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When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:10 pm
by MATT4126
Long story short....have had since puppy 5 years ago female gsp...rescued male gsp at 1 yr old. Female formidable hunter but big baby in house. On rare occasion for no real reason the male goes after female. This might happen once every third month or twice in one week then not again for 4 months. Tonight he caught her ear and drew blood for the first time. Female is well trained...male has been a work in progress with real progress being made. I know lots of posts indicate tha some dogs just have it in them. I am yet to contact breeder of male...he is now 4.5 and part of our family, but can't have him terrorize the other dog. Any suggestions...I'm a big boy and can take any criticism or good ideas.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:08 pm
by mudhunter
A male dog attacking a female dog is a big red flag!! If he is truly attacking attacking for no reason I would have the dog put down (sorry to be blunt).

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:12 pm
by mountaindogs
That's really tough without seeing the details. My gut is you male need to respect YOU enough to leave other dog alone. YOU watch for stiff leg posture and low head staring and correct him before he starts. But its always possible your female is sending subtle signals of challenge. Sounds crazy but first thing I would do is put the male on DHA at least 400mg / day. There is a study suggesting it MAY help. Easiest thing but probably will not address real issue.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:37 pm
by ezzy333
Guess my solution would be the male stays in a kennel with a run unless being actively supervised.

Ezzy

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:14 pm
by DonF
I had a dog like that in one time. A client wanted me to do something with it. They would go hunting and it would go after their dogs. Long story short, it tried to bite me. Made it wish it had died as a puppy. Second time I had the client pick it up. Told him he really needed to get rid of it. He didn't and about six months later it took his wife. Sad he waited so long to put that dog down.

I would suggest keeping it in a kennel also but it sounds like this is just a random thing, probably jelocy (sp). That creates a problem if you might want to hunt them together or that dog with someone else's.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:17 pm
by Sharon
mudhunter wrote:A male dog attacking a female dog is a big red flag!! If he is truly attacking attacking for no reason I would have the dog put down (sorry to be blunt).
Me too. I've had to put down 2 dogs ( both rescues) - one an unpredictable fear biter and one just plain vicious.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:12 pm
by gotpointers
There are some things that can not be tolerated. I put down a really really nice male after he tried to kill my female. That set me back monetarily big time. But you got to do what you gotta do

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:11 am
by Cajun Casey
Some shorthairs fight for fun. I think that's why I like the breed so much - they remind me of my dad's family. :) The dog should knock it off when told.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:19 am
by MATT4126
Thanks for the reply's. I guess the perplexing part for me is that the behavior is so random. He is fine one minute and tearing into my female the next. Although my gut tells me to put him down, I can't help but second guess a decision that is so final.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:22 am
by Cajun Casey
Maybe he needs more exercise. I am confused, though. You say he's a rescue, then mention a breeder?

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:46 am
by rinker
I have seen cases where two dogs didn't get along for some reason. They would be fine with other dogs, but would fight when together. I would probably not get rid of this dog now. I would just keep the two of them seperated.

The vast majority of the damage done by a dog bite is from the canine teeth. Have them pulled if you keep the dog.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:57 am
by Cajun Casey
Are you serious? Pull teeth?

