Why hate on the Black GSP?

User avatar
Vonzeppelinkennels
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: Amelia,Ohio

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:59 am

And He is a very nice pointing lab at that too Andy. :D If you like what you have does it make a difference what I or anyone else thinks??
I hear all the time how my predomanitely white dogs are more pointer then GSPS but I like what I have & will keep producing & breeding what I like & could care less what others think.
I have heard here on this forum as well as in the field been told I don't even know my own breeding.I know just a little bit more then some think but still plenty I need to learn unlike some of these experts.
The youngsters seem to have ALL the knowledge. :lol:

User avatar
MOOSE
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: Fruitport, MI

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by MOOSE » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:56 am

As I was a part of the GSPCA petitioning for black to be allowed in the AKC standard I will share some information with you all that was shared with the membership and such as well. All I have ever asked is that people be educated on the matter and make their decisions based on facts and not just emotion. Which can be hard to do.

-The standard in Germany in 1902 did not have a disqualification section in it. The first time black is mentioned in the German Standard is in 1933 and it is an acceptable color. “By 1933 it was the qualities of Angus v. Schwarzatal (Pr.K. #102) that persuaded the German Club members to allow the blacks into the studbook on equal footing with the brown dogs.” The German Shorthaired Pointer was originally recognized by AKC in 1930; but there is no record with AKC or the GSPCA of a written standard being in place yet at that time. The first known written standard for the GSP was in 1935. Even the 1935 standard did not have a disqualification section in it nor did the 1946 standard. The first mention of black being a disqualification in the AKC GSP Standard was the 1976 standard per the 1975 GSPCA yearbook, p.233. (The GSPCA nor AKC can provide any proof of a standard when the breed was first being introduced to AKC back in 1930. Unless someone on here was part of all that back in 1930 and can provide our standard at that time. I would love to see it :) )

Remember also that if you import a dog from Germany it can be registered with AKC. So in AKC eyes the German dogs are no different than our American dogs. Also black can be show in every registry in North America except AKC (CKC, International, UKC) and many of the blacks are titled in conformation in other venues. Just food for thought.

No breeder IMO should ever charge more based on color. Heck I don't think they should charge more based on sex of the puppy either.

My blacks have been called Weims (not sure exactly how that fits), dalmatian (I sort of can see that one), Blue Tick Coon Hound (once again can see the logic there), one person even said cattle dog/lab (again I can see where MAYBE that could work). Just have to take it with a grain of salt, understand why, where and how black came into play and know why you like them or don't and stand behind your belief. The only thing I can't stand is being talked down to because I have a black GSP by other GSP people. We all have our preferences, we all have our likes/dislikes and in the end we need to treat each other with respect.

User avatar
fourseasons
Rank: Champion
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:52 pm
Location: Now in beautiful NZ

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by fourseasons » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:16 pm

I was told many years ago that the Germans did not allow registration of black-to-black GSP breedings (thus producing only black puppies) as the concern was that the liver color would eventually be eliminated through continued black-to-black breedings.

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2465
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:23 pm

ACooper,
I believe that is testament to the ruination of the Lab as a breed that people can't tell anything from structure AT ALL and thus only look to color. BUT then some people seem so hung up on color anyway :roll: as the news media is happily brandishing much lately.

A mentor of mine used to say, "Be proud of WHO you are and not What you are."

User avatar
rschmeider
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:07 am
Location: PA..sticks

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by rschmeider » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:59 pm

The best thing I ever did is breed the black in to my lines. They black GSP has a better coat. Take one swimming with a liver and she what dog's coat take in water first.
The blacks bead and water runs off for the first dive or two. Both are eating the same food.

My Liver Shorthairs that don't have black in the pedigree shed more too. I'll use a horse brush and pull off a handful hair and the blacks might have table spoon.

Why the hate ? :roll: Dog that hardly sheds around the house. I'll sweep my hard floors and in the pan its looks like I don't even own blacks.

