Gun Dog Forum

I've heard it mentioned several times here and from a well known trainer. Does anyone have information on the X-breeding of EPs into the GSP breed? How prevalent is it in proven lines and is it beneficial? Just curious.

Fact is I'd say to some extent or another most performance bred GSP are carrying some EP a few generations back, or less......

My understanding is that it was done to get more run and add nose.

Jim

I really doubt that any one that has any actual information will discuss it on the internet. My opinion is that an English Pointer would improve any thing it was bred to.

Ya, so long as it is blackhawk

Winchey wrote:Ya, so long as it is blackhawk

We already have a breed called the German Longhaars.

Is the answer to question is probably was done. Could have it been done in all pointing breeds, most likely. The germans did it for years, but they put it in their pedigrees when done. The English pointers of years past were big blocky dogs as were other pointing breeds. Are the pointing breeds better for it, some say yes others no. But, today with DNA testing in both American Field and GSPCA and NGSPA and other breed organizations requiring it. It hopefully a thing of the past. I know the both pointers, vizlas, GSP's GWP all are quicker then those of 40 years ago. They are all more stylish on point and more bidable. I let you in the bird dog world decide if cross breeding between pointing dogs went on.

I understood that they also made the cross to put some handle on the English Pointer.
Why not ask where are all the pointers with German Shorthair bread into them?

The dna test for field trials simply shows that the parents are actually the parents. If mars testing is ever used it may show which dogs are cross bred and which are not. Then the breed clubs or akc or whom ever can decide How much pointer can be in another breed and still be run as that breed. I don't trial or show so a good dog is good dog no matter if it is crossed or not.

No doubt it's been done a lot, and recently. It was done to win trials.....

UC Davis has a test for the presence of the "e" in the coat color. I know of two bloodlines that should be tested. There are probably more.

It seems to me the NGSPA recently disqualified a national champion that failed a DNA test of parentage. If I remember correctly, a positive "e" tells you something however a negative "e" does not.

BigShooter wrote:It seems to me the NGSPA recently disqualified a national champion that failed a DNA test of parentage. If I remember correctly, a positive "e" tells you something however a negative "e" does not.

Havoc was DQ'd in AKC because, I believe, his father's littermate brother threw bad DNA. Had nothing to do with the dilution color gene. A liver shorthair is EEbb, a black is EEBB or EEBb. An "ee" dog can pass parentage just fine. His color will be a Conformation DQ in all venues.

Pointer ,the american field type, has been added to most modern american sporting breeds, to increase nose, heat tolerance, style, speed, endurance what ever the perceived problem may have been. It's always subjective as to what "better" is. Did pointer influence make GSPs better? It made them better trial dogs for sure, it probably made them better for certain upland birds, maybe most.

All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

How about the recent pointer influence in field bred Vs? Does that concern you?

ACooper wrote:

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

How about the recent pointer influence in field bred Vs? Does that concern you?

what do you consider "recent"?

Cajun Casey wrote:

BigShooter wrote:It seems to me the NGSPA recently disqualified a national champion that failed a DNA test of parentage. If I remember correctly, a positive "e" tells you something however a negative "e" does not.

Havoc was DQ'd in AKC because, I believe, his father's littermate brother threw bad DNA. Had nothing to do with the dilution color gene. A liver shorthair is EEbb, a black is EEBB or EEBb. An "ee" dog can pass parentage just fine. His color will be a Conformation DQ in all venues.

I don't understand why you are mixing the failed DNA parentage with checking for GSPs that carry the pointer's recessive gene for yellow.

I'm pretty certain you know more than I do about canine genetics. I thought there could be a pointer breeding that did not pass the recessive yellow gene. Hence if a GSP carries an "e" it came from a pointer but if it did not carry an "e" that doesn't mean pointer could never have been in the lineage. Please clarify as necessary.

BigShooter wrote:Hence if a GSP carries an "e" it came from a pointer but if it did not carry an "e" that doesn't mean pointer could never have been in the lineage. Please clarify as necessary.

You are right BigShooter

The "e" is red. It could come from any breed.

Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug

Cajun Casey wrote:The "e" is red. It could come from any breed.

Cajun Casey wrote:UC Davis has a test for the presence of the "e" in the coat color. I know of two bloodlines that should be tested. There are probably more.

Please explain.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:

ACooper wrote:

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

How about the recent pointer influence in field bred Vs? Does that concern you?

what do you consider "recent"?

1-4 generations IMO is recent.

ACooper wrote:1-4 generations IMO is recent.

