Trainer and not a hunter?

[Double Shot Banks]

In my mind knowing what you will actually will do with the dog is going to help the trainer know what to train.

You don't train a dog how to hunt, only the manners you require of it while it is hunting. You allow a dog to hunt and thereby it gains experience.

but you wouldnt (or shouldnt) take a dog hunting that isnt trained

[ezzy333]

In my mind knowing what you will actually will do with the dog is going to help the trainer know what to train.

You don't train a dog how to hunt, only the manners you require of it while it is hunting. You allow a dog to hunt and thereby it gains experience.

I think this is the one main point new sporting dog owners do no understand and we don't add much to their knowledge when they read most of the posts in our hunting and training forum.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Yup and they all just end up hunting a nice forward pattern at the perfect range.

[Elkhunter]

In my mind knowing what you will actually will do with the dog is going to help the trainer know what to train.

You don't train a dog how to hunt, only the manners you require of it while it is hunting. You allow a dog to hunt and thereby it gains experience.

but you wouldnt (or shouldnt) take a dog hunting that isnt trained

Isnt that what all young first year dogs do? I know I train my dog here, and thats about it until after its first season.

[Winchey]

He has a lab, I don't know that I would want to sit in a blind with a dog that couldn't.

Pointing dogs I think should be hunted from day 1.

[slistoe]

Yup and they all just end up hunting a nice forward pattern at the perfect range.

If they are bred right.

[displaced_texan]

Sticking to the subject...think of this situation. You have a racecar, and you take it to a normal shop for maintinence. Sure they know how to chainge oil and stuff but they have never raced a car and dont know exactly what specifications it needs to be so it can preform.
Not the best analogy but i would feel better if my trainer was a hunter. Because i wouldnt send him to a show dog trainer even if he was only getting taught sit, here, heel, and etc.
Great thoughts so far
Isaac and Banks

Sit, here, heel, box, etc are the changing the oil of dog training, why do you need someone that builds top fuel engines to do it?

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Sticking to the subject...think of this situation. You have a racecar, and you take it to a normal shop for maintinence. Sure they know how to chainge oil and stuff but they have never raced a car and dont know exactly what specifications it needs to be so it can preform.
Not the best analogy but i would feel better if my trainer was a hunter. Because i wouldnt send him to a show dog trainer even if he was only getting taught sit, here, heel, and etc.
Great thoughts so far
Isaac and Banks

Sit, here, heel, box, etc are the changing the oil of dog training, why do you need someone that builds top fuel engines to do it?

One of those formula 1 cars would really suck as a hunting rig. I'll take my old 4x4 Chevy with posi-traction over one of those any day.

Consistency, repetition and a well laid plan are what you need to train obedience. Only exposure to birds will teach the dog to hunt. The two are very separate things, and they should be until the dog understands and fully complies to commands in the yard.

Nate

[displaced_texan]

And it takes no hunting experience to train a dog commands.

[Double Shot Banks]

And it takes no hunting experience to train a dog commands.

But the trainers know what commands and how to train because of what hunters use the dogs as. if you were a hunter or have hunted you would know what you need the dog to do already,
I just think if you had hunting experience you would be quicker to train a dog succesfully because you already know what the dog will be used for,

[Elkhunter]

And it takes no hunting experience to train a dog commands.

But the trainers know what commands and how to train because of what hunters use the dogs as. if you were a hunter or have hunted you would know what you need the dog to do already,
I just think if you had hunting experience you would be quicker to train a dog succesfully because you already know what the dog will be used for,

Banks a "trainer" cannot teach a dog to find wild birds. Wild birds teach the dog to find wild birds, if you feel that is the trainers responsibility then find a trainer that agrees with you. But I am not gonna pay a trainer $500-$600 a month to take my dog hunting! I can do that, I want the trainer to teach my dog manners around birds. Thats it. Which is what most people who send a dog to a trainer want.

[millerms06]

You do not train a dog to hunt, you allow it to. Training is teaching the dog how we wish it to behave in various contexts.

Probably one of the best statements thus far. If there is good genetics behind the dog, there is very little that needs to be done with that dog.