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:30 am
by rinker
Yes, I'm serious about pulling the canine teeth. I actually stole this advice from John Wick. Years ago, I had coon hounds and subscribed to the various hound magazines. John Wick is a very prominent figure in the hound world, and in one of the magazine he gave advice on various topics. Aggression is a real issue with the hound guys, a lot of hounds with no other issues will some times growl or fight at the tree. John Wick's advice was generally to put aggressive dogs down, but if you were going to take a chance and keep the dog have his canine teeth pulled. Virtually all of the damage done by a dog bite is from the canine teeth, they are specifically for tearing flesh. A dog does not need his canine teeth to eat a pan of dog food. I thought this was excellent advice when I first read it years ago.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:52 am
by MATT4126
Cajun...maybe re-homed him is the correct terminology. He was placed in a home then returned to the breeder due to a divorce so the story goes. We then got him from the original breeder. Mi-Karma is the line out of winchester VA. Her dogs are mainly bred for show.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:57 am
by Elkhunter
I dont think I would be jumping on the put em down band wagon just yet. If that was the first time he ever drew blood I would not be in panic mode. I had a GSP that LOVED to fight, I just had to watch him around other dominant males. He had a few scrapes over the years, never once bit or attacked human. Watch it and correct it, if its not fear biting then I think you should be able to get a handle on it.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:17 pm
by Cajun Casey
MATT4126 wrote:Cajun...maybe re-homed him is the correct terminology. He was placed in a home then returned to the breeder due to a divorce so the story goes. We then got him from the original breeder. Mi-Karma is the line out of winchester VA. Her dogs are mainly bred for show.
Okay. Honestly, if I didn't break up a couple of scraps a day, I'd wonder if the mushrooms in the dog yards were "special." Your dog sounds normal. The fish oil (I'd be specific and recommend tuna oil) may help. The study mentioned was out of Italy last year. You might try getting him a special toy. I have one male that will jump on his own mother if he doesn't have his special giant squeaky tennis ball. He's a scrapper, but he will knock it off when told.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:21 pm
by SCT
I think it's a personal thing, if you want to tolerate aggressiveness and deal with it, then so be it. I personally wouldn't have an aggressive dog. Nor would I run any of my dogs with an aggressive dog.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:08 pm
by Jagerdawg
In three and a half years the dog has drawn blood on the ear once and people are wanting to put the dog down? My dogs draw blood during play should I put them down. Just because you see no signs of provocation doesn't mean it was , dogs behavior can be subtle if you are not skilled at reading them. Dogs willl spat now and then even males and females.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:44 pm
by Hattrick
I second fish Fish oil

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:01 pm
by deke
Jagerdawg :

That is exactly what I was thinking. My dogs are constantly beat up from fighting around the house, just last week one of them got the other by the lip and drug him around the house howling until I could get upstairs to stop him. Dogs will be dogs, but if you are super worried about it then put a muzzle on the viscious (sp?) animal, or like recommended pull his teeth, preferably right after his next attack, under no drugs, so he knows who the boss is :D

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:11 pm
by mountaindogs
I am not endorsing this trainer... know nothing of them. I googled dog aggression warning signs and ran across this. What I do like is how it breaks down and shows you signs. Most people who think attacks are "out of the blue " just missed the signs. Also notice how the person corrects the dog and it responds. You need to be in charge. If you watch you should be able to prevent by correcting the first signs of trouble.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FLrgtR9U ... LrgtR9U6Z8
Don't allow aggressive dogs around other dogs unsupervised

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:18 am
by bobman
Mountain dogs advice is solid the dog has to know YOU wont tolerate fighting
I have a EP bitch I rescued thats very aggressive if another dog crowds her space.

When she starts something I grab her by the neck and shake the living @&$& out her and say NO
I dont like doing it but shes now to the point all it takes is me to say her name and no and she stops

You have to watch for the body language its there if you pay attention and they have to believe you mean what you say and zero tolerance.

Killing a dog over this is wrong in my opinion and IMO 99 percent of dogs that will bite another dog will never bite a human

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:07 pm
by Neil
ezzy333 wrote:Guess my solution would be the male stays in a kennel with a run unless being actively supervised.

Ezzy
+1.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:00 pm
by gotpointers
At an owner's standpoint sure it can be lived with, as a breeder it's not something I would allow to be passed on.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:28 pm
by markj
the dog has to know YOU wont tolerate fighting
Yep. Whup his butt or he will hurt someone or some other dog.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:30 pm
by DoubleBarrel GunDogs
Neil wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Guess my solution would be the male stays in a kennel with a run unless being actively supervised.

Ezzy
+1.
+2

Also put both dogs together on the chain gang. Any sign of aggression earns him a lesson with the figure 8. www.huntsmith.com

Nate

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:37 pm
by birddog1968
markj wrote:
the dog has to know YOU wont tolerate fighting
Yep. Whup his butt or he will hurt someone or some other dog.

