rattlesnake vacine

thorson · Post by **thorson** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:12 pm

Has anyone ever used this stuff or talked to a vet regarding this vaccine? The snakes here in central NE are just plain terrible this year and I think I am going to look into this. Thanks in advance.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:37 pm

I heard somewhere that it wasnt worth it, and it would be better to spend the money to have someone snake break the dog. Dont know how true that is. Theres not a lot of snakes here so I havent done either.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:43 pm

hopefully Wildrose will get on here and relay his experience with the vaccine. he has had nothing but good reports so far. Just remember that the vaccine is only for western Diamondback venom and that it is NOT meant to take the place of treatment. your dog still needs to be treated after getting bit, you just have a little more time to get the treatment, AND, the signs should not be as severe in a vaccinated dog.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:11 pm

No the vaccine does NOT cover all species of rattlers
The vaccine is only to help slow the venoms response giving you more time to get the dog to the vet
also the vaccine needs to be done according to the area your in...coolers areas are 1 vaccine and 30 days later a second one starting about 60 days before snake season and then in areas where snake can be out year round TX AZ ca NM to name a few the vaccine after the intial 2 shots needs to be done every 6 months to keep the titers up

If I had the choice of only one method Vaccine or Avoidance I will take the Avoidance hands down
The Avoidance is insureance the vaccine is uninsured motorist
as avoidance will help prevent a dog or pup from going in and getting a face full and bneck full of venom it can not help an accidental run over

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:11 pm

I agree, except I would say that the vaccine is like car insurance- some help, or peace of mind, in case an accident happens. avoidance training is like drivers ed- it teaches the dog to avoid an accident that it can see coming. a run over is liie being rear ended or hit coming thru an intersection- you dont see it coming and cant do anything about it, BUT you have some insurance (vaccination) to make things easier to deal with.

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:49 pm

I'm pretty sure Phil and Gayla of RedEarthOutfitters highly recommend the vaccine as well. I think it's manufacturered by Red Rock Biologics (if I got the name right) and, as far as I know, they're still working on a vaccine to cover the midwest pit vipers.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:14 pm

Hadn't been around this forum much in a long time. Doc drug me back in so blame him HA!

I have kept up with the Red Rock Vaccine since their first trials were published, in order to get the vaccine approved for it's first provisional license.

I have read through hundreds of their reports, as well as every report I can get my hands on from vets that have used it.

So far this is what I see.

I have seen two separate reprts, two different clinics, of injection site abcesses. Upon review, it appears that the vaccine was givin improperly or that their was questionable at best handling of the vaccine and needles during vaccination.

Every single report I have seen showing the post vaccine bite treatment, prognosis and recovery of dogs that had recieved both doses showed dramatically reduced short and long term effects. Platelet counts wich normally head into the toilet on unvaccinated dogs, (causes sever clotting problems), swelling, edema necrotic sloughing and all other typical symptoms are greatly reduced in the vaccinated dogs.

The negative side effects of the vaccine are rare and typically very mild with proper handling (which is why it will probably be several years before the vaccine is avaiable OTC) as it MUST BE GIVEN CORRECTLY!!!

The only adverse reaction really tends to occur if you get a vaccinated dog bitten that then does not get proper vet care. In some cases with a deep muscle bite where heavy envenomation occurs, while the dog is far better off than if it had not been vaccinated, failure to still seek timely veterinary care can result in the dog still dying or suffering severe problems post bite as the volume of venom may very well overwhelm the antibodies. Essentially the dog has in it's blood stream 2 vials of antivenin (in larger dogs like most of ours) and the ability to produce more, but it takes time.

I myself have now had four vaccinated dogs bitten, four of my clients have as well and in every case both the long term and short term effects typical of rattlesnake envenomation were reduced by 70-90%.

I recently had a vaccinated pup 14mo take two bites which almost certainly would have killed him had ne not been vaccinated. I did not discover he'd been bitten till at least six/eight hours after. In that time frame death would have most likely occured to a non vaccinated dog. One was on the muzzle and one on the neck, just to the right of the voice box.

Either one of these bites can quickoly be fatal due to the normal swelling and edema, as well as from the venom spreading. The dog was completely healed in six days and back to work. Oddly enough his littermate sister was bitten the day before sustained more damage initially and long term and took over two weeks to fully heal, and she will now be scarred.

In the last few months I have developed a very close working relationship with Red Rock and all I can say is all the evidence tells me that it's by far the cheapest insurance you can buy for your dog, particularly when combined with a good thorough snake breaking.

Snake breaking alond will only prevent a dog from being bitten by snakes it KNOWS are there. Many bites can occur though on a dog moving down wind that "bumps one" or steps on it, just as they can bump birds they do not smell.

