GSPs with EP bloodlines?

[Cajun Casey]

What I wish would happen is for the GSPCA and AKC to provide a means for listing non-OFA clearances on the pedigree for open access. That would showcase the responsible breeders and open dialog for education about carrier dogs among people who truly want to preserve those animals in the breeding population. Yes, I can say this because my best performing dog has a suspected "ee" ancestor, as well as being from know LD producing lines. No, he's not tested. He came from my friend's hunting string. Yes, he would be tested before breeding him.

[Ms. Cage]

Test em and identify carriers and breed responsible.No need to remove entire dogs from the gene pool because of hysteria and uneducated people.

You might be reponsible but what about the next guy or the guy after that. Could you explain why !!!

[Elkhunter]

Test em and identify carriers and breed responsible.No need to remove entire dogs from the gene pool because of hysteria and uneducated people.

You might be reponsible but what about the next guy or the guy after that. Could you explain why !!!

I cannot be held responsible for those that buy pups from me, you can weed em out as best you can but once they leave your care you really dont have much control anymore. I bred to a carrier of LD this spring, just got done sending in all the tests etc today. I will know if a few weeks which ones are carriers and which ones are not. I have educated those that will be getting carriers in detail about the gene, and the responsibility and cost that comes with ever breeding a carrier. I made sure they are going into responsible peoples hands, but in the end they will make their own decisions.

I will be keeping a clean male, and if he proves himself will be able to continue to contribute what he brings to the table.

I tell you what, I see a lot more chitty dogs with clean genes being bred than I see EXCEPTIONAL dogs with recessive traits being bred. JMO

[Cajun Casey]

Test em and identify carriers and breed responsible.No need to remove entire dogs from the gene pool because of hysteria and uneducated people.

You might be reponsible but what about the next guy or the guy after that. Could you explain why !!!

I cannot be held responsible for those that buy pups from me, you can weed em out as best you can but once they leave your care you really dont have much control anymore. I bred to a carrier of LD this spring, just got done sending in all the tests etc today. I will know if a few weeks which ones are carriers and which ones are not. I have educated those that will be getting carriers in detail about the gene, and the responsibility and cost that comes with ever breeding a carrier. I made sure they are going into responsible peoples hands, but in the end they will make their own decisions.

I will be keeping a clean male, and if he proves himself will be able to continue to contribute what he brings to the table.

I tell you what, I see a lot more chitty dogs with clean genes being bred than I see EXCEPTIONAL dogs with recessive traits being bred. JMO

You have the control of making them Limited Registration so their offspring cannot be registered.

[GrayDawg]

What you all are missing is back in the past you are talking about those people that had a goal they were working towards, a new breed. They didn't crossbreed and sell the pups. They cross bred and destroyed the pups that didn't have the characteristics they were working towards. Most did not just involve a single cross breeding but consisted of using several breeds to get to where they were going. This was all done to develop a completely new breed. Today, what is being done is just someone trying to change the breed that already exists to their liking. And there is no place for that in a responsible hunter, trialer, trainer or just plain owner's agenda.

Ezzy

That's some mighty rarified air you are sniffing up there Ezzy. So you know exactly why people today are crossing to other breeds? You say people are doing this to "change" their breed of choice? I submit that any reputable breeder is striving to "improve" their breed, thus- their goal is to change from the current state to a better one.

Now defining what is "better" is where things get tricky. Just remember, none of our breeds would be around today if at some point back in history two dogs weren't put together that weren't of the same breed/type.

Rob

[Ms. Cage]

Elkhunter, Last I had heard you were handing out full registration on your pups. You stated on versatiledog.com as such. You said you could not hold people to not do as you did. Topic GSP info.

[ezzy333]

What you all are missing is back in the past you are talking about those people that had a goal they were working towards, a new breed. They didn't crossbreed and sell the pups. They cross bred and destroyed the pups that didn't have the characteristics they were working towards. Most did not just involve a single cross breeding but consisted of using several breeds to get to where they were going. This was all done to develop a completely new breed. Today, what is being done is just someone trying to change the breed that already exists to their liking. And there is no place for that in a responsible hunter, trialer, trainer or just plain owner's agenda.

Ezzy

That's some mighty rarified air you are sniffing up there Ezzy. So you know exactly why people today are crossing to other breeds? You say people are doing this to "change" their breed of choice? I submit that any reputable breeder is striving to "improve" their breed, thus- their goal is to change from the current state to a better one.