Could make him meaner too.....

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:23 am
by Munster
birddog1968 wrote:
markj wrote:
the dog has to know YOU wont tolerate fighting
Yep. Whup his butt or he will hurt someone or some other dog.

Could make him meaner too.....
Very true. Sometime aggression breeds aggression.

I wouldnt deal with it. Life is to short and there are to many good dogs out there. Before he didnt draw blood, now he has. It is escalating. Plus a I have zero tolerance, and so do the Germans, for males that will fight a female or a puppy.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:53 pm
by highcotton
Dogs that would rather fight than hunt when in the field should be removed from the gene pool.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:46 pm
by bobman
All that takes is neutering

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:39 am
by roaniecowpony
No offense to anyone here, but putting a dog down is something I wouldn't do based on an internet forum advice. If you don't know or aren't sure, seek a well trusted professional's opinion based on his direct observation.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:12 pm
by MATT4126
thanks for all the replies....since my original post we have worked hard on some tough love training, but want to throw this out there. my wife made the correlation between when we apply flea/tic medication to his aggressiveness. we have not had an issue since my original post and based on her observation we have not applied any flea/tic meds. has anyone else had such an adverse reaction? i guess the real test would be to reapply and see if his disposition changes, or if the training we have done has worked some sort of miracle.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:39 pm
by Neil
There has been at least one full moon since then, I don't think that caused the cure either.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:40 pm
by Sharon
No sure way of connecting those two events. Could be one of many things that made the change.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:52 pm
by slistoe
birddog1968 wrote:
markj wrote:
the dog has to know YOU wont tolerate fighting
Yep. Whup his butt or he will hurt someone or some other dog.

Could make him meaner too.....
Only if you aren't up to the job of finishing the job.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:59 pm
by FirearmFan
MATT4126 wrote:thanks for all the replies....since my original post we have worked hard on some tough love training, but want to throw this out there. my wife made the correlation between when we apply flea/tic medication to his aggressiveness. we have not had an issue since my original post and based on her observation we have not applied any flea/tic meds. has anyone else had such an adverse reaction? i guess the real test would be to reapply and see if his disposition changes, or if the training we have done has worked some sort of miracle.



Search for a thread on here called "Vectra Flea & Tick". The OP speaks of a dog that experienced lethargic and seizure like symptoms that were noted to occur concurrently with the application of the Vectra. I'm not a vet or a doctor so I can't verify anything but its an example of another person who has experienced some effects that could have potentially been related to their flea and tick medication.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:19 pm
by david0311
Cajun Casey wrote:
MATT4126 wrote: Okay. Honestly, if I didn't break up a couple of scraps a day, I'd wonder if the mushrooms in the dog yards were "special." Your dog sounds normal. The fish oil (I'd be specific and recommend tuna oil) may help. The study mentioned was out of Italy last year. You might try getting him a special toy. I have one male that will jump on his own mother if he doesn't have his special giant squeaky tennis ball. He's a scrapper, but he will knock it off when told.
Are you serious?? You tolerate that??

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:22 pm
by displaced_texan
There is a huge difference between aggression/scrapping and really fighting. The first two don't bother me a bit. If a dog was a true fighter I'd put it down in a heartbeat.

We have a dog that's a fear biter. That's an easily managed problem in my experience.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:23 pm
by Cajun Casey
david0311 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
MATT4126 wrote: Okay. Honestly, if I didn't break up a couple of scraps a day, I'd wonder if the mushrooms in the dog yards were "special." Your dog sounds normal. The fish oil (I'd be specific and recommend tuna oil) may help. The study mentioned was out of Italy last year. You might try getting him a special toy. I have one male that will jump on his own mother if he doesn't have his special giant squeaky tennis ball. He's a scrapper, but he will knock it off when told.
Are you serious?? You tolerate that??
Yes. I don't care what they do on their own time, but they better knock it off when I tell them to.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:59 am
by slistoe
Cajun Casey wrote:
david0311 wrote:
Are you serious?? You tolerate that??
Yes. I don't care what they do on their own time, but they better knock it off when I tell them to.
Obviously they are not actually scrapping, because if they were, you would care. Or do dead dogs not bother you?