User avatar
nitrex
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 663
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:57 pm
Location: McPherson, KS

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by nitrex » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:21 pm

Red wrote:
I would have no desire to own one till the color is included in the Standard for the breed.
But it is, in Germeny where the breed started.

...but we don't live & hunt in Germany! :D

Nitrex

User avatar
PrairieGoat
Rank: Champion
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:03 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by PrairieGoat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:38 pm

abradley0408 wrote:When I tell them he is a GSP its almost always followed up with a, Not pure bred or I hope you have papers for that dog.
Lack of education on their part. I've run into a few knuckleheads like that and I generally approach it like an opportunity to educate the uninformed about the breed.

Randy

User avatar
markj
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Crescent Iowa

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by markj » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:29 am

No breeder IMO should ever charge more based on color. Heck I don't think they should charge more based on sex of the puppy either
I agree 100%.

Wife and son will be in Muskeogon next week, wish I could come along but work is in the way again. Her Grandpa owned a blueberry farm outside of fruitport :) she has kin in the area and will be going to the Coast Guard fest.

I have had folks ask if my black was a lab cross, he is huge too, very big boy. His coat also stays and he doesnt shed as much, hence the kiddie pool :) without it he might over heat in the higher temps.

He also was a fighter when younger, tore up a couple dogs real bad. Like opened the hide 12 inches or so, not the usual dog bite but on varmints he is deadly. He does make me smile tho, so I keep him around.

User avatar
Lucky Dog
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:27 am
Location: Midland, MI

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Lucky Dog » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:00 pm

No hate from me.

Image


Image

User avatar
ruffbritt4
Rank: Champion
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:21 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ruffbritt4 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:53 pm

Lucky Dog wrote:No hate from me.

Image


Image
I like that dog!

User avatar
steamer
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:53 pm
Location: central indiana

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by steamer » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:05 am

hey lucky dog is that dog from silver dollar kennels?

User avatar
Lucky Dog
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:27 am
Location: Midland, MI

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Lucky Dog » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:20 pm

steamer wrote:hey lucky dog is that dog from silver dollar kennels?
No sir. A breeder out of Grand Rapids MI. He is going on 13 years old.

User avatar
tasi devil
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Location: under down under , 41'S,147'E

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by tasi devil » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:25 pm

who really cares when they do this !

Image

or this
Image

User avatar
tasi devil
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Location: under down under , 41'S,147'E

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by tasi devil » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:29 pm

and travel quietly 2up with a strange dog
Image

the only disadvantage i found is being black he was hard to see @ distance, my white dog is much easier to place

..........tasi

User avatar
tfbirddog2
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 842
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Colby,KS

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by tfbirddog2 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:53 pm

I have had black in my line from 7 years, and have two solid black females(mother&daughter)and WHite and Black female too, daughter to Solid black female. I love the black line they are beautiful!. I also had a solid liver female that has been mistake for a chocolate lab a million times, followed up with the question of how come I docked her tail even gotten it with me solid blacks too. I just find alot of ignorance to hunting dog breeds these days to many city slickers!

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:33 pm

tfbirddog2 wrote:I have had black in my line from 7 years, and have two solid black females(mother&daughter)and WHite and Black female too, daughter to Solid black female. I love the black line they are beautiful!. I also had a solid liver female that has been mistake for a chocolate lab a million times, followed up with the question of how come I docked her tail even gotten it with me solid blacks too. I just find alot of ignorance to hunting dog breeds these days to many city slickers!
Don't think it is ignorance but rather confusion about the breeds that have been changed drastically and people not involved are naturally not up to date with the modern concept that anything goes.

They will catch up if the changes in the breeds stops or at least slows way down.

Ezzy

kensfishing
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by kensfishing » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:04 am

Black has been around for ever in the GSP. I owned them back in the early eightys when you had to hand write the black on the papers with akc. People who don't own shorthairs or never been around them or is new to the breed need to be educated in the breeds.

User avatar
hi-tailyn
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by hi-tailyn » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:55 pm

I asked one of the more knowledgeable GSPCA members today about the vote we had a while back on accepting Black as a ok color for gsp's.

