How Is a German shorthair Pointer supposed to hunt?

TheLukai1100 · Post by **TheLukai1100** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:05 am

Recently I asked how to Get my German Shorthair to stay in range, and everyone told me that's not what they were bred for and to get a Flushing dog.
But I already have a German shorthair, hes 10 weeks old. I wanted a GSP because of their ability to find birds. here in southern Maine the grouse are pretty scarce, it might be 1000 yards before you find one, and a flushing dog wouldn't do to well.

So I asked how to teach a dog to stay in range I think I said 20 yards, but I really just want him to stay in sight (which with the thick Maine brush is at times is 20 yards). and people told me that its not what pointers were bred for and to get a lab. because pointers were bred to hunt until they find a bird and point it.
But that being said I Don't want my dog to hunt 1000 yards out until he finds the bird and points it, flushes it, and than chase it even further.

I don't want to buy a GPS for my dog because that's like $500 (which I don't have), and I know before GPS's people successfully hunted German shorthairs and successfully brought them home without any hassle.

I mean if he hunts until he finds a bird and he goes on point how am I supposed to know where he is?

I Have a bell but the bell I have says it can be heard out to 300 yards, If my dog is 500 yards through the brush and pointing how am I supposed to know hes pointing or where he is?

OR am I just completely misunderstanding how German shorthaired pointers hunt?

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:08 am

I hear ya.
A dog will hunt any way you choose to train them. But you must understand that they will get out there some. In the open my dogs will get way out circle and work back towards me. I like it done this way and I prefer it better then any other way. In the woods they will do the same but I'll dare not say they get out as far in the woods as they do in the open because they just don't.
Actually in the woods I find that my dogs are checking in more then when we're in the open. What I can say to this is that I bond with my dogs, I respect them and in return they respect me. Thats where it starts. I truely believe they would do anything for me, and them checking in like that in the woods just proves it to me they care where I'm at and that I know where they are at. A beeper or bell helps when they stop on a find. It's your job to know the direction. I'm pretty sure anyone hunting with a dog is watching and or listening for the dog if not your loss not the dogs.

You want a dog that hunts for and with you. "With" and "for" are big ones. The dog is your partner not your toy,your meat bag, he's your friend and hunting partner until the end. If he's getting out more then you want him to in a situation call him in towards you. Easy as that.
Keep your head up, not everyone is a trial person, not everyone wants a dog's running to the county line.
You have a hunting dog and darnit train that dog to be obedient, listen to your every command, and be his buddy not his enemy and he will hunt with and for you for as long as you can and he can hunt.

Remember when he gets out more then you like call him in towards you. But don't be so redundant that your keeping him in so close that you wouldn't need a dog to hunt with. Give him some free roam. A 100 yards is not far at all ever..

Good luck.

TheLukai1100 · Post by **TheLukai1100** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:25 am

campgsp wrote: Remember when he gets out more then you like call him in towards you. But don't be so redundant that your keeping him in so close that you wouldn't need a dog to hunt with. Give him some free roam. A 100 yards is not far at all ever..

Yeah I know what you mean, If I hear the bell getting to far off I will recall him. I mean if I can barley hear the bell.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:09 am

At 10 weeks old you don't know the dog's natural range,cooperation level or prey drive.
First see what you have. Pups begin to stretch out around 5 months old. Expose him to the woods now,work on cooperation.

2much2loud · Post by **2much2loud** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:16 am

For what it's worth my friend has an excellent GSP and taught the dog hunt your style 20-30 yards away when he says the command "too far" works for him.... He has shot many grouse over him this way

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:47 am

First off, |don't think you have a 1000 yard dog on your hands, I really doubt that the dog you got will run much more than 50-100 yards most of the time. Sure he may blow you off sometimes and take a big cast, but that is pointing dogs, with a young immature dog, you just get used to it. If you want him within 100 yards, call him in when he gets to 100.

