Why hate on the Black GSP?

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abradley0408
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Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:21 pm

I recently got a white and black patched and ticked GSP. It seems that every where I go with him, people ask what type of dog he is. When I tell them he is a GSP its almost always followed up with a, Not pure bred or I hope you have papers for that dog. I do have papers, and have hunted over both of the parents. One person even asked why breed a solid black gsp, which his father was. I always respond with, they weren't breed for the color of there coat, they were because they both are absolute machines in the field. I know that the only real thing this dog can't do is go to the show ring, but it gets old fast having people look down on my dog before they even see him work.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by DonF » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:45 pm

I've had a lot of GSP's. Love them. Got my first about 1984. Never heard of a black GSP until a few years ago. Never saw one till around the same time and I've never seen another. It was a very very nice dog that was given to the guy by a game preserve because they said it had to much prey drive and would never point. The owner brought her over and was going to give her away because she wouldn't point. She pointed! I think the only thing wrong with her was nobody ever asked her to. Lot of people think if they don't do it without any help they don't do it at all. had I not seen that dog, black and white would still be just a rumor to me. I didn't see any paper's but the guy said he had them and she looked very much like a lot of GSP's I've seen over the years, worked like one too!

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:54 pm

I found this article in looking into the origins of the Black GSP.


http://www.almostheavengsps.com/Content ... d%20Origin

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mtlhdr » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:56 pm

AKC color standard:

Color
The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified.

In my very limited experience, black is high demand in certain circles (obviously not the AKC show ring). The first three pups selected in my pup's litter were the only black pups in the litter; they were selected purely on color. I don't believe the Germans view black the same way the AKC does.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:59 pm

mtlhdr wrote:AKC color standard:

I don't believe the Germans view black the same way the AKC does.

They don't. They have had the black ones on even footing with the livers for years. The Article I posted talks about this.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:00 pm

FCI Standard:
COLOUR
:

Solid liver without markings.

Liver with small white or flecked markings on chest and legs.

Dark liver roan, with liver head, liver patches or specks. The basic colour of such a dog
is not liver mixed with white, or white with liver, but the coat is such an even, intensive
mixture of liver and white that it results in that kind of inconspicuous appearance
[camouflage] of the dog which is so valuable in practical hunting. On the inner sides
of the hind lighter.

Light liver roan with liver head, liver patches, specks, or without patches. In this colouring
there are fewer liver hairs, the white hairs predominate.

Black colour in the same nuances [shades] as the liver, or the liver roan colours.
Yellow tan markings are permitted.

Blaze, snip with speckled flews are permissible.

As to colouration, this breed has the advantage of great variety within complete and equal acceptability.
From solid liver through all variations to predominantly white, no colouration or pattern should be given
preference in the showring. The plainly marked, “ordinary” looking, GSP might not be particularly
eye catching but may well be better constructed than its more flashily marked competition. If so, it
should be the winner. The same applies to Group and Show level. You may need to look beyond the
surface glamour, or lack of it!
Simply put, no combination of liver or liver and white is unacceptable on the body of a GSP. Of course,
“black” may be substituted for “liver” in all of the above. As for “liver”: it is simply a good, rich brown.
Most breeders aim for a deep, “Club chocolate” colour, and on either solids or liver/whites, this is the
most attractive. However, if the dog is in good coat and condition this is more important than the depth
of colour.

Notes based on FCI Standard 119, adopted in Australia 1996, updated 2001.

Taken from http://www.centainegsp.com/images/GSP_FCI_2001.pdf

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:15 pm

ACooper wrote:
As to colouration, this breed has the advantage of great variety within complete and equal acceptability.
From solid liver through all variations to predominantly white, no colouration or pattern should be given
preference in the showring. The plainly marked, “ordinary” looking, GSP might not be particularly
eye catching but may well be better constructed than its more flashily marked competition. If so, it
should be the winner. The same applies to Group and Show level. You may need to look beyond the
surface glamour, or lack of it!
Well said.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:23 pm

I believe I read where the Germans would drown the white GSPs as pups as they considered it a flaw.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:32 pm

Carolina Gundogs wrote:I believe I read where the Germans would drown the white GSPs as pups as they considered it a flaw.
They must not have talked to the modern EP guys. :lol:

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Tyler S » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:05 pm