Now defining what is "better" is where things get tricky. Just remember, none of our breeds would be around today if at some point back in history two dogs weren't put together that weren't of the same breed/type.

Rob

Think you may be right about the rarified air as it seems so many just can't understand the difference in creating a new breed and cross breeding one breed with another for whatever reason. I think we all know it isn't right, legal, responsible, or possible to improve a breed by breeding outside of your preferred breed since all you have when you end up is a crossbred mutt. It may be a great mutt but it is no longer a purebred of any breed and can't be considered an improvement to any breed. And further more the greatest damage is that it won't breed true for generations to come and everyone that buys a puppy with the crossbred in it's pedigree is being cheated.

Rarified air or not, I still like to take responsibility for the dogs I breed, and it completely irresponsible to breed something that you or no one else can even predict what it will produce or how it will perform.

JMO bit one I have had for 70 years and it is still true,

Ezzy

[mask]

I'm kind of with ezzy on this one. What baffles me is some people don't believe pointers are being bred to gsps and the pups being registered as gsps. Like it or not it is still going on.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

They are all "crossbred" and 70 years is simply a blink in their eyes.

[Elkhunter]

Elkhunter, Last I had heard you were handing out full registration on your pups. You stated on versatiledog.com as such. You said you could not hold people to not do as you did. Topic GSP info.

Correct? And? If they are willing to put the time and effort to prove/test and show through tons of effort and hard work that their specific dog is worthy of breeding and an exceptional example of the breed then I am not going to tell them not to. Because in my mind that is a dog that should be bred, and the same evaluation should be done on that litter. Through that process you will continue to promote the good in that dog, while weeding out the bad. Now obviously the pups that are never tested or really proven should never be bred, regardless of recessive genes etc.

[ACooper]

Elkhunter, Last I had heard you were handing out full registration on your pups. You stated on versatiledog.com as such. You said you could not hold people to not do as you did. Topic GSP info.

Correct? And? If they are willing to put the time and effort to prove/test and show through tons of effort and hard work that their specific dog is worthy of breeding and an exceptional example of the breed then I am not going to tell them not to. Because in my mind that is a dog that should be bred, and the same evaluation should be done on that litter. Through that process you will continue to promote the good in that dog, while weeding out the bad. Now obviously the pups that are never tested or really proven should never be bred, regardless of recessive genes etc.

Just to be clear, Josh and I have discussed this before and don't really agree BUT he had his female tested and she is a none carrier so there will not be any affected pups but could be some carriers. He and the stud owner have already gone beyond what many "breeders" of affected lines have done which is make a cross and hope for the best or live in denial.

[hi-tailyn]

I'm kind of with ezzy on this one. What baffles me is some people don't believe pointers are being bred to GSPs and the pups being registered asGSPs. Like it or not it is still going on.

Hanshaw's Co Owner and "partner in slime" of several of his dogs is the person who bred the two GSP's and produced the lemon and white pups.

Being that L.... L. is involved, they could have intentionally bred the two, or bred his female to a pointer.

L.... did that with my female that I sold his son and him. FC/AFC Cheyanne was bred to a DNA'd AKC RU Nat. Ch liver and white Pointer and tried to sell pups as GSP's. How stupid is that?

Final outcome of the pups is they were not worth a bullet. Yet FC/AFC Cheyanne produced 5-6 FC/AFC's and one 3x RU NGDC. Just to show you just because both dogs are Nat. caliber, doesn't mean you should breed them. Pointer or not.

I did DNA on one of the pups and gave to AKC, along with DNA of the Pointer and Cheyanne. Even with DNA of all three of the dogs in question, AKC said they could not disprove the pup because they could not find the sire on paper of the pup.(Some how the sire died as soon as the pups were born.) Go Figure :roll: :roll: One of the things this team used to brag about that they did with the TWHs. :roll: AKC said the litter was a valid litter of GSP's. :roll: (More money in their pockets.)

I talked with head of AKC performance and said I know for sure that this pup is a half pointer,( which they declared and stood by their decision as pure gsp) and if it is ok, then I have a female gsp in season now and I intend to breed them together.

At that point AKC voided the litter and said they would decline the litter as pure gsp;s.

They have done this in the past and sure they will do it again.