The reason people told you to get a flusher, is because flushers operate at around 20 yards more naturally than a pointer. If your dog ranges 20 yards, it makes no difference if it is a pointer or flusher with regards to bird finding.

You need to stop worrying about range, especially since you don't have a problem with it now and probably never will.

Worry about how you are going to get that dog on 100's of grouse and woodcock so he can learn to find and handle birds.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:03 am

Hey there: Fellow Mainer here. I am in the Augsta Area.

I hunt GSP for the last 15 years. And Brittanies. I would bet the most distance they hunt is 250 yards, If a dog is running more than that in the woods it is not hunting it is chasing something. Not saying that some do not but for the most part a dog in tight cover is hunting and will check in with you if you created that good bond with the pup and inexplicably there is always birds around you. Why because you plant birds, when training the finish of your pup. and when you get him bird crazy as a pup.

Range is not an issue.
#1 Your training will create an honest dog.
#2 You will want a dog that gets out there to find those elusive widely spaced birds. That is why you have a pointer to get out there to find what you can not. They cover more ground than you do.
#3 As far as hearing and finding your dog: Cabelas makes a beeper only collar, it is will go off when the dog is on point (Point only mode) or will beep in one manner while the dog is running then change to a different beepeing pattern when the dog is on Point. (I use a good quality bell, with the point only mode).
#4 I highly doubt if you got a GSP here in Maine that you will have dog that will be out 1000 yards in the Maine woods, especiallly in Ruff habitat.
#5 When training, you will be planting birds, teaching the dog to respond to changes of direction, holding point on a bird etc.
6# For the most part you will not have issues.
#7 Join the local NAVHDA group.
#8 Teach your pup its basic house commands, Here, No, but let your pup explore in safety, let him figure things out, let him learn how to find you using his nose etc.

Good luck and have fun.
Rick

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:46 am

TheLukai1100 wrote:Recently I asked how to Get my German Shorthair to stay in range, and everyone told me that's not what they were bred for and to get a Flushing dog.
But I already have a German shorthair, hes 10 weeks old. I wanted a GSP because of their ability to find birds. here in southern Maine the grouse are pretty scarce, it might be 1000 yards before you find one, and a flushing dog wouldn't do

I don't think you understand Flushing dogs then. Pointing breeds do not have better noses - both types of dogs are bred to find birds and that's what they do. Their methods are just different. GSPs can be big running dogs. I'm sure you can reel him in if that's how you work him from the start. And the birds being scarce could be because you haven't had a dog to find them.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:18 am

Two of my GSP puppies from the last litter have become Amazing grouse dogs. I personally do not hunt grouse, but both of these dogs are sired by a big running trial dog. Both hunt pretty big in open spaces, over 100-250 yards in TN mtn "open space" and both recall on a dime. In heavy woodland cover they are bouncing around at maybe 40-70 yards depending, and if the woods thin out they'll go 100. In heavy cover, ussually the dog is LISTENING for you. and vs versa. You can also see brush moving around and an occasional body part

If they can not hear you nor you them, them call them back if you feel you need to. I train a turn whistle and pull them back with that since I don't want them all the way back in just closer. And if you are hunting thick woods, I think a bell would be a pretty good investment. personally. The dogs will adapt if you train them to recall, handle, and WANT to hunt WITH you.

Seeing in only one of your senses.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:08 am

Winchey wrote:First off, |don't think you have a 1000 yard dog on your hands

Even if by some weird freak he ended up with a 1000 yard dog, there is no way the dog will get to 1000 yards out in the Maine bush. Unless it is a run off renegade and then he will be looking for a new dog at a year old because that one will simply be gone somewhere to not be found again.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:31 am

A lovett's beeper collar will help you greatly. They also have a setting to indicate when a dog is on point. I have my collar on the hawk scream in the point mode to hold the quail. It beeps periodically when the dogs running. The unit is relatively cheap at around $100.