Ain't no hating here brother :D there have always been black GSPs. If memory serves me correct, some of the early shorthairs were crossed with Arkwright pointers in Prussia, and yes many of the whites were "dunked" in the early days. From what I hear about 20% of the dogs in Germany now are black. My grandfather had a black Roan male some years ago. What he liked in etiquette he made up for in talking points with guest. Most people in the south 35 years ago had never seen a shorthair in person, let alone a black one. I would love to have one in my pack.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by GSP7 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:23 pm

I heard 40 years ago Hitler forced breeders to cull white. IIRC it's in one of the real old books too

Early white GSPs in America came from the Danish breeders, original Moesgaard , Holevgaards, Koge, etc

My first GSP in 1971 has from the original Moesgaard lines, Moesgaards Rip, Coco, Ruffy, Ib, etc. Have the pedigree back to the 1930s and 20s

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Tyler S » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:18 pm

GSP7 wrote: Early white GSPs in America came from the Danish breeders, original Moesgaard , Holevgaards, Koge, etc

My first GSP in 1971 has from the original Moesgaard lines, Moesgaards Rip, Coco, Ruffy, Ib, etc. Have the pedigree back to the 1930s and 20s
The Danes seemed particularly fond of the white dogs. The Germans thought they looked too much like an EP :? The NFC in 1971 was actually a tri color GSP, forlord or frulord lines (spelling) I think

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:21 pm

I dont hate on em, just smile when I see litter postings that read.....

BLK/WHT pups $800

LV/WHT pups $500


So I can only assume from that stuff that they were usually bred for color mainly. My opinion though.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:25 pm

Interesting because not that way here. There were 3 of the 8 in the liter that had black and 2 were the last to go. I got mine as the last pick.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by steamer » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:40 pm

I don't think anyone has ever asked me if my black and white gsp was pure bred or if I had papers. if they did I think that would be the end of our conversation. they must of not heard of sharp shooters kennel or pottsiepen lines. I just watched mine free run for an hour in the 90 deg. heat . we stopped at the pond so he could cool down. he went into some cat tails and I saw two hen mallards sneak out the other end. he didn't see them but hit the scent trail and tracked them on the water for about 150 yards then searched the cat tails and cover for 30 mins .he found and made a too hand retrieve of a live and well young hen. this was without any commands. I loaded him up and released the duck she swam away no worse for the wear. I was going to do some bird work but decided this was a good note to end on. there is no hate going on here. it is my understanding that the breed standard was written before most people here in the U S had heard of or saw a black gsp . that's just something I have read a few times and don't know if its really true. just provide your dog a good home hunt him as much as you can and don't worry what other people say.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by SD Pheasant Slayer » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:56 pm

I get a lot of the same comments with my solid black male. I politely tell people the black is relatively rare, but that he's all shorthair. Most people show surprise and comment with something polite. Others insist on telling me how I've been fleeced by my breeder. I chalk it up as ignorance and go on about my business. Their opinion doesn't matter much - I couldn't be happier with him. That being said, I do get the occasional request to stud him out for people that know nothing about him except that he's solid black, and that irritates me to no end.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:01 pm

the black GSP is a result of pointer being crossed in.... you look at those black and white dogs every once in a while you will see one thrown that has a pointer head and all legs.

You guys kill me. who cares what folks say about your dog. just thank the heavens that your GSP isn't lemon and white...

Just for the record I bought my black & white GSP based on color. :?

Jim

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:14 pm

SD Pheasant Slayer wrote:I get a lot of the same comments with my solid black male. I politely tell people the black is relatively rare, but that he's all shorthair. Most people show surprise and comment with something polite. Others insist on telling me how I've been fleeced by my breeder. I chalk it up as ignorance and go on about my business. Their opinion doesn't matter much - I couldn't be happier with him. That being said, I do get the occasional request to stud him out for people that know nothing about him except that he's solid black, and that irritates me to no end.
Here is my planned response if ever anyone says I've been "fleeced by my breeder:"
"If a breeder is so ignorant in the breed as to not be aware of all the color options and their genetics, I would not be buying from them. Rest assured I have done much homework on the breed and the breeder."

I have a new black and white girl now. LOVE her. As stated, ALL GSP!
Image
Image

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I dont hate on em, just smile when I see litter postings that read.....

BLK/WHT pups $800

LV/WHT pups $500


So I can only assume from that stuff that they were usually bred for color mainly. My opinion though.