I just think if you had hunting experience you would be quicker to train a dog succesfully because you already know what the dog will be used for,

A good trainer, is analytical and patient with every dog. Likewise, the trainer uses the same attributes, along with being honest, towards their clients whether or not the dog fits a standard that is expected. It is very possible to be the best hunter and still suck at training dogs. I know of one gentleman who fits this to a tee. He hunts and gets hundreds of ducks, guides and does a good job at it. But it would be a cold day in my mother in law's closet before I ask him advice or believe anything that comes out of his mouth on training a dog.

It is possible to be a successful trainer and not hunt. The question really comes down to how effective the trainer can get standards out of a dog or not.

[displaced_texan]

And it takes no hunting experience to train a dog commands.

But the trainers know what commands and how to train because of what hunters use the dogs as. if you were a hunter or have hunted you would know what you need the dog to do already,
I just think if you had hunting experience you would be quicker to train a dog succesfully because you already know what the dog will be used for,

And you said you wouldn't let a show dog trainer teach your dog basic commands. Sit, here, heel, box can be taught by anyone. My wife is not a hunter, but knows how to train basic commands as well as anyone.

[displaced_texan]

And it takes no hunting experience to train a dog commands.

But the trainers know what commands and how to train because of what hunters use the dogs as. if you were a hunter or have hunted you would know what you need the dog to do already,
I just think if you had hunting experience you would be quicker to train a dog succesfully because you already know what the dog will be used for,

And you said you wouldn't let a show dog trainer teach your dog basic commands. Sit, here, heel, box can be taught by anyone. My wife is not a hunter, but knows how to train basic commands as well as anyone.

Also, manners on birds are manners on birds. If anything I'd expect better manners from a trialer than a hunter.

[S&J gsp]

Banks a "trainer" cannot teach a dog to find wild birds. Wild birds teach the dog to find wild birds, if you feel that is the trainers responsibility then find a trainer that agrees with you. But I am not gonna pay a trainer $500-$600 a month to take my dog hunting! I can do that, I want the trainer to teach my dog manners around birds. Thats it. Which is what most people who send a dog to a trainer want.[/quote]

I think they are a lot misconceptions on what a trainer does look at a trainer as a middle school teacher they give the dog an education and the owner does the experience part if I'm sending a dog to a trainer I think the dog should come back whoa broke here broke and standing birds. If I were sending a lab to a trainer I would expect him to come home doing simple marks and simple blinds and obedience should be solid, and there will be a learning curve when the dog gets home he has worked for the trainer for 3-4 months so now you have to get him to work the same for you. If a trainer don't hunt it is most likely because he simply don't have time most trainers I know shoot birds over 200 days a year, and most have a family so they need family time too.

[Double Shot Banks]

I guess i'm not sure why we are all arguing, even though its clear im wrong, i will probably never send a dog off to a trainer.
I was simply looking for opinions to see what you all though; considering i know people with very strong feelings both ways.
Thanks for helping me understand, x10
Isaac and Banks

[displaced_texan]

This is a mild debate, not an argument

[Kmack]

I know a couple of women, one a sister and one a neighbor, who used to breed and train border collies and Australian shepherds and compete on a national level. I guarantee you that if I were to show them what I wanted a gun dog to do when they were finished, they could do just as well as the best trainers out there. Neither has ever hunted a day in their life. That would include teaching a dog to work to the front.

As a matter of fact, I think they could put a better handle on a dog than 95% of the people out there.

[Double Shot Banks]

So because everyone seems to be "disagreeing" with me, like i said i never will use a trainer, so i really didnt want much to do with this. I just wanted to see other peoples opinions,doesnt bother me if you have a strong opinion one way or the other, just trying to start convorsation

[Neil]

So because everyone seems to be "disagreeing" with me, like i said i never will use a trainer, so i really didnt want much to do with this. I just wanted to see other peoples opinions,doesnt bother me if you have a strong opinion one way or the other, just trying to start convorsation

This whole thread is like saying I would never go to a drug counselor that was not an an addict, but I would never get treatment anyway, just wanted to get opinions.