I have several ENGLISH pointers and setters here that are sons, daughters,, and a few littermates too of grouse woods Champions. I use them for the wide open deserts of NM. They do great because they are intelligent, biddable and bird crazy. Never mind the range, a smart dog adjusts to the conditions to produce birds for you and them. If they like you that is

Also if someone tries to sell you a pup out of Champion lines be sure it was not a closed breed competition. May the best dog win regardless of breed.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:04 am

He has his moments lol, but ya, if he did that all the time up here he would be useless. That said, he is trial bred, and I let him roll more than most would and he is 95% of the time inside 200 yards. Most AA bred pointers that are brought up in the woods aren't 1000 yard dogs, no where close, and they all need to get on wild birds in the woods consistently to get them started out.

My Munsterlander will take the occasional 2-400 yard cast on a breakaway if he is wound up and over excited, or go a little to big if he gets on trash or something, but I definitely spent more time getting him in the cover and pushing him out past 50 yards then I ever did reeling him in. I am nearly positive you will with the dog you have too. Get him in the cover hunting and finding some wild birds, then you can worry about range, but probably won't need to.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:04 am

Lukai,

Some of this can get confusing to a beginner, your specific purpose and desire for performance as described, is not typical for pointing dog performance. To answer your question as directly as possible, with apologies for the assumptions that have to be made; a Gsp is supposed to hunt in a forward pattern actively seeking objectives for game while using the scenting conditions to its advantage. Typically a pointing dog is expected and bred to seek game beyond the path of the hunter, thereby covering more ground and making more game contact than the foot hunter could or a hunter with a flushing dog. The last scenario being more typical of the range you desire, hence the answers you are getting.

A flushing dog will hunt with its nose much lower to the ground than a pointer and will not typically scent birds at as far a distance. Your GSP can be trained to hunt at a reasonable range for the terrain, but a standard 20, 40, or 60 yards is probably not reasonable. It is doubtful your dog will out distance your bell...

I would suggest that you invest the thirty or fourth bucks in the Huntsmith Puppy Development video. It will show you a number of helpful ways to start your dogs training. You could also use you tube to see how a pointing dog should hold a bird for you to flush, this should satisfy your concerns about the dog flushing on its own too far out. This level of training is not difficult to achieve, and it will help open your eyes to how to get the most out of your dog. I would not lament for a moment over your choice...find a pointing dog mentor or do some research to understand, these are small investments in the lifetime enjoyment of a bird dog.

Good luck to you,
Joe

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:22 pm

Winchey wrote:

He has his moments lol,.......

My Munsterlander ....... go a little to big if he gets on trash or something,

So the Munster goes big because of trash or excitement of the breakout, but the setter is because he is trial bred?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:47 pm

The setter goes bigger than the Munsterlander because the setter is bred to go bigger, have more run, then any Munsterlander I am aware of, and seems to find the run and search itself more rewarding in itself than the Munsterlander. When the setter goes too big it is generally because he is either too wound up as well, or because birds are hard to find and he goes bigger and bigger trying to find them. If the Munsterlander has gone birdless to long, he is more likely to quit then go bigger, generally if he makes a big cast it is because he is to wound up, or is on something he's not supposed to be on.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:32 pm

So the setter doesn't run deer or rabbits?

I fully understand that the setter will normally work further than the munster, but it is interesting that you would interpret actions outside the norm differently.

Just for sake of discussion - The munster normally works 50-100 yards but occasionally hits 4-500 because of temporary pent up energy or off game, the setter normally works 150-200 but occasionally hits 1000 because it is trial bred?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:46 pm

They are completely different dogs. The setter is much more independent and does have a little more renegade in him when it comes to running to feel the breeze in his face sometimes. The Munsterlander does not go for a joy run very long or often.