Agreed, adds like this are very telling.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Some charge for solid color that way too. Labs OFTEN have chocolate several hundred higher. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by GSP7 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:11 pm

Tyler S wrote:
GSP7 wrote: Early white GSPs in America came from the Danish breeders, original Moesgaard , Holevgaards, Koge, etc

My first GSP in 1971 has from the original Moesgaard lines, Moesgaards Rip, Coco, Ruffy, Ib, etc. Have the pedigree back to the 1930s and 20s
The Danes seemed particularly fond of the white dogs. The Germans thought they looked too much like an EP :? The NFC in 1971 was actually a tri color GSP, forlord or frulord lines (spelling) I think
ImageImageImage
......................................................................Moesgaards Dandy

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:48 pm

GSP7 wrote:I heard 40 years ago Hitler forced breeders to cull white. IIRC it's in one of the real old books too

Early white GSPs in America came from the Danish breeders, original Moesgaard , Holevgaards, Koge, etc

My first GSP in 1971 has from the original Moesgaard lines, Moesgaards Rip, Coco, Ruffy, Ib, etc. Have the pedigree back to the 1930s and 20s
You might want to check your dates. WWII, you know the one with Hitler, was seventy years ago. Moesgaard's IB arrived in the early 1950s.

My problem with black shorthairs is their owners, for the most part. The color is not some especially valuable novelty, nor is it more authentic. The Conformation issue is political in one registry. They may be shown in the UKC ring. There are some nice ones, some not so much, just as in liver.

I don't like black dogs. Personal preference.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Rockett » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:32 am

I love my b&w guys! Was given a hard time in the show ring with 2 but had some great wins to be very proud of! Now we just stick to what they love doing!
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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by gotpointers » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:21 am

I like the black shorthairs. My buddy has one we hunt with pretty often and she's a good dog. Germany I understand doesent have the upland bird hunting availability it used to way back in the day. Driven hunts and tower shoots are about all the average income Hunter will see. Who cares about what anyone including a registry says. They don't feed your dog or pay your bills. If its a good dog and you are happy with it #$%k em :D

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Red » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:57 am

How can anyone not like this Black dog? :D

Not mine

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:24 am

I love seeing all these black shorthairs. Thanks for sharing pics and experiences, there are some very good looking black GSP's out there.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:06 am

What I do hate is the big fuss made over something like color. If I don't care for black then people wonder why I HATE it? If I don't care about white no one asks why I hate it but rather except that we all have our preferences. This alone tells me that there is a predacious about black.

I like black as a color but admit I would have no desire to own one till the color is included in the Standard for the breed. Same for the Brits or any other breed. But then that is my understanding of what a breed is and why there has to be a Standard if we are going to continue to have the breeds we love.

Ezzy

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Red » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:00 am

I would have no desire to own one till the color is included in the Standard for the breed.
But it is, in Germeny where the breed started.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by GSP7 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:00 am

Cajun Casey wrote: You might want to check your dates. WWII, you know the one with Hitler, was seventy years ago. Moesgaard's IB arrived in the early 1950s.

I don't like black dogs. Personal preference.
And your point is ??...... What does you statement have do do with anything? :roll:



.
Last edited by GSP7 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:03 am

Red wrote:
I would have no desire to own one till the color is included in the Standard for the breed.
But it is, in Germeny where the breed started.

+1

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:09 am

Red wrote:
I would have no desire to own one till the color is included in the Standard for the breed.
But it is, in Germeny where the breed started.
So if I was in Germany I would own a black one if I wanted it. If you go back in history I think you will find that at the time the standard was being written here in the US black wasn't included in Germany either.

Ezzy

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mask » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:26 am

The dogs I see in trials out here don't look much like the German dogs anyway so why is the color so important? I haven't hunted with a gsp for 30 years but the ones I see today look different and hunt different as well. If the dog is good and you like it that is what counts. Maybe there should be an American standard for gsps without color as a factor.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:50 am

I think there already is an American standard written & agreed upon by the German Shorthaired Pointer Club of AMERICA!!! (GSPCA) :D

Let me just add this probably every breed that originated in Germany has changed after coming to this country for better or worse no matter who likes it or who don't.This is not GERMANY.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Bossman27 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:42 pm

I've had people ask if mine is a Dalmatian. For the most part the feedback i get is really positive.

By no means am I saying this is true, but I had heard a rumor that the reason the AKC wouldn't recognize black is because it is more of a dominant color gene and they were worried about liver becoming rare? It sounds hokey but I figured i'd throw it out there in case anyone has heard the same.

At the end of the day I couldn't give two craps what other people think of my black GSP. Once they get out in the field with him I would bet they wouldn't care anymore =).

