??EP as grouse and woodcock dogs??

JeffLex00 · Post by **JeffLex00** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:43 am

This is probably a dumb question, but I figured I would run it past you guys on here and see what kind of experiences you might have had. I am currently hunting a GSP for grouse and woodcock in the northwoods of Wisconsin. I am very impressed by the looks and style of English Pointers. I am just curious if EP's can be good ruffed grouse dogs, or if their drive and running is just too strong to work a bird like the ruffed grouse that tends to bump pretty easy? I do my own training, and I am FAR from a professional, so training a dog to do something that is on the outside of it's natural ability/instinct is not going to be something that i am comfortable working towards. What are your opinions?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:42 am

Pointers are pretty far down the list of choices for reasons you mention. I'd be a lot more tempted to go another direction and add a setter to your family. There are no absolutes but setters are more often selected for grouse hunting because folks seem to have been happier with the way they work in the woods & handle grouse.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:39 am

I live in Pa and grouse and woodcock are just about all we have to hunt, unless you want to count the pet birds the game commission calls Pa Pheasants... Mine does just fine. Lots of people have EP's and hunt the thick stuff... can you find an EP more suited to a horse back hunt on the prairie? Of course... But you will see plenty of EP's in the woods too. Find a breeder and a line of dogs you like, work on obedience and basic dog training 101 first... the dog will learn to hunt the wild birds with experience, wherever they are... My dog approaches a running rooster a lot differently than a grouse... find a dog you like, and have fun. good luck!

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:16 am

JeffLex00 wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but I figured I would run it past you guys on here and see what kind of experiences you might have had. I am currently hunting a GSP for grouse and woodcock in the northwoods of Wisconsin. I am very impressed by the looks and style of English Pointers. I am just curious if EP's can be good ruffed grouse dogs, or if their drive and running is just too strong to work a bird like the ruffed grouse that tends to bump pretty easy? I do my own training, and I am FAR from a professional, so training a dog to do something that is on the outside of it's natural ability/instinct is not going to be something that i am comfortable working towards. What are your opinions?

EPs make wonderful ruffed grouse dogs as seen by their presence in the grouse woods.
CoverDog folks never shy from them as well, which should be a further indication.

Whether EPs will work for an individual hunting ruffed grouse and woodcock is more a function of the individual than the dog.

All EPs and lines of EPs are not equal though and a bit of research will turn up those that will most easily offer the best chance of pleasing success...basically, any dog needs to learn what is expected and then the majority of well bred dogs will deliver based upon the ability of the trainer and bird contacts.
Wild bird contacts or opportunities and experience working ruffed grouse is more the deal than breed.
Research pays dividends.

Personally, I would choose an EP over a GSP in the grouse woods by 20X and in a heartbeat....and I have 3 setters as my preference and have owned a GSP.
It's all about preference.

I saw 4 young EPs at a trainers in NE Pa. a few days ago that any wise ruffed grouse hunter would knock a buffalo aside to get to them.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:21 am

The simple answer is...Yes pointers can and do make excellent grouse and woodcock dogs.

The cover dog trialers favor small, sprightly, very animated English Setters, with incredible foot speed...and that is what places in cover trials mostly. However, there have been plenty of pointers over the years that have competed and won in the grouse woods. The bigger dogs might not have the blazing foot speed of the smaller setters, but they can cover the necessary ground just fine.

Those same cover dog setters with the blazing foot speed routinely get left in the dust at horseback field trials by dogs with longer gaits. A larger dog with a longer, more fluid gait will run for hours and be ready to go the next day. The smaller more animated dog has to work harder to cover the same ground.

There might be some all age lines that would not be a first choice for hunting in cover. The is such a thing as too big and too much run... but a dog that is intelligent and biddable will figure out how to work with you in the kind of cover the grouse and woodcock frequent. The nose is the same and the birds will teach the dog how to hunt and handle them.

The pointer will typically have two advantages over the cover dog setter. First it is taller, and usually whiter so it is easier to see in cover. Second, at the end of the hunt,you don't have to spend a half hour pulling burrs, stickers and other assorted hangers-on from a pointers coat, just like your GSP.