The Munsterlander has an affinity for fur, he will chase a rabbit to the next county if I let him or a deer, bobcat, bear, if it will run from him he will chase it. I have never witnessed the setter run fur before, I haven't really seen the Munsterlander run anything other than rabbits lately either, probably because there isn't as many deer in the places I now run them mostly. But the setter does not have the same drive for fur as the Munsterlander, or even that of my Golden Retriever mutt. That is not to say he has never run a deer or a moose before, I am sure he has. He won't run a rabbit like the Munster, he will, point, move, point, move, point move, it is easy to tell he is on one.

He is also more apt to remember there is always a woodcock 600 yards from where I let them go in familiar covers and slip off and go point it.

For all the problems you get from the independence, occasional renegade attitude, I have probably spent less time getting a handle on him, then I did breaking the other one on fur and getting it off the logging road, or trail and in the cover hunting.

From the looks of Lukai's dogs pedigree, the amount of trial dogs and hunting companion gundogs I have seen up here, his dog will be more a kin to my Munsterlander, or even my golden then the setter, and the last thing I would be worrying about if I were him would be how I was gonna keep it in range.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:45 pm

At 10 weeks of pup age, your priorities are skewed.

A bell's range depends upon the ear, the weather conditions and the cover.

The best bet for the dog is for you to join a training group to reduce the fear and to buy a beeper....set it on point only to accompany the bell.

The "GPS" you wish to avoid will allow a happy outcome when bad things happen to good dogs.

MN Bonasa · Post by **MN Bonasa** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:01 pm

The Garmin GPS is a grouse hunters best friend, I would save up and get one it is a great piece of mind. On those windy days the bell can go out of hearing pretty quickly. I have no opinion on a beeper because I don't own one but am thinking of getting one also. I had the same concerns when I first got my shorthair about range and all, she likes to get ahead of me from time to time but always comes back to check in or when she get a little farther out than I like I give her a recall command. If the dog is taught the basics well then you shouldn't have any issues.

buckshot1 · Post by **buckshot1** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:20 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:Hey there: Fellow Mainer here. I am in the Augsta Area.

I hunt GSP for the last 15 years. And Brittanies. I would bet the most distance they hunt is 250 yards, If a dog is running more than that in the woods it is not hunting it is chasing something. Not saying that some do not but for the most part a dog in tight cover is hunting and will check in with you if you created that good bond with the pup and inexplicably there is always birds around you. Why because you plant birds, when training the finish of your pup. and when you get him bird crazy as a pup.

Range is not an issue.
#1 Your training will create an honest dog.
#2 You will want a dog that gets out there to find those elusive widely spaced birds. That is why you have a pointer to get out there to find what you can not. They cover more ground than you do.
#3 As far as hearing and finding your dog: Cabelas makes a beeper only collar, it is will go off when the dog is on point (Point only mode) or will beep in one manner while the dog is running then change to a different beepeing pattern when the dog is on Point. (I use a good quality bell, with the point only mode).
#4 I highly doubt if you got a GSP here in Maine that you will have dog that will be out 1000 yards in the Maine woods, especiallly in Ruff habitat.
#5 When training, you will be planting birds, teaching the dog to respond to changes of direction, holding point on a bird etc.
6# For the most part you will not have issues.
#7 Join the local NAVHDA group.
#8 Teach your pup its basic house commands, Here, No, but let your pup explore in safety, let him figure things out, let him learn how to find you using his nose etc.

Good luck and have fun.
Rick

I second this advice. I'll add that you need to take him on lots of off leash walks when he's a puppy, at least every other day. 15 minutes max at first. This will get him in the habit of keeping track of your direction and location. When walking him off leash, hide behind a tree every now and then. He'll get nervous and return to find you. This will reinforce his desire to keep track of you. A "1000 yard pointer" that is honest will not run out 1000 yards in heavy cover. He runs 1000 yards only when the cover allows him to run that far without losing track of you. If your pup learns to hunt with you, he'll adjust his range to the cover. He won't be a "400 yard dog" or a "40 yard dog." He'll be both.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:00 pm

First of all, when you asked for advise, you asked how to keep a pointer within 20 yrds., which is unreasonable. Secondly, you said "pointer", which for most of us means English pointer and for the most part are pretty big running dogs. Not critisizing you but just trying to explain why you got the replies you did from the info given.