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by markj » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:46 pm

I believe I read where the Germans would drown the white GSPs as pups as they considered it a flaw
Ilex vom hege-haus was all white with a liver head was a KS dog too.

ww2 saw the third richt and they wanted all things german to be german, they saw the roan and ticked shorthairs as the type they wanted, so all others were done in.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:53 pm

This is a descent read about the GSP's history and coloring:

http://www.westwindgsps.com/german_shor ... istory.htm

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by hoppingsp » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:14 pm

I personally like the black and white gsp. I had a guy offer to give me his but I already have full house but would have loved to have gotten her.

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Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:27 pm

GSP7 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: You might want to check your dates. WWII, you know the one with Hitler, was seventy years ago. Moesgaard's IB arrived in the early 1950s.

I don't like black dogs. Personal preference.
And your point is ??...... What does you statement have do do with anything? :roll:



.

The point is the way you worded your post it sounds as if you're saying Hitjer was having white pups dunked in 1973.

However I assume you mean that you received the info regarding Hitler and white dogs 40 years ago.

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Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote: I think you will find that at the time the standard was being written here in the US black wasn't included in Germany either.

Ezzy
I believe this is correct. Or very close.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by hi-tailyn » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:51 pm

If my short memory is correct, :roll: we just voted and passed that Black and White is now a valid color in the GSPCA standards. That it was on its way to be passed by AKC.

So there is no b & w color fault anymore.

B&W color doesn't make them any better or worse than the next solid white body with solid liver headed GSP. 8)

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by abradley0408 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:04 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:If my short memory is correct, :roll: we just voted and passed that Black and White is now a valid color in the GSPCA standards. That it was on its way to be passed by AKC.

So there is no b & w color fault anymore.

B&W color doesn't make them any better or worse than the next solid white body with solid liver headed GSP. 8)

I hope this is true.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Bossman27 wrote:I've had people ask if mine is a Dalmatian. For the most part the feedback i get is really positive.

By no means am I saying this is true, but I had heard a rumor that the reason the AKC wouldn't recognize black is because it is more of a dominant color gene and they were worried about liver becoming rare? It sounds hokey but I figured i'd throw it out there in case anyone has heard the same.

At the end of the day I couldn't give two craps what other people think of my black GSP. Once they get out in the field with him I would bet they wouldn't care anymore =).
Just a note, remember AKC has nothing to do with writing the standard. Their only function is to conform to the standard the breed club(that's you) provides for them to follow.

Ezzy

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:53 pm

If it passed is news to me I never received a ballot voting on it anytime recently,regardless one way or the other I will never own one I don't like it just like the Germans didn't like white.
To each their own it's only my opinion & preference. :)

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:45 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I don't like it just like the Germans didn't like white.To each their own it's only my opinion & preference.
We do see a few white/ LIver, white / black dogs standing a stud on some of the German club websites.
Last edited by Ms. Cage on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mask » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:58 pm

As is evident I know nothing about gsp's. I saw a post about a person that had a litter of orange and/or lemon pups so are these colors along with white ok by the american standard?

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:09 pm

mask wrote: I saw a post about a person that had a litter of orange and/or lemon pups so are these colors along with white ok by the american standard?
Depends on which pointer/gsp guy you talk to. As for standard, NO.

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Vonzeppelinkennels
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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:21 pm

No O&W is not ok by the Standard & hopefully NEVER will be but there are those that will say it's only a color.

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Adam
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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Adam » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:17 am

hi-tailyn wrote:If my short memory is correct, :roll: we just voted and passed that Black and White is now a valid color in the GSPCA standards. That it was on its way to be passed by AKC.

So there is no b & w color fault anymore.

B&W color doesn't make them any better or worse than the next solid white body with solid liver headed GSP. 8)
This is not true the actual percentage of votes in favor of black being added to the standard went down from the last vote just a couple years ago.

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Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:47 am

Also just to clarify, it isn't just an AKC fault, it's a DQ. But to my knowledge AKC is the only registry still restricting the color black. It is still incredibly hard to show a solid liver and they have always been a part of the standard.

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Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:52 am

I have a solid liver GSP, every time I take him around none bird dog people, I get the "nice lab" "can I pet your lab" "what happened to your labs tail?" I could care less, we also have b & w dogs, not sure I'll get another just based on the fact that I prefer liver dogs.

I am more curious as to why the OP is offended/bothered/annoyed by anyone that is obviously ignorant about the breed.

My pointing lab
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ImageUploadedByTapatalk1374166316.340893.jpg (107.7 KiB) Viewed 53307 times
Grace the B&W
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