Neil

[Double Shot Banks]

This whole thread is like saying I would never go to a drug counselor that was not an an addict, but I would never get treatment anyway, just wanted to get opinions.

Neil

If we keep using your analogy, why would i spend money to get treated when i can treat myself (obviously less possible with drugs than dog training). But wouldn't it be hard to give someone advice about stopping a hard drug addiction if they have never experienced it? Sure anyone can say just stop but that's like telling me how to fly a plane and you yourself have never flown one.
In fact all the people i have encountered that talk about drug addiction or alcoholism were addicts before.
Isaac and Banks

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Hunting and trialling are separate. You do not need to be a successful hunter to be a successful trialer.

I believe the question was "trainer" not trailer. Their are many of us who started as avid hunters and just wanted "meat dogs". I enjoy hunting to watch a good dog work. I could care less if I shoot a bird. A good trainer does not have to hunt to train a good bird dog. Two different skill sets as is a "trailer" vs a "trainer". I know of many National Champion dogs that were trained by a different person than the Handler. Like a horse trainer vs a Jocky.

[clink83]

This whole thread is like saying I would never go to a drug counselor that was not an an addict, but I would never get treatment anyway, just wanted to get opinions.

Neil

If we keep using your analogy, why would i spend money to get treated when i can treat myself (obviously less possible with drugs than dog training). But wouldn't it be hard to give someone advice about stopping a hard drug addiction if they have never experienced it? Sure anyone can say just stop but that's like telling me how to fly a plane and you yourself have never flown one.
In fact all the people i have encountered that talk about drug addiction or alcoholism were addicts before.
Isaac and Banks

What does shooting birds for fun have to do with training dogs? Hunting birds has absolutely nothing to do with training dogs.
By your logic, you should have been able to train your dog to hunt without making him gunshy because you're a hunter. How did that work out? (I don't say that to be mean, just to point out that hunter=/= dog trainer) In much the same way, a good football coach doesn't have to be a good football player. They are different skill sets.

[Double Shot Banks]

What does shooting birds for fun have to do with training dogs? Hunting birds has absolutely nothing to do with training dogs.
By your logic, you should have been able to train your dog to hunt without making him gunshy because you're a hunter. How did that work out? (I don't say that to be mean, just to point out that hunter=/= dog trainer) In much the same way, a good football coach doesn't have to be a good football player. They are different skill sets.

Im happy to inform that (if you have been following my posts) banks is 100% gun conditioned. Just to day we finished work with a 12 guage. :roll:
And again i have to stick with my opinion, as a football player myself i sure would not want a coach that has never played the game...Maybe to call plays and stratagies like a head coach but not to teach the skills and basics.
Isaac and Banks

[AZ Brittany Guy]

What does shooting birds for fun have to do with training dogs? Hunting birds has absolutely nothing to do with training dogs.
By your logic, you should have been able to train your dog to hunt without making him gunshy because you're a hunter. How did that work out? (I don't say that to be mean, just to point out that hunter=/= dog trainer) In much the same way, a good football coach doesn't have to be a good football player. They are different skill sets.

Im happy to inform that (if you have been following my posts) banks is 100% gun conditioned. Just to day we finished work with a 12 guage. :roll:
And again i have to stick with my opinion, as a football player myself i sure would not want a coach that has never played the game...Maybe to call plays and stratagies like a head coach but not to teach the skills and basics.
Isaac and Banks

Would you consider Bill Bellacek (sp) or Mike Shannahn?

[Neil]

So far, the only thing the OP has been right about was when he said he was wrong.

Former drug addicts make poor treatment specialist. The top coaches are to rarely former stars, and there is no need for a trainer to be a hunter.

Neil

[Double Shot Banks]

Your right, i apologize for being wrong and for wasting your time.
Isaac

[onuhunter02]

I have kept off this one for a bit I understand what DSB is saying, I surround myself with people who hunt. But I am a new upland bird dog (pointing dog GSP) guy and in all honesty I take in all information I am given (some is good and some is terrible) then run with it, I have tried to take that information and use it to my advantage. There is plenty of information from non hunters that has helped me out. DSB please understand though I am a duck hunter as well and have a lab who is a retrieving machine, but when I got my pointing dog I realized it is a different world even though it is similar. I will say this no matter the dog if it is not conditioned properly to the environment it would have a difficult time adapting to a cold river with current. By that I mean unless a trial dog practices it then I would have a hard time believing it would jump into a cold river to do a retrieve then do it over and over again.