Charlie

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:31 pm

I think a lot of people overestimate the range of their dogs in cover. I don't know anyone, field trialer or hunter alike that wants a 1000 yard or even a 500 yard ruffed grouse dog. Taking a long cast is one thing, but the normal range that far isn't what most grouse hunters/trialers would call a good range.

I like a bigger running dog in the woods. The bells I use can be heard anywhere from 200 to 300+ yards. Getting to know my dog's range was fun for me and I didn't have a Garmin for a lot of that time. I used the bell to track her and if I couldn't find her when she went on point I used the locate feature on her beeper collar.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:53 pm

"How is a German Short hair suppose to hunt?" quote

It's job is to find birds in the style for which it has been bred.... close /far

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:46 pm

A good dog will adjust its range according to the cover. It is not something that is trained, but rather something learned from experience of hunting different types of terrain. JMO.

Charlie

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:12 am

Lukai -

On the other post on this subject I suggested that you take your youngster out into a field or into the woods and walk with it and hide from it when it got too involived to pay attention to where you were. Did you do that?

I suspect that you did not. If so, you really should do that so you know what sort of dog you have. I think you might be pleasantly surprised if you do.

Instead of obsessing about what it is YOU want, and worrying that you made a poor choice in hunting companions, perhaps you should get out and work with the dog so you can find out what THE DOG wants. It is a puppy for Chrissake. Quit worrying about what it will be in a year and start working on what it will be tomorrow. A shorthair, properly bred, can be an AWESOME bird dog. What it turns into is largely up to you, so get to it. Bond with the dog, play with it, let it run in the woods and the fields. BE THE TEAM you want to be. How this partnership turns out is largely up to you. The dog will do its part... and more...I GUARANTEE IT. And I don't even know the dog.

Maybe, just maybe, you will find that the dog wants to stay with you, just as much as it wants to hunt. As its master and its hunter it is your job to work with the dog so that you can develop a mutual trust and understanding . When the dog's desire takes it out of your sight, that trust and understanding will allow it to hunt until its desire to be with you overtakes the desire to hunt. That trust will allow you to LET the dog hunt out of sight because you TRUST that the dog will come back in. Dogs generally do not have a problem learning to trust their master. It is usually the human that does not have sufficient trust in the dog. You have to learn to trust the dog. It is really just that simple.

A bird dog is desire with a nose attached. It's purpose in life is to find birds...for its master. A bird dog is bred to hunt with a degree of independence. You need to temper that desire and independence and make it work...for you.

There are gadgets and tools and all manner of aids and such. I know...I got 'em all. But in truth the only things you really need are time, patience, a hunk of rope, shoeleather and birds.

I really wish you were closer. I could show you a pointer or two that can, will and actually have run out to that 1000 yards when in front of a horse in horseback shooting dog and all age competition. They have a few of those silly ribbons to prove it too. But I would not just show you that. I would show you those same dogs hunting out in front of me, reaching out and then swinging back to keep in touch, closing down in heavy cover and opening back up when the cover thins... because they understand that is how I WANT them to hunt. Do they slip from sight occasionally...sure. BUT THEY ALWAYS COME BACK. And these are field trial bred pointers. They do this because I trust them and they trust me and they have learned that is how we get birds. They LOVE to get birds. Yours will too.

Your puppy is almost certainly bred with a whole lot more cooperative spirit than the lunatic dogs I trial and hunt with. So it should not only be possible for you to mold the dog into what you want...it should be fairly easy...if you can learn to trust the dog.

Go out and have some fun with your pup and help it to grow into the kind of bird dog it can be. You might just find that if you help the dog be the kind of bird dog it can be...that you ill grow as a hunter and get a whole lot more enjoyment out of your time afield with you canine partner.

I did...and still do. Enjoy the ride.

RayG

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