There's a lot of V's with A LOT of white recently and tails that look like a pointer. Same with GSPs with the body and tail of pointers.

BigShooter wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:The "e" is red. It could come from any breed.

Cajun Casey wrote:UC Davis has a test for the presence of the "e" in the coat color. I know of two bloodlines that should be tested. There are probably more.

Please explain.

"e" is red. "E" is black. "B" is full pigmentation. "b" is dilute pigmentation. There are other genes that determine saturation, so an "e" can come from a pale lemon dog (eebb) or from a deep mahogany dog "eeBB." An Irish setter is "ee," as is a golden retriever.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

Never

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:All pure breds were X-bred at some point in time.Breeding Ep's with GSP's doesn't surprise nor concern me.

V's would not be in existence today if some breeders didn't use other breeds to re-introduce them after WW2. Pointers were used as well as Ridgebacks.


At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?

Never

Ezzy

we wouldn't have many great breeds of dogs if everyone thought like this.

Cajun Casey wrote:

BigShooter wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:The "e" is red. It could come from any breed.

Cajun Casey wrote:UC Davis has a test for the presence of the "e" in the coat color. I know of two bloodlines that should be tested. There are probably more.

Please explain.

"e" is red. "E" is black. "B" is full pigmentation. "b" is dilute pigmentation. There are other genes that determine saturation, so an "e" can come from a pale lemon dog (eebb) or from a deep mahogany dog "eeBB." An Irish setter is "ee," as is a golden retriever.

Seems to me although "e" may technically be correctly referred to as red it is often alternately expressed in literature as red, red/yellow or yellow.

Is it correct then to say "e" is not normally found in current GSPs? If "e" is found, the breed source cannot be determined. In other words if one suspects cross breeding to pointer & finds the hidden coat color "e", one may be even more suspicious but pointer could not be definitively determined to be the source.

Alternatively, isn't it also correct to say if no "e" is found one cannot prove pointer has never been cross-bred into that line?

It is interesting to note an authoritative source on GSP coat color stated early GSP colors included red. The origin was supposedly the Schweisshund.

So, basically, the modern "salting" of EP into the GSP line is not allowed under the trialing orgs, but is or has been going on?

Kinda reminds me of my days in the race engine biz when the Super Stock guys were having me tweek areas of the engine but not get them caught.

Someone brought up Vizslas. I can see where adding EP might be tempting.

Dont matter if you're adding Pointer, setter, hound or thoroughbred, good breeders know how to improve stock. Imo, big difference between intelligent out crosses and those that cheat so they can be a big fish in a little pond.

Too much EP and you might end up with a stubby tailed dog that won't retrieve and hates water.

At what point is it OK to cross breed versus line breed versus inbreed?[/quote]

How about the recent pointer influence in field bred Vs? Does that concern you?[/quote]

what do you consider "recent"?[/quote]

1-4 generations IMO is recent.[/quote]

How many generations does it take to breed out another breed? How closely is a German Shepherd related to a Chihuahua? How much is an EP related to a Lab?

I know what goes on in the breeding world and I don't condone alot of it but for the sake of conversation, why was it OK to do so years ago and forbidden today?

cmc274 wrote:Dont matter if you're adding Pointer, setter, hound or thoroughbred, good breeders know how to improve stock. Imo, big difference between intelligent out crosses and those that cheat so they can be a big fish in a little pond.

Kinda hit the nail on the head. Sure, it was okay to cross to other breeds as each breed was being developed. Then we declared we had gotten to dogs that were re-breeding true, maintaining consistent characteristics, e.g. "purebred" or "breeding pure". Once we moved to competitive events restricted to purebred dogs of of a certain breed, intended in part to focus on improving "purebred" dogs of that breed, a few folks begin looking for ways to cheat & others for methods to cut down on cheaters. There are of course multiple events allowing any mix you can come up with, like sprint sled dog races.

cmc274 wrote: ... good breeders know how to improve stock. ....

But of course, or they wouldn't be "good".

It seems to me being good at crossbreeding can take a lifetime for a dedicated and highly educated on the subject with good scientific resources to do well. The rest are lottery ticket hopefuls.

I had long suspected this as I watched the GSPs we had beginning in the 1960s evolving into something quite different these days. My last GSP passed 10 years ago. Sadly, I'll never have another because I just don't like what the breed has become. But, de gustibus non disputandum est, I suppose, and that's just my opinion.

rollick wrote:I had long suspected this as I watched the GSPs we had beginning in the 1960s evolving into something quite different these days. My last GSP passed 10 years ago. Sadly, I'll never have another because I just don't like what the breed has become. But, de gustibus non disputandum est, I suppose, and that's just my opinion.