[Ms. Cage]

I talked with head of AKC performance and said I know for sure that this pup is a half pointer,( which they declared and stood by their decision as pure gsp) and if it is ok, then I have a female gsp in season now and I intend to breed them together. At that point AKC voided the litter and said they would decline the litter as pure gsp;s. They have done this in the past and sure they will do it again.

Funny how things work. The whistle blower tells the truth and that's the one everybody wants to take a crap on. Happens all the time. You can almost bet the breeder will do his dirty deed again!!! But the breeders such a good guy :roll:

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

You're only hearing one side of the story between two people that have a history of bad blood.

Doug

[hi-tailyn]

You're only hearing one side of the story between two people that have a history of bad blood.

Doug

Problem is there are literately Dozens of these one sided stories out there. We must all be wrong and they are right. :roll: :roll:

If there is ANYONE out there that has even ONE good word about them, then I will be quiet, and hopefully save the next guy the pain in the end. Anyone that is not a cheat like them. There is not a single person that attends at the National level that would ever let them in their trailer, or call them a friend.

They are just like the slick Con Artists that you watch on TV. They are real.

[Ms. Cage]

You're only hearing one side of the story between two people that have a history of bad blood. Doug

I have no idea who the breeder is . I'm speaking in general. Been is simular situations, not cross breeding.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Why don't you just say his name so you can really set yourself up for a lawsuit.

Doug

[S&J gsp]

It is hard to believe that this is going on like this with some well known breeders. I'm not a breeder and my hat is off to those who are improving on the breed because of all the time and effort that goes into one litter to make improvements on what they already have. Any one can raise a litter of pups but few take the time to try and do what is right. All the trials and saddle time and driving to see the dogs outside of a trial setting. So why all the negative feedback on a breed that all of you are trying to make progress on. All the new folks looking for info on GSPs maybe looking at this I for one would not own a GSP if I seen all the negative thoughts in this post 18 years ago. I never knew the breed was so divided between blood lines.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

This was a good thread until the personal attacks started.

Doug

[hi-tailyn]

This was a good thread until the personal attacks started.

Doug

It was brought up that the cross breeding was from long ago. That it wasn't going on anymore.

Just bringing to light that it for fact still is for a very few that will cheat to win.

Why don't you just say his name so you can really set yourself up for a lawsuit.

Doug

I have already been to court and the judge said he knew what really went on with them, but it came down to he said he said.

There is a kennel in east TX that has a 20K suit against them, another kennel/horse plantation in GA that has been trying for 5 yrs with a 33K suit.

I guided in far south TX at a private plantation La Perla Ranch that they sold horses and tack to and trained dogs for and they stole 2 of their top pointers. Said they died during training.

The list goes on. Nobody could just make up such a long list.

The GSP breeders, trainers, owners, are a very trust worthy group. When I go to any of the trials, I never lock my truck or trailer. If anyone needed my truck to move something or needed to borrow trackers, horse equipment, They know they are welcome.

I apologize if it sounds like the GSP breed as a whole has problems. They don't.

Just a few bad apples and they tend to spoil it for the others in the basket.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Scott-I agree that gsp people being good, honest people is right. Most people would do anything to help out.

I just don't agree with airing dirty laundry on a public forum.

Doug

[Neil]

Sadly, much of this could be said about the Britts, V's, setters, and most other breeds.

And 100 years ago they were breeding setters to pointers to improve the pointers. Ever now and then you will see a long haired pointer, a throwback.

I hate cheaters.

[hi-tailyn]

Scott-I agree that gsp people being good, honest people is right. Most people would do anything to help out.

I just don't agree with airing dirty laundry on a public forum.

Doug

GSPs with EP bloodlines?

What I have brought up is exactly what this post is about.

The problem is those close to the problem don't want it spread around that it still is going on in their very small camp.

[Cajun Casey]

Scott-I agree that gsp people being good, honest people is right. Most people would do anything to help out.

I just don't agree with airing dirty laundry on a public forum.

Doug

GSPs with EP bloodlines?

What I have brought up is exactly what this post is about.

The problem is those close to the problem don't want it spread around that it still is going on in their very small camp.

Prehaps it is time that breed standards include genotype. Of course that would not affect FDSB registered dogs, but the GSPCA could certainly head that way.

[mask]

Sadly, much of this could be said about the Britts, V's, setters, and most other breeds.

And 100 years ago they were breeding setters to pointers to improve the pointers. Ever now and then you will see a long haired pointer, a throwback.

I hate cheaters.