Get the dog you like.

RayG

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:56 am

Region 1 pointers outnumber setters or it is pretty close at least. Probably has a lot to do with the success of the Chasehill dogs and the Wild Apple dogs. They are tough to beat, they are good sized nice moving and big running dogs, tough to compete with a shorter fancy setter. Long Gone seems to have gone quite big as well. Buckweat and Boston are quite big dogs. Pennstar dogs are generally small and fancy.

If I could get over the ugliness, I would step into the darkside in a heartbeat as I feel I would have a better chance of winning in the woods with a pointer.

Nicest dog I have seen run in the woods is out of Strut and and a HB SD champ.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:42 am

In the foot handled wild grouse and wood cock trials, pointers win at about the same percentage as entered, as do Britts. Setters are entered on a 2 to 1 rate. Few of the other breeds are even entered.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:59 am

Neil wrote:In the foot handled wild grouse and wood cock trials, pointers win at about the same percentage as entered, as do Britts. Setters are entered on a 2 to 1 rate. Few of the other breeds are even entered.

Kind of like Horseback Trails here only pointers are entered more than 2-1 rate.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:44 am

I never hunted birds east of Montana or Colorado. I've never seen a pointer run Grouse. I've never seen a pointer that could be pulled in even remotely well enough to run Grouse. I've had several Pointer's and was never able to rein them in to any kind of a foot dog. Boy they were good off of horseback though. I think Wehle bred his dog's to work cover. Biggest running pointer I ever had here was an Elhew/Hooks Bounty Hunter dog. Saw a young Guard Rail dog that didn't run a whole lot but before it was trained the guy got rid of her. To bad, she'd never range much beyond 200 yds in the open field and really stayed with the handler. When I no longer had horse's, my last pointer lived out his life as my buddy, when I could find him.

Friend of mine here has a pointer he got from the mid west. He got it for free because the dog wouldn't run enough. Well it didn't when it got here, certainly enough for a cover dog but not a chukar dog, well considering what a lot of people out here think a chukar dog should be. Well I saw the dog several time early on. We west pheasant hunting last time I saw him and the dog stared right with him. Then the dog found a pheasant, ran over another and so much for the cover dog, this guy reayy likes to run. Anly goes out about 300-400yds but you'd never find it in grouse woods.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:18 pm

Winchey wrote:Region 1 pointers outnumber setters or it is pretty close at least. Probably has a lot to do with the success of the Chasehill dogs and the Wild Apple dogs. They are tough to beat, they are good sized nice moving and big running dogs, tough to compete with a shorter fancy setter. Long Gone seems to have gone quite big as well. Buckweat and Boston are quite big dogs. Pennstar dogs are generally small and fancy.

If I could get over the ugliness, I would step into the darkside in a heartbeat as I feel I would have a better chance of winning in the woods with a pointer.

Nicest dog I have seen run in the woods is out of Strut and and a HB SD champ.

Winchey -

Their only bad side is from directly behind. That monkey butt ain't pretty, I will admit., especially when the tail is at 12 o'clock. Any other view is pretty nice though, at least in my opinion. Setters do have an advantage in the looks department with those feathers flying on their legs and tail, but as I said they are burr magnets.

As far as pointers running too big in the grouse woods... I firmly believe it is all how you bring them along. I foot hunt all my dogs on preserves. I also field trial all my dogs, mostly on horseback. The dog I gave my son for a hunting dog a couple years ago had placements in every venue, AF walking(amateur), AF horseback shooting dog(open and amateur) and AKC horseback open all age and open gun dog. He also competed several times in AF amateur all age stakes, some of which were one hour and I never felt I didn't have enough dog. More often it was the other way 'round, like the time he blew out the front at the Virginia Amateur All Age at the Cloverdale farm a few years back or the time I ran him at Petersburg DE in a gundog stake and lost him. When I asked the folks at the breakaway if they had seen him, they said yes, saw him twice, each time he came by after running the course. I caught up with him on his third go round. my son has run him in walking stakes and foot hunted him on NJ WMA's and pay to hunt preserves.

