GSPs with EP bloodlines?

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:03 pm

bobman wrote: have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father
I'm glad she got a good home

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:20 pm

bobman wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug
I have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common
He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father

I am having fun with her she thinks shes 10 feet tall lol
I'm glad she's getting to do what she was made for, color aside. Ace is one of the lines I alluded to as needing dilute color testing.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Grange » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:45 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Too much EP and you might end up with a stubby tailed dog that won't retrieve and hates water. :D
No problem. Just throw in some pointing lab blood.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:27 pm

bobman wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug
I have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common
He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father

I am having fun with her she thinks shes 10 feet tall lol
Did you see those results?

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by bobman » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:54 am

No it was a phone conversation but here was no reason to not be honest I didn't pay for the pup and didnt care if she was part beagle LOL

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:59 pm

Grange wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Too much EP and you might end up with a stubby tailed dog that won't retrieve and hates water. :D
No problem. Just throw in some pointing lab blood.
yea pointers hate water :lol:
Image

Image

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Winchey » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:23 pm

The first dog looks like it was thrown in, and I am pretty sure the second figured he could jump the pond lol.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:29 pm

No doubt it's been done a lot, and recently. It was done to win trials.....
There are always scumbags that will do anything to win.....sort of piss on your leg and tell you its raining when they present the papers and say they have a GSP. Like Mark Maguire...or Rodriguez or the rest of the upright "junkies" in sport....

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:06 pm

Winchey wrote:The first dog looks like it was thrown in, and I am pretty sure the second figured he could jump the pond lol.

LOL

They don't retrieve either

12wks old
Image

Won't retieve ducks either
Image

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:25 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
bobman wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug
I have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common
He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father

I am having fun with her she thinks shes 10 feet tall lol
Did you see those results?
I haft to share that two of Hanshaws older dogs with same pedigrees were at a (not very reputable) trainer and accidentally got bred and he got 9 lemon and white pups out of the cross. :roll: :roll:

There defiantly is a problem with some of these lines of dogs. I keep hearing that you know it is in there and you just haft to expect it to show up every once and a while. :twisted: NO I don't. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I don't ever expect to have a lemon and white pup out of one of my dogs. :mrgreen:

I have just gotten 1/4 of some of this blood in my young dog. If I would ever get a lemon and white pup, I would be letting everyone know that there is something wrong with these dogs. There is too much of the Its ok behind the scenes good old boy club. How many drowned pup really are born from some of these crosses? :cry: :cry:

This is our breed and those that quietly let this go are doing no benefit to the breed. I know nobody wants to call out one of their friends, but they need to know it will get out to the rest of our small world.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:41 pm

The responsible thing to do is to get the coat color test that Casey is talking about and breed responsibly.

There ain't nothin wrong with em except the color.

NO NEED TO BASH THE WHOLE LINE SCOTT!

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:34 pm

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:The responsible thing to do is to get the coat color test that Casey is talking about and breed responsibly.

There ain't nothin wrong with em except the color.

NO NEED TO BASH THE WHOLE LINE SCOTT!

Doug
There ain't nothin wrong with em except the color.
That is a big problem!! :!: :!: We are so hard headed on not letting black be a acceptable color for GSP's yet some don't think the production of yellow and white GSP's is not a problem. Just give them away and go on to the next breeding. If you know you have a color problem, do the right thing and don't breed.

It doesn't matter if they have National Champions in their title pedigree. Don't breed them.

It doesn't matter if they are a National Champion. That doesn't mean it is ok to pass on lemon and white.

If you are mad about your dog throwing lemon and white pups, get mad at the kennel that sold you the mix breed GSP with the "ee". That is what you are doing by selling any pups out of these dogs to your potential buyers. :D
NO NEED TO BASH THE WHOLE LINE SCOTT!

I'm not bashing any line. I'm BASHING irresponsible breeders and their dogs. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

If there is a problem with their dogs, the breeder doesn't need to spread their problems on to other non suspecting folks. :(

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:22 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:NO NEED TO BASH THE WHOLE LINE SCOTT!

