussion) hoping that the OP might do some research and learn something....Why do you get offended by that? Your post does nothing for the OP where as mine was directly to him and was meant to invoke thought......