They said from the people that voted the color black overwhelmingly passed. :D But, there was not enough participation in the vote to make large enough % to pass the vote. :roll:

Sorry that not enough people thought this was not important enough to vote on, or had a opinion on.

User avatar
yogi
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:58 pm
Location: Pa.

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by yogi » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:52 pm

My black GSP has papers
Attachments
photo.JPG
photo.JPG (704.61 KiB) Viewed 8815 times

User avatar
AHGSP
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, WV

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by AHGSP » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:06 pm

SD Pheasant Slayer wrote:I get a lot of the same comments with my solid black male. I politely tell people the black is relatively rare, but that he's all shorthair. Most people show surprise and comment with something polite. Others insist on telling me how I've been fleeced by my breeder. I chalk it up as ignorance and go on about my business. Their opinion doesn't matter much - I couldn't be happier with him. That being said, I do get the occasional request to stud him out for people that know nothing about him except that he's solid black, and that irritates me to no end.
I will happily refund your purchase price and pick up my dog when I'm out there in October....... :P :wink: :mrgreen:

User avatar
Canadian
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:20 am

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Canadian » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:35 pm

Red wrote:How can anyone not like this Black dog? :D

Not mine

Image

Image
That is a great looking dog. I love his coloring.

mowermandan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:04 pm
Location: La Grande Or

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by mowermandan » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:31 pm

I am just the opposite I like almost all white and I don't believe anyone should judge by color performance is what is important regardless of color ive seen b&w that were great dogs and ive had apure liver that was dumb as arock color is just a personal preferenceother than some kind of inbreeding or genetic transformation to achieve a certain color if its within standards and a great dog enjoy it

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:53 am

mowermandan wrote:I am just the opposite I like almost all white and I don't believe anyone should judge by color performance is what is important regardless of color ive seen b&w that were great dogs and ive had apure liver that was dumb as arock color is just a personal preferenceother than some kind of inbreeding or genetic transformation to achieve a certain color if its within standards and a great dog enjoy it

IMO the problem with color be it solid liver or black or whatever, is when it becomes the first selection criteria or the most important. There are some breeders out there producing excellent gsps and some happen to be solid black, then there are several others who are producing solid black gsps.

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:54 am

Canadian wrote:
Red wrote:How can anyone not like this Black dog? :D

Not mine

Image

Image
That is a great looking dog. I love his coloring.
He's a UT 1 dog as well, I hunted with him SD a couple years ago. Nice dog.

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by JKP » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:15 pm

IMO...in circles where dogs are selected on the basis of performance, no one color will dominate. In circles where dogs are bred on the basis of looks, pedigree or popularity, there can be a color fad.. Black is a dominant color gene. The only real danger might be that show/pet/puppy mill breeders might start popularizing a color. For this reason, its probably best that the AKC standard continues not to accept black. In performance circles, there is far less likelihood for a color to become more important than performance. Black dogs don't have a "lock" on performance.

I find spotting a black dog in any cover is just as easy as spotting a white dog.

Georgia Boy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 753
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:50 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by Georgia Boy » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:35 pm

Easier in the snow :D

User avatar
bobman
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:45 am
Location: Georgia

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by bobman » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:05 am

Anyone that would drown a pup because it was born a certain color should get the same treatment.

I have a Orange and white GSP ( LOL) I adopted the pup on here ( some here might remember the controversy) .

Birdy as heck... points like a rock.... and shes one of the nicest dogs I've ever owned and I've owned a lot more GSPs in the last 45 years than most people.

jimmyb1998
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Why hate on the Black GSP?

Post by jimmyb1998 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:05 am

New to the site and here is a picture of our girl. Folly Belle Carolina. She was 1 year old on May 26th 2015. She will be heading to Dave Walker's Farm and Kennel in Gray Ga in the next couple of weeks for some formal training. We are very excited.
Attachments
fb.jpg
fb.jpg (616.88 KiB) Viewed 6384 times

Post Reply