Doug

Come on Doug, he wasn't bashing.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:28 pm

Thing is, people didn't know they'd have a problem until they started tightly linebreeding and getting yellow dogs.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:34 pm

I have coat colored two of my dogs because it was the right thing to do. One is Trey (NFC), who's grandfather is ACE (the sire of the litter of Hanshaws that produced yellow and white pups. The second is the direct daughter of ACE. Yes, they have both been DNA'd. Neither have the gene that causes the yellow color. They do not have the e gene, thank goodness. I do not know or profess to know how the yellow came about. Could it have been tightly bred dogs or as some to suggest come from introducing pointers into the bloodline sometime back. It is for all you pundits out there to figure it out. I personally will not make accusations. Unless a person is witness to the breeding of EP to GSP or has direct knowledge they should not be second guessing. Just my two cents worth.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:48 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:I have coat colored two of my dogs because it was the right thing to do. One is Trey (NFC), who's grandfather is ACE (the sire of the litter of Hanshaws that produced yellow and white pups. The second is the direct daughter of ACE. Yes, they have both been DNA'd. Neither have the gene that causes the yellow color. They do not have the e gene, thank goodness. I do not know or profess to know how the yellow came about. Could it have been tightly bred dogs or as some to suggest come from introducing pointers into the bloodline sometime back. It is for all you pundits out there to figure it out. I personally will not make accusations. Unless a person is witness to the breeding of EP to GSP or has direct knowledge they should not be second guessing. Just my two cents worth.
As long as any animal bred to those two of yours is DNA tested for color and parentage, then it ends and the line going forward from your dogs is clear of surprises. Simple enough.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:02 pm

What she said boys. Oh yea Andy. He's bashing the whole line.

Come down off your high horse Scott.

Doug

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:07 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote: Could it have been tightly bred dogs or as some to suggest come from introducing pointers into the bloodline sometime back.
Personally I don't think It came from breeding to tight. Many other lines have bred as tight with no color issue. You can outcross breed two carriers and have a color issue.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:38 pm

You guys got it all wrong.... it is Rusty, clown, and Tonellis lines that have pointer bred into them, Ace was a setter :lol: :lol: :lol:

If any of these four show up in the pedigree of your dogs at all they must be spayed or neutered immediately :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:41 pm

Gee you just wiped out my WHOLE KENNEL!! :lol:

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:What she said boys. Oh yea Andy. He's bashing the whole line.

Come down off your high horse Scott.

Doug
Come down off your high horse Scott.
Higher is way better for the breed and everyone involved.

Those trying to get a quick fix and try and get ahead are not what the GSP breed needs.

If they have a problem with that, then maybe they really should look in to getting into pointers.

Nothing against pointers, just they shouldn't be apart of the GSP's or any of the other breeds.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:54 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:What she said boys. Oh yea Andy. He's bashing the whole line.

Come down off your high horse Scott.

Doug
Come down off your high horse Scott.
Higher is way better for the breed and everyone involved.

Those trying to get a quick fix and try and get ahead are not what the GSP breed needs.

If they have a problem with that, then maybe they really should look in to getting into pointers.

Nothing against pointers, just they shouldn't be apart of the GSP's or any of the other breeds.
I agree, but it's more than likely been 30+ years since it allegedly was done. How many dogs have Clown, Tonellis, Rusty, or Slick in them? You need to be on one side or the other! Either every dog that decends from these lines should be removed from the breeding pool or we continue on, 30 years later, and police it the best we can with DNA.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:09 pm

If you took out just those 4 lines not counting a few other lines not mentioned you sure would shrink the GENE POOL in this country :!: :!:

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:24 pm

Middlecreek wrote:You guys got it all wrong.... it is Rusty, clown, and Tonellis lines that have pointer bred into them, Ace was a setter :lol: :lol: :lol:

If any of these four show up in the pedigree of your dogs at all they must be spayed or neutered immediately :roll: :roll: :roll:

"bleep"..... that makes my GSPxEP just a little less GSP. :D :D

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:32 pm

Don't want to hi-jack the thread but, I have a question???

So, if "x" dog 30 years ago was half pointer and the products of that dog today are "P" and "N". If "P" tests positive for e and "N" tests negative for e...

Is it o.k. for "N" the one that tested negative to remain in the breeding pool?
Is it o.k. for "N" (tested negative) if she is all white with just enough liver to cover most of her ears and catch her eyes with the pointer dot on top of her head to remain?
Is it o.k. for "P" to be bred to non carriers?
Is it o.k. for...... on and on and on......