If you ever see a long haired pointer you better look way closer than 100 years ago. There may be some but they are called setters

[Neil]

Didn't mean to suggest they skipped a hundred years or the hair is long enough to pass for a setter. In some lines a pointer with a medium long coat will show up every 4th - 5th generations.

If they could pass, they would be running.

[ACooper]

If you ever see a long haired pointer you better look way closer than 100 years ago. There may be some but they are called setters

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=29043&p=266735&hil ... wk#p266735

[Carolina Gundogs]

Coop, you got any pictures of any pointers crossed with foxhounds?

[clink83]

I think most people on here don't understand genetics enough. It would be very tough, if not impossible to identify a breed based on DNA without major genomemic seqencing of large numbers of dogs. Most pointing breeds are probably too close together genetically to tell apart.

From a population genetics standpoint since EP were used to make the GSP, you can't really disqualify a GSP from being a GSP because it has a rare coat color allelle that was present in the founding stock. Selecting for or against rare allelles is a bad idea..that's how you get lemon GSPs and pointing labs.Long haired pointers like the above are also possible without outcrossing, it could be a chance combination of rare allelles. Tail set also doesn't require outcrossing to change.


If you can make healthier dogs by outcrossing to other breeds I think k it should be done, but on paper and honest. "Breeds" don't really exist outside of the breed standard IMO.

[Neil]

Coop, you got any pictures of any pointers crossed with foxhounds?

According to the writtings of the early 1900's, that would be any of them. Here and Europe.

[hi-tailyn]

Coop, you got any pictures of any pointers crossed with foxhounds?

According to the writing's of the early 1900's, that would be any of them. Here and Europe.

The fox hound was introduced around the 50's. That is where they got more endurance and the 12 o'clock tails. From what I'm told by the old guys. This was done by a very well known and respected trainer.

[Neil]

They may have done it again in the 50's, but it is mentioned as happening in the teens in several books. They were trying to beat the setters.

[ymepointer]

[GrayDawg]

They may have done it again in the 50's, but it is mentioned as happening in the teens in several books. They were trying to beat the setters.

And they succeeded. I defy anyone reading this thread to put their arse in a car and get themselves to the Continental Championship. Get on a horse, ride a few braces- if not, an entire day. Then come back to this board and report regarding the run, style, manners on birds & biddability of the dogs you watched run.

I promise all of you they will be better than any GSP out there today.

So why is there such astonishment, amazement and/or bewilderment as to why/if breeders of GSPs (albeit a very small group) are breeding to Pointers?
It IS happening today, it happened yesterday & it will happen tomorrow. That's just the way it is.......... don't shoot the messenger. The "color" issue is
viewed as a minor inconvenience which sometimes leads to a 'smoking gun'.

If your panties are in a bunch because you feel certain GSP breeders in your area are breeding to Pointers so as to gain an upper hand in field trials and you are competing against the end result. I can only offer you this- it isn't going to change any time soon. So get over it & move on.

Or do what I did- buy a Pointer!

Rob

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Pretty bold statement Rob. How long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country?

Your GSP is a nice dog, but that line sure isn't the best the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

[GrayDawg]

Pretty bold statement Rob. How long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country?

Your GSP is a nice dog, but that line sure isn't the best the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

Doug,
Before I reply to your retort- What statement of mine are you referring to as "bold"?

I certainly know, understand & accept that my dog isn't the best the GSP world has to offer in terms of field trialing.
I never contended that she was.

Rob

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Pretty bold statement Rob. How long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country?

Your GSP is a nice dog, but that line sure isn't the best the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

Doug,
Before I reply to your retort- What statement of mine are you referring to as "bold"?

I certainly know, understand & accept that my dog isn't the best the GSP world has to offer in terms of field trialing.
I never contended that she was.

Rob

The part about the dogs at the Continental being better than ANY GSP out there. Once again , how long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country.

I wasn't slamming your dog. Just saying that the stuff she's out of isn't the best ft breeding that the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

[GrayDawg]

Pretty bold statement Rob. How long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country?

Your GSP is a nice dog, but that line sure isn't the best the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

Doug,
Before I reply to your retort- What statement of mine are you referring to as "bold"?

I certainly know, understand & accept that my dog isn't the best the GSP world has to offer in terms of field trialing.
I never contended that she was.

Rob

The part about the dogs at the Continental being better than ANY GSP out there. Once again , how long did it take you to watch EVERY GSP in the country.