If the dog wants to stay with you, it will gear up or gear down, as necessary to do that. Mine always have.

RayG

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:32 pm

I think they make awesome grouse and woodcock dogs. After a trip up there last year with my husband, we've put money down on a breeding based on the dogs we hunted over in Wisconsin. We have our own two EP's that do everything well except they don't LOVE the water like our GSP and Vizsla, they swim, but they don't love it. I think the EP's are the most stylish dogs out there and these 3 we hunted over were absolutely beautiful, in bird finding ability, style, and attitude. My new pup should be on the ground here this weekend or early next week. Very much looking forward to it!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:47 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Winchey wrote:Region 1 pointers outnumber setters or it is pretty close at least. Probably has a lot to do with the success of the Chasehill dogs and the Wild Apple dogs. They are tough to beat, they are good sized nice moving and big running dogs, tough to compete with a shorter fancy setter. Long Gone seems to have gone quite big as well. Buckweat and Boston are quite big dogs. Pennstar dogs are generally small and fancy.

If I could get over the ugliness, I would step into the darkside in a heartbeat as I feel I would have a better chance of winning in the woods with a pointer.

Nicest dog I have seen run in the woods is out of Strut and and a HB SD champ.
Winchey -

Their only bad side is from directly behind. That monkey butt ain't pretty, I will admit., especially when the tail is at 12 o'clock. Any other view is pretty nice though, at least in my opinion. Setters do have an advantage in the looks department with those feathers flying on their legs and tail, but as I said they are burr magnets.

As far as pointers running too big in the grouse woods... I firmly believe it is all how you bring them along. I foot hunt all my dogs on preserves. I also field trial all my dogs, mostly on horseback. The dog I gave my son for a hunting dog a couple years ago had placements in every venue, AF walking(amateur), AF horseback shooting dog(open and amateur) and AKC horseback open all age and open gun dog. He also competed several times in AF amateur all age stakes, some of which were one hour and I never felt I didn't have enough dog. More often it was the other way 'round, like the time he blew out the front at the Virginia Amateur All Age at the Cloverdale farm a few years back or the time I ran him at Petersburg DE in a gundog stake and lost him. When I asked the folks at the breakaway if they had seen him, they said yes, saw him twice, each time he came by after running the course. I caught up with him on his third go round. my son has run him in walking stakes and foot hunted him on NJ WMA's and pay to hunt preserves.

If the dog wants to stay with you, it will gear up or gear down, as necessary to do that. Mine always have.

RayG

Thats the dog I want, one that I can hunt in the grouse woods, then if the opportunity arose could compete out west or down south. Whether I get the oppurtunity or not, I want one with the physical and mental attributes to get it done anywhere. I think pointers have that in spades. A friend of mine only runs the hottest hb sd and aa blood around up here in the woods, he has had about 10 dogs in his kennel for decades and most of them figure it out. There seems to be less duds as compared with other breeds for some reason.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:54 pm

Winchey wrote:
Thats the dog I want, one that I can hunt in the grouse woods, then if the opportunity arose could compete out west or down south. Whether I get the oppurtunity or not, I want one with the physical and mental attributes to get it done anywhere. I think pointers have that in spades. A friend of mine only runs the hottest hb sd and aa blood around up here in the woods, he has had about 10 dogs in his kennel for decades and most of them figure it out. There seems to be less duds as compared with other breeds for some reason.

Winchey -

That dog I spoke of was backyard bred, but his daddy had a ton of Evolution blood in him as well as some other all age and SD stuff and his momma had Redemption's Reward and Gunsmoke's Fat Boy. His only real problem was his trainer and handler...ME. Both his sire and dam had multiple placements in multiple ve3nues, including both Horseback and walking stakes, AF and AKC as well as a couple of US Complete placements.

I only can have a very few dogs, so they gotta do it all. I know pointers can. Other breeds can too, I am sure, but I have had good luck with pointers, so I ain't messin' with success.

RayG

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:51 pm

I would not mess with that formula. I think I may try some hytest skyhawk for the next pospect.