Maybe we're just improving the breed (I don't mean by crossbreeding to pointers!) and those crying foul just want something to use as an excuse for not keeping up.... see this post: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=39735

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:54 pm

The number one producer of GSP field champions.... :lol:


Image

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:55 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you took out just those 4 lines not counting a few other lines not mentioned you sure would shrink the GENE POOL in this country :!: :!:
The gene pool is already very divided.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:59 pm

birddog1968 wrote: Image

Haven't seen anything thrown that far since they banned dwarf tossing in bars in the mid 80's

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:16 pm

ACooper wrote:The number one producer of GSP field champions.... :lol:


Image
:cry:

WHAT!!! I said Ace was a setter on the www, so it is now FACT.... So this must also mean Joe Shadow was a setter right? The www is so confusing for me =-(

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:24 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
ACooper wrote:The number one producer of GSP field champions.... :lol:


Image
:cry:

WHAT!!! I said Ace was a setter on the www, so it is now FACT.... So this must also mean Joe Shadow was a setter right? The www is so confusing for me =-(
I'm just waiting for some Blackhawk style GSPs, tri-color and a little too much hair...

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:45 pm

ACooper wrote:The number one producer of GSP field champions.... :lol:


Image
Not hardly. He had a solid liver head and a clean body.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:36 pm

nikegundog wrote:
birddog1968 wrote: [/url]

Haven't seen anything thrown that far since they banned dwarf tossing in bars in the mid 80's

Bring any lab in your neighborhood and he'll show you what retrieve desire is land water briars woods, you name it :mrgreen:

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by S&J gsp » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:18 am

Guys and Gals why are we having this debate we all agree that it has happened more than 10 years ago so that would mean that most would be almost gone by now. 10 years is at least 3 generations on the pedigree which would mean it is less than 1/8 by now if not 1/32-1/64. Yes you will still see throw backs every once in a while and they should be treated as such. Now going forward if AKC or FDSB does not require a female to be DNA tested it won't change much I think that if you raise a litter both parents and grand parents need DNA to stop any kind of conflict. With that said I hope everyone has a great day.


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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:59 am

10 years ago means some of those dogs are still in your kennels and have just ended their reproductive years. Some might be 3 or 4 generations back but some may just be one. Why do you think it all ended 10 years ago?

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GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:18 am

Yeah I agree it's been almost bred out... I rarely see any of these "throwbacks".... Haha

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:29 am

Back when they did it, the people were doing it to win. Now we have people like Hanshaw doing it for money.

Do you think he tells puppy buyers that his bitch is Ee? He just keeps right on breeding her.

Is he testing those puppies and neutering/spaying the carriers?

Doug

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:00 am

nikegundog wrote:
birddog1968 wrote: Image

Haven't seen anything thrown that far since they banned dwarf tossing in bars in the mid 80's
Must be some GSP in that there dog. :lol: :lol: :lol:

My gsp's can't get that much air. You have what looks like a fun dog.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by roaniecowpony » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:23 am

Image
ACooper wrote:The number one producer of GSP field champions.... :lol:


Image

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by S&J gsp » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:41 am

I said 10 years ago because that is when AKC put there DNA policy in effect. There are a few that admit to doing it but as far as I know the people I talked to are only hunters and wanted more run. As far as doing it to win if someone wanted to you still could. I called AKC about a DNA kit for a female and was asked by there rep why because they don't require DNA on females only males the sire more than 4 litters in a lifetime or two litters in one year. So I could cull paper a female and breed like no tommrow and sell them as GSPs and no one would know any different till they get an off colored pup. As long as DNA on the sire was right now that is why sire and dam and there sire and dam should be DNA tested. The only reason i've commented on this post is because I like the GSP

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:54 am

bobman wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug
I have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common
He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father

I am having fun with her she thinks shes 10 feet tall lol
Hankshaw made a big stink a few months ago and blaming the sire of his litter for the yellow pups. Now he won't post the DNA results. Another member says he knows of an instance where two of Hankshaws dogs were accidently bred by pointers. Why won't the guy show the DNA results?

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:00 am

Middlecreek wrote:You guys got it all wrong.... it is Rusty, clown, and Tonellis lines that have pointer bred into them, Ace was a setter :lol: :lol: :lol:

If any of these four show up in the pedigree of your dogs at all they must be spayed or neutered immediately :roll: :roll: :roll:
Exactly!

That would leave us with what?? DK's and line bred Hustler dogs??