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:16 pm
by displaced_texan
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
david0311 wrote:
Are you serious?? You tolerate that??
Yes. I don't care what they do on their own time, but they better knock it off when I tell them to.
Obviously they are not actually scrapping, because if they were, you would care. Or do dead dogs not bother you?
Scrapping and fighting are totally different.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:41 am
by Cajun Casey
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
david0311 wrote:
Are you serious?? You tolerate that??
Yes. I don't care what they do on their own time, but they better knock it off when I tell them to.
Obviously they are not actually scrapping, because if they were, you would care. Or do dead dogs not bother you?
You just have pretend internet dogs, don't you?

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:56 am
by kninebirddog
MATT4126 wrote:thanks for all the replies....since my original post we have worked hard on some tough love training, but want to throw this out there. my wife made the correlation between when we apply flea/tic medication to his aggressiveness. we have not had an issue since my original post and based on her observation we have not applied any flea/tic meds. has anyone else had such an adverse reaction? i guess the real test would be to reapply and see if his disposition changes, or if the training we have done has worked some sort of miracle.
There could be a problem with the chemicals animals are exposed to ....Might want to make note of that also go and do some research to see if there is more reports of animals having similar behavioral issues.

Also the tough love can be of help...I don't care for unwanted behavior even if it is a hormonal female she to will be reminded of what is not acceptable.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:23 pm
by slistoe
Cajun Casey wrote:
slistoe wrote: Obviously they are not actually scrapping, because if they were, you would care. Or do dead dogs not bother you?
You just have pretend internet dogs, don't you?
At least they don't have temperament problems.
Have you ever come home to a dead dog lying in it's own blood pool? You might start caring what they do on their own time.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:13 pm
by buck
MATT4126 wrote: On rare occasion for no real reason the male goes after female. This might happen once every third month or twice in one week then not again for 4 months.

IMHO, this is not a case of random, for no reason spontaneous attacks. There is some kind of stimuli that the male is responding to, you just don't know what it is. Could be something as simple as YOUR body language or body language from the female. If this stimuli is random, so will the attacks be. The male/female thing is BS, sex has little or no influence on how dogs respond to each other, other than interest in breeding, especially if they are house/kennel mates. If the male only shows aggression towards THIS one female, I would suspect social aggression within the social family, with the male attempting to raise his pecking order over the female and this is just a display of ritualized aggression. There may or not be a "trigger" to this type of aggression. How does the female react to the attacks? Does she submit or fight back with aggression?

The application of the tick med may very well be the stimuli, and could be a result of a reaction to it, the inability to identify the female because of reducing his smelling capabilities or even the touching of the animal during application. Your wife should be applauded for noticing.

Re: When is enough enough aggressive dog

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:48 pm
by displaced_texan
buck wrote:
MATT4126 wrote: On rare occasion for no real reason the male goes after female. This might happen once every third month or twice in one week then not again for 4 months.

IMHO, this is not a case of random, for no reason spontaneous attacks. There is some kind of stimuli that the male is responding to, you just don't know what it is. Could be something as simple as YOUR body language or body language from the female. If this stimuli is random, so will the attacks be. The male/female thing is BS, sex has little or no influence on how dogs respond to each other, other than interest in breeding, especially if they are house/kennel mates. If the male only shows aggression towards THIS one female, I would suspect social aggression within the social family, with the male attempting to raise his pecking order over the female and this is just a display of ritualized aggression. There may or not be a "trigger" to this type of aggression. How does the female react to the attacks? Does she submit or fight back with aggression?

The application of the tick med may very well be the stimuli, and could be a result of a reaction to it, the inability to identify the female because of reducing his smelling capabilities or even the touching of the animal during application. Your wife should be applauded for noticing.
That's exactly what random is...