Quite often a snake that is actively hunting or which is surprised will never rattle until AFTER the first strike.

One correction/clarification. The vaccine is effective on the Western diamond back, and it's subspecies the prairie Rattler, and pygmy rattlers. The western has quite a few sub types.

As far as I know the only CONUS rattlesnakes that it is not effective on is the mojave green. They are actually working on it as well but due to the neurotoxin and it's complexity it's gonna be quite a chore.

I can get a clarification on that however if it will help. I do believe if you will go to their website you can read the FAQ section and have just about all your questions answered.

Just to clarify, I'm in no way employed by Red Rock, nor do I get any freebies from them. I do however have a very good relationship with their outstanding staff and any question I have will be answered by their top research vets or the owner, not some comissioned salesman who just "really needs to sell one more box to make his quota".

I had been a believer but was still doing my own research until recently. After seeing first hand what a valuable vaccine it is I ordered sixty doses to vaccinate the rest of the crew here. Folks if I were not a HUGE believer I would never lay out that kind of cash.

I now am putting on a segment in all of my snake breaking clinics specifically educating people on the benefits of the vaccine.

Hope this answers your questions and if it doesn't visit their website. Google "Red Rock Biologics" CR

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:19 am

I have had both dogs vaccinated and would recomend its use without question. We have had a big snake problem this year, probably due to the lack of vegatation, we are just encountering more of them. A hunting buddy just returned from a trip to the grassland where he met a hunter with a wirehair that had been bitten four times by the same snake. The dog had been vaccinated and after a trip to the vet for antibiotics etc the vets prognosis was to let him hunt. The effects of the venom seem to be greatly reduced. I plan on finding a qualified snake avoidance trainer as my four year old setter has a hate thing about snakes. I am sure that the vaccine coupled with avoidance training would help immensely. Avoidance wont take care of the run by bite but should take the worry out of an intentional attack by the dog.SDGORD

thorson · Post by **thorson** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:45 am

sdgord where did you get the vaccine from (area) and what is the cost?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:03 am

Email QCBirddogs. His wife is a vet, they can ship, and you will get best price.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:57 am

The web site is http://www.redrockbiologics.com/ .

My dogs have had the initial round of shots. I'll check to see what they need before I go hunting in the West.

IMHO, your dogs should be snake broke and have the vaccine. The vaccine is very cheap and effective insurance.

Anybody know someone near SW OH that does snake breaking?

Best regards,

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:26 pm

What types of snakes does this vaccine protect against?
This rattlesnake vaccine was developed to protect against Western Diamondback Rattlesnake venom. It is most effective against this snake's venom.

Venom from many other snakes found throughout the United States is similar to the venom of the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake. Because of these similarities, this vaccine also provides protection against the venoms of the Western Rattlesnake (including the Prairie, Great Basin, Northern and Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes), Sidewinder, Timber Rattlesnake, Massasauga and the Copperhead. This vaccine provides partial protection against the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake.

This vaccine does not provide protection against the Water Moccasin (Cottonmouth), Mojave Rattlesnake or Coral Snakes. Red Rock Biologics is developing a variety of vaccines to provide the best protection against poisonous snakes for dogs in each part of the country

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:58 pm

Thorson, a vet in Tea SD held a clinic for anyone wanting their dogs vaccinated. The cost for both injections was forty bucks. He stopped by Mitchell to administer the second dose for my dogs. He was going hunting out west, but he wound up saving me several hours and some gas money.SDGORD

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:26 pm

I had talked to my vet about it a couple of times.

I took Teal in for her vaccinations and the tech there told me they already had 2 bite cases come in this fall and both showed very little swelling or any symptoms of any kind and both dogs recovered fine.

My biggest worry where we go is Diamond Backs and Dr Carter assured me this was the way to go.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:45 am

Many Vets wont carry the Vaccine if they dont operate in a "Snake" area. It has to be ordered in 25 dose quantities, which makes it costly to order for one client.

Therefor we will ship it to your Vet if need be. It has to be purchased and administered by a Licensed Veterinarian.

Phil

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:17 pm

I have all three of my dogs vacinated.it is once ayear after the 2 shots 24 days apart.We have 40 some dogs get the shot at the same time so from the same vet so its $7 a shot for me.The vet was told by Redrock that if we knew a dog had been bit or saw it we had around 30 to 40 minutes to get that dog a steroid shot which we keep at the lodge now.Two dogs have been bit so far that I know have had it and got to the vet and one was a chest bite an the dog was fine the next day just really thirty I was told.Cheap security blanket for me and my peace of mind.I was told that the shot would be fine for Prairie,W.Diamonds,and maybe E.Dbacks.