I wasn't slamming your dog. Just saying that the stuff she's out of isn't the best ft breeding that the GSP world has to offer.

Doug

Two years ago & three years ago, I was fortunate enough to head out west for some bird hunting. On those two extended trips, I was able to take in the
NGSPA Chukar Championship, the NGSPA Sharptail Championship, the NGSPA Prairie Chicken Championship, the NGSPA Region 8 Championship & the NGSPA Hun Championship. While I was not able to see all of those championships both years, I was able to ride at least one day in each of the aforementioned trials over the course of two years. The Sharptail Championship I made both years and I rode two days of the Hun Championship & the Prairie Chicken Championship.

So that is the basis for my comparative observation between GSP's and Pointers. I've been and watched the biggest running GSPs in the biggest venues the lower 48 has to offer. Heck, I've seen bigger running Pointers at the Alabama Open Shooting Dog Championship, one doesn't even need to go to the Continental Championship....... it's a totally different game. If you haven't been to the Continental, stop announcing to everyone here on the board what you are completely unaware of. Or have you been to the Continental and are in a position to make a well founded comparative observation between BIG running Pointers versus that of BIG running GSPs?

My GSP came from AKC Hunt Test stock with a couple FC's thrown in....... nowhere near the same ballpark of some of the top GSP field trial dogs- not even close. But then again, my dog had nothing to do with my post that you replied to.

Have a safe & successful hunting season,

Rob

[slistoe]

Or have you been to the Continental and are in a position to make a well founded comparative observation between BIG running Pointers versus that of BIG running GSPs?

I'm thinking that maybe he has a GSP he is willing to enter and win it with - talking like that and all.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

You boys can twist it any way you want. I still want to know how long it took you to watch EVERY GSP in the country, like your post implies. If you haven't seen every gsp that trials then stop announcing on the board what you can't prove.

Slistoe-I'm not stupid. I have some "bleep" nice shorthairs, but do you really think they would put a gsp up at the Continental?

Doug

[Cajun Casey]

You boys can twist it any way you want. I still want to know how long it took you to watch EVERY GSP in the country, like your post implies. If you haven't seen every gsp that trials then stop announcing on the board what you can't prove.

Slistoe-I'm not stupid. I have some "bleep" nice shorthairs, but do you really think they would put a gsp up at the Continental?

Doug

With the right handler, it could happen.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Not according to King Rob.

[Cajun Casey]

Not according to King Rob.

Well, one of these days, he be proven wrong.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Maybe.

[GrayDawg]

You boys can twist it any way you want. I still want to know how long it took you to watch EVERY GSP in the country, like your post implies. If you haven't seen every gsp that trials then stop announcing on the board what you can't prove.

Slistoe-I'm not stupid. I have some "bleep" nice shorthairs, but do you really think they would put a gsp up at the Continental?

Doug

With the right handler, it could happen.

History would show that no GSP has been used by the judges at the Continental Championship in the last 17 years. That's as far back as I have
information for. So in this one particular case, Ricky Ticky is correct. I believe a dog would first need to qualify to run in the Continental
which means they would has to run and win an AF sanctioned, all breed OAA stake. Start with that first!

But you failed to answer my question- Have you ever been to/rode at the Continental Championship?

If anyone has a bigger running GSP than the GSPs running in any of the NGSPA Championships I mentioned above, they're wasting a "bleep" good GSP.
Not that I believe for one second that such a dog exists. The biggest running GSPs are running NGSPA prairie Championships. No two ways about it.
And those dogs would have their paws full running in an AF Shooting Dog Championship....... let alone an AA Championship.



Rob

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Never been to the Continental. Just like you haven't seen EVERY GSP in the country. (Every was your word not mine)

You know where you can put that 10 dollars.

Doug

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I'm kinda partial, but those Slick type dogs sure do win a lot on the national level. Just sayin. But then again, until I get Rob's 10 dollars I won't have a clue.

Doug

[Cajun Casey]

I'm kinda partial, but those Slick type dogs sure do win a lot on the national level. Just sayin. But then again, until I get Rob's 10 dollars I won't have a clue.

Doug

PM me your address and I'll send you my spare currencey checker.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

What's up with that, Andy?

Doug

[ACooper]

What's up with that, Andy?

Doug

When I posted I hadn't read the rest of your posts, and I was trying to think of a way to say it without sounding like an "bleep". Lol