I can assure you that whatever you loved about your last GSP is still out there and not hard to find. GSPs have a very large variety available, some say that's good some say it's bad.

Brooks Carmichael wrote:Is the answer to question is probably was done. Could have it been done in all pointing breeds, most likely. I know the both pointers,..... GWP all are quicker then those of 40 years ago. They are all more stylish on point and more bidable. I let you in the bird dog world decide if cross breeding between pointing dogs went on.

Uh, if pointers (sic) are "quicker than those of 40 years ago", did they cross in Pointers to get that way? And the (or at least a) salient quality of a GWP is its coat. ("The functional wiry coat is the breed’s most distinctive feature. A dog must have a correct coat to be of correct type.") You'd have to be crazy to cross in a smooth-coated breed after breed type is established. (US-recognized in 1959.) You'd mess up your lines for many generations. "Selective breeding" are the words you seek, at least for wirehairs. It's the American way.

One of the most obvious cross breeding that took place is when Pointers went from 9 o'clock tail to the field trial 12 o'clock tails and endurance.

That was not by breeding pointers to pointers. It is all well know someone famous did this to give more style in the pointers.

I like what the result is.

It is not just the GSP's that are doing the cross breeding's.

The pointers are not the end all. They have holes also.

Anyone that thinks something was bred into pointers to add style is delusional. I have seen a lot of gsps at trials that looked like docked pointers and ran a lot like them as well.

Fox Hound style and endurance!

Something sure happened.

The evolution to higher tails started at the turn of the century.

I can only imagine the crosses made by many of the great breeders in the past before DNA was put in place. I heard from a friend of Wehles once that if all knew what all he tried in effort to improve the breed, it would not be accepted by most today.
Way before Wehle's time, Several of the great EPs of the past were credited as hound crosses and the breed benefitted from it when compared to the objectives the breeders sought, heat tolerance, range, nose, etc.

Although I have no interest in crossing up breeds or owning dogs I feel are closely crossbred to another breed, I do understand the intent the breeders had and possibly even accomplished. I personally like for a Brittany to be a Brittany and a EP to be an EP.

Carolina Gundogs wrote:......I do understand the intent the breeders had and possibly even accomplished.

ACooper wrote:......It was done to win trials.....

cr

What you all are missing is back in the past you are talking about those people that had a goal they were working towards, a new breed. They didn't crossbreed and sell the pups. They cross bred and destroyed the pups that didn't have the characteristics they were working towards. Most did not just involve a single cross breeding but consisted of using several breeds to get to where they were going. This was all done to develop a completely new breed. Today, what is being done is just someone trying to change the breed that already exists to their liking. And there is no place for that in a responsible hunter, trialer, trainer or just plain owner's agenda.

Ezzy

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Carolina Gundogs wrote:......I do understand the intent the breeders had and possibly even accomplished.

ACooper wrote:......It was done to win trials.....

cr

Breed standards and acceptable practices, like history, are written by winners.

Beautifully said, Ezzy! You hit the nail right on the head.

What about breeding quarter horses and thoroughbreds?

displaced_texan wrote:What about breeding quarter horses and thoroughbreds?

Not the same. There are studbook registries for percentage horses and horses can be dual registered, like AQHA/APHA. If you want to be in the Thoroughbred studbook, the animal has to be live cover bred and documented. There are different levels of registration on broodmares, I know. Look at foxhounds, if you want to see a studbook nightmare. Each Hunt keeps their own, answering to the MFA. There are various bloodlines and crosses. A coonhound can be a foxhound if it is a July. Lines are outcrossed to gain or stengthen various traits.

Cajun Casey wrote:

displaced_texan wrote:What about breeding quarter horses and thoroughbreds?

Not the same. There are studbook registries for percentage horses and horses can be dual registered, like AQHA/APHA. If you want to be in the Thoroughbred studbook, the animal has to be live cover bred and documented. There are different levels of registration on broodmares, I know. Look at foxhounds, if you want to see a studbook nightmare. Each Hunt keeps their own, answering to the MFA. There are various bloodlines and crosses. A coonhound can be a foxhound if it is a July. Lines are outcrossed to gain or stengthen various traits.

Just curious, and I figured you'd know...

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Anybody know what became of those Hanshaw pups? Test results?

Doug

I have the little orange runt out of that litter, shes a birdy little hunting machine and runs pretty big 3-500 yards is common
He told me the DNA result proved sin city slick ace was the real father

I am having fun with her she thinks shes 10 feet tall lol