[shags]

Your right, i apologize for being wrong and for wasting your time.
Isaac

Apparently you do not understand that there are trainers who work more dogs in a year than a typical hunter would work in a lifetime. With that experience comes a proportionate depth of knowledge.

It's good that you're thinking and coming up with your own theory (which remains only a theory). Remember you are just part way through training your first gundog, while some of the people on here offering you advice have been around that block many times.

Keep an open mind. That's what good trainers do.

[roaniecowpony]

I think the original question is mainly academic. Very few dogs that go to a trainer will be taken hunting on wild birds. Most dogs will go to a trainer for a short time to teach a specific task or deal with a problem the owner can't fix. Few people are willing or able to spend the money to have their dog go thru a full training curriculum. Of dogs that get a full training curriculum, fewer yet will get wild bird hunted by the trainer because this is yet another high cost activity for the trainer to pass along to the customers.

[roaniecowpony]

Sticking to the subject...think of this situation. You have a racecar, and you take it to a normal shop for maintinence. Sure they know how to chainge oil and stuff but they have never raced a car and dont know exactly what specifications it needs to be so it can preform.
Not the best analogy but i would feel better if my trainer was a hunter. Because i wouldnt send him to a show dog trainer even if he was only getting taught sit, here, heel, and etc.
Great thoughts so far
Isaac and Banks

Sit, here, heel, box, etc are the changing the oil of dog training, why do you need someone that builds top fuel engines to do it?

Even when Keith Black was building engines for the most successful Top Fuel race teams, he wasn't racing.

Hunting experience on wild birds is important to a wild bird hunter. But, it is seldom something the average customer is willing to pay for. It's most often gained by the owner taking the dog hunting.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I think the original question is mainly academic. Very few dogs that go to a trainer will be taken hunting on wild birds. Most dogs will go to a trainer for a short time to teach a specific task or deal with a problem the owner can't fix. Few people are willing or able to spend the money to have their dog go thru a full training curriculum. Of dogs that get a full training curriculum, fewer yet will get wild bird hunted by the trainer because this is yet another high cost activity for the trainer to pass along to the customers.

Not to read into the comment, but I think the poster thinks a seasoned hunter who trains dogs has more "insight" in what the dog needs. Old field trailers believe the most important person at a field trial is a bird planter who is a bird hunter as they know the correct places to plant the birds.

I don't think a good trainer has to be a good hunter but most good trainers have hunted at one point in their life. A good trainer needs to know how to communicate with dogs and allow the natural instincts to develop in the dog.

[roaniecowpony]

Guy
I'd agree with that. I would even venture a guess that it'd be fairly rare to find a pro trainer of bird dogs that had not hunted. But that would not be a reason I'd automatically rule out a trainer.

[polmaise]

I think the original question is mainly academic. Very few dogs that go to a trainer will be taken hunting on wild birds. Most dogs will go to a trainer for a short time to teach a specific task or deal with a problem the owner can't fix. Few people are willing or able to spend the money to have their dog go thru a full training curriculum. Of dogs that get a full training curriculum, fewer yet will get wild bird hunted by the trainer because this is yet another high cost activity for the trainer to pass along to the customers.

I think this statement is - ''academic''!..having stated 'Very few dogs that go to a trainer will be taken hunting on wild birds'',then go on to say "Most dogs will go to a trainer for a short time to teach a specific task or deal with a problem the owner can't fix
Then further claim that "Fewer yet will get wild bird hunted by the trainer because this is yet another high cost activity for the trainer to pass along to the customers.
Now?...How do you quantify that?...have you had personal experience of this?....Have you been personally involved with this situation?...Where and how have you concluded this data from, to form the opinion?...and more importantly what facts!..can you say would substantiate?