If there is a test that can determine that the dog carries a gene that will throw the yellow color lets use it to cull the breeding stock and move on, just like we're doing with LD!!

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:12 am

Doesn't it all come back to Responsible Breeders?

If you have displactic hips, you wouldn't breed that dog would you?

Same for some physical, some cosmetic defects. like overbite, "ee" etc....

If you have a known fault, or know your dog throws it, best to not breed that dog.

There are some dogs that with these traits, that it still is not best for the breed to remove them from the breeding pool. There needs to be responsible breeding with these faults in mind as to who they can be bred to.

There are judgement calls where faults not dangerous to the pups or new owners. They could test all that want to breed to to make sure it doesn't show its ugly head. Then let all those who buy a pup out of your dog know they they need to be tested before they breed.

I have had the owner of a very well know stud dog let me know that he had a perfect bite, but that he had thrown bad bites in the past. That is all you can ask of a responsible breeder/dog owner. You then have the info to make a choice if you are willing to gamble with the genetic make up of the pups/new owners.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by hi-tailyn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:17 am

Hankshaw made a big stink a few months ago and blaming the sire of his litter for the yellow pups. Now he won't post the DNA results. Another member says he knows of an instance where two of Hankshaws dogs were accidently bred by pointers. Why won't the guy show the DNA results?
This is what he told me.
They were not bred to a pointer, it was two of his gsp's that were bred and produced the lemon and white.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:19 am

+1
hi-tailyn wrote:Doesn't it all come back to Responsible Breeders?

If you have displactic hips, you wouldn't breed that dog would you?

Same for some physical, some cosmetic defects. like overbite, "ee" etc....

If you have a known fault, or know your dog throws it, best to not breed that dog.

There are some dogs that with these traits, that it still is not best for the breed to remove them from the breeding pool. There needs to be responsible breeding with these faults in mind as to who they can be bred to.

There are judgement calls where faults not dangerous to the pups or new owners. They could test all that want to breed to to make sure it doesn't show its ugly head. Then let all those who buy a pup out of your dog know they they need to be tested before they breed.

I have had the owner of a very well know stud dog let me know that he had a perfect bite, but that he had thrown bad bites in the past. That is all you can ask of a responsible breeder/dog owner. You then have the info to make a choice if you are willing to gamble with the genetic make up of the pups/new owners.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:55 am

Highway Ends Kennel wrote: Hankshaw made a big stink a few months ago and blaming the sire of his litter for the yellow pups. Now he won't post the DNA results. Another member says he knows of an instance where two of Hankshaws dogs were accidently bred by pointers. Why won't the guy show the DNA results?
It could never have been just the sire, assuming the sire was a "GSP".

If there is a test that can determine that the dog carries a gene that will throw the yellow color lets use it to cull the breeding stock and move on, just like we're doing with LD!!
There is a test, many folks would rather not know.

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Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:39 am

I think that a lot of people are unaware of the test and don't understand the subject.

I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know. A litter of off color puppies, and everything that comes with it sounds like a pain in the arse to me.


But yes, some know and don't care.

Doug

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Cajun Casey
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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:01 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I think that a lot of people are unaware of the test and don't understand the subject.

I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know. A litter of off color puppies, and everything that comes with it sounds like a pain in the arse to me.


But yes, some know and don't care.

Doug
The people who knew and cared in the past were the ones that took a bucket to the whelping box. Maxwell even mentions that practice in her book on the breed. When troubled bloodlines reached the uninformed, became widespread and out of control of those who knew the risks, when the internet made things immediate and public knowledge, that's when it became a problem and blame was laid on the whistleblowers, not on the source point. Look at dates, trial results, and locations. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Last edited by Cajun Casey on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ACooper
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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by ACooper » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:02 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I think that a lot of people are unaware of the test and don't understand the subject.
Doug
Great point I should have added that.

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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:13 am

birddog1968 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
birddog1968 wrote: [/url]

Haven't seen anything thrown that far since they banned dwarf tossing in bars in the mid 80's

Bring any lab in your neighborhood and he'll show you what retrieve desire is land water briars woods, you name it :mrgreen:
:D
Last edited by nikegundog on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Elkhunter
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Re: GSPs with EP bloodlines?

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:19 am

Test em and identify carriers and breed responsible.

No need to remove entire dogs from the gene pool because of hysteria and uneducated people.

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