My friend has all that blood in his kennel, they get it done, grouse woods uncluded.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:10 am

Any time you ask a question about whether a certain gundog breed is flexible enough to handle "X" type of bird hunting you will always get those that own the breed saying of course they can do it and do it well. This is usually followed up with some statements about how you just need to look for the right breeding or line to find what you want. If there is a dissenter, the challenge will be thrown out that they have limited experience with that breed and don't know what they are talking about. Then the conversation usually morphs into a discussion about whether it's genetics, the right training, how you bring them along or whether the dogs will virtually train themselves with enough exposure to wild birds. These conversations are all too predictable.

If you're willing to do a little research you're likely to find a suitable hunting companion within any of the popular gundog breeds.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:48 am

BigShooter wrote:Any time you ask a question about whether a certain gundog breed is flexible enough to handle "X" type of bird hunting you will always get those that own the breed saying of course they can do it and do it well. This is usually followed up with some statements about how you just need to look for the right breeding or line to find what you want. If there is a dissenter, the challenge will be thrown out that they have limited experience with that breed and don't know what they are talking about. Then the conversation usually morphs into a discussion about whether it's genetics, the right training, how you bring them along or whether the dogs will virtually train themselves with enough exposure to wild birds. These conversations are all too predictable.

If you're willing to do a little research you're likely to find a suitable hunting companion within any of the popular gundog breeds.

I absolutely agree. There are some, relatively few, pointers who I am quite sure, would not be particularly suited to the grouse woods because of their physical size and/or because of their fiercely independent nature which will take them far too aggressively forward in search of game. Even those dogs could, in my opinion, be trained to work grouse nd woodcock, but why bother? There are many more who would be much better choices.

I do believe I could say exactly the same thing about German Shorthairs or English Setters. Those who know the breeds better could probably say the same about Red setters and Brittanys.

In my opinion, the "right breeding " is a dog with all the tools to do whatever you may want it to, combined with the biddability to take the training necessary and the intelligence to know when to switch gears. A large dose of shoeleather on the trainer's part sure don't hunt either.

RayG

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:50 am

Jeff,

Cool to see someone else from the Wausau area on here!

Can a pointer do well in the grouse woods? I believe that the answer is yes...IF you pick the right lines and bring up the pointer carefully for that purpose. But if you have a heavily Blackhawk-bred dog with a ton of independence and a tendency to overrun her nose (like my friend's pointer), it is extremely difficult to turn that dog into a good grouse dog.

Since you are so close to the local NAVHDA training grounds, I would recommend that you come down to one of our training days where you can see a whole host of different breeds/dogs that will, for the most part, be much easier for a newbie to develop into a nice grouse dog. And you'll meet a whole group of folks to train with that can help you turn whatever breed you get into a good grouse dog.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:24 am

My friend just got a pair of blackhawk pups from Calloway, we will see how they turn out.

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:09 am

I would look into breeders that hunt there dogs mostly on grouse and woodcock. Here is a breeder that guides on grouse and is in Wisconsin http://www.superiorpointers.com/.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:39 pm

I would think EPs would be awesome for grouse and woodcock that sit tight. EPs to me look like the most intense and stylish of all the pointers.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:07 pm

JeffLex00 wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but I figured I would run it past you guys on here and see what kind of experiences you might have had. I am currently hunting a GSP for grouse and woodcock in the northwoods of Wisconsin. I am very impressed by the looks and style of English Pointers. I am just curious if EP's can be good ruffed grouse dogs, or if their drive and running is just too strong to work a bird like the ruffed grouse that tends to bump pretty easy? I do my own training, and I am FAR from a professional, so training a dog to do something that is on the outside of it's natural ability/instinct is not going to be something that i am comfortable working towards. What are your opinions?

I obviously don't know the terrain/ground in your area,but more than familiar with the game.
The Ground (ime) determines the best suitable the breed for that game.
The Cocker is known as the 'woodcock' dog,and the Pointer is renowned on the grouse.
95% of grouse and woodcock shot in my 'country' are put in the bag by springers and retrievers.
The GSP,can do both! but then so can many others?.

JeffLex00 · Post by **JeffLex00** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:26 pm

Thank you everyone for your input. And thank you UP-HUNTER for the breeder. I actually got in contact with them yesterday, and will be following up even more with them.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:34 pm

[quote="polmaisquote="JeffLex00"]This is probably a dumb question, but I figured I would run it past you guys on here and see what kind of experiences you might have had. I am currently hunting a GSP for grouse and woodcock in the northwoods of Wisconsin. I am very impressed by the looks and style of English Pointers. I am just curious if EP's can be good ruffed grouse dogs, or if their drive and running is just too strong to work a bird like the ruffed grouse that tends to bump pretty easy? I do my own training, and I am FAR from a professional, so training a dog to do something that is on the outside of it's natural ability/instinct is not going to be something that i am comfortable working towards. What are your opinions?[/quote]
I obviously don't know the terrain/ground in your area,but more than familiar with the game.
The Ground (ime) determines the best suitable the breed for that game.
The Cocker is known as the 'woodcock' dog,and the Pointer is renowned on the grouse.
95% of grouse and woodcock shot in my 'country' are put in the bag by springers and retrievers.
The GSP,can do both! but then so can many others?.[/quote]

What is wrong with an EP on woodcock over there? They are a lot easier to get pointed and hold better than ruffed grouse?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:42 pm

Winchey wrote:
What is wrong with an EP on woodcock over there? They are a lot easier to get pointed and hold better than ruffed grouse?

Nothing!?...
But as I say ,there is also nothing wrong with other breeds also?...What do you say?

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:48 pm

A lot depends where you live. In Pennsylvania shutting the car door too hard can scatter the grouse. The best dogs are the classic large bone setters and the dogs with a similar temperament that are quiet in the woods. Slow foot hunters with big noses is what you want.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:21 pm

polmaise wrote:
Winchey wrote:
What is wrong with an EP on woodcock over there? They are a lot easier to get pointed and hold better than ruffed grouse?
Nothing!?...
But as I say ,there is also nothing wrong with other breeds also?...What do you say?

I prefer the trial type setters and pointers, but yes other breeds can find and point birds too. Some of my covers you could do well with a spaniel, others not so much.

Totally disagree with MonsterDad.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:42 pm

Winchey wrote:
polmaise wrote:
Winchey wrote:
What is wrong with an EP on woodcock over there? They are a lot easier to get pointed and hold better than ruffed grouse?
Nothing!?...
But as I say ,there is also nothing wrong with other breeds also?...What do you say?
I prefer the trial type setters and pointers, but yes other breeds can find and point birds too. Some of my covers you could do well with a spaniel, others not so much.

Totally disagree with MonsterDad.

You have the right. So when was the last time you were in Tioga, Pa? Somehow we manage to get along fine with traditional dogs like Setters and some nice wirehairs that act like setters, some of which can show and most are pretty true to standard with nice proper flat tail point.

There is nothing more boring than talking about trial dogs as a better dog. A setter is a big dog, that is a quiet animal requiring basic training and points with a flat tail.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:54 pm

MonsterDad wrote:A lot depends where you live. In Pennsylvania shutting the car door too hard can scatter the grouse. The best dogs are the classic large bone setters and the dogs with a similar temperament that are quiet in the woods. Slow foot hunters with big noses is what you want.

No, to the speed..... or size of nose. :roll:

One of the quietest dogs I have seen is an English pointer female.

Ruffed grouse dogs, in the Apps. especially, perform best with good bird genetics behind them and experience from bird contacts.
The breed is only personal preference and often based upon regional preferences.

*I see by your following post to W that you are one of those trial dog downers...must be a biased fan of traditional Potter mountain men who exaggerate.
I was at a trainer east of Scranton for a couple of days last week....saw setters and pointers any grouse hunter would love.
One was mine.
Having grouse hunted for nearly 50 years, FT pups work fine.
Dual setters also work a treat with the OHers personal friends but those dogs are not the only answer.....unless you need to put down the dogs of others simply to make the case for your own.
Your response is typical as breed discussions usually take the road of the lowest common denominator poster.
More sad that.

**Ah, I see you changed your post wording....wise.
Still wrong and biased and narrow but...the change was wise.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:34 pm

"You have the right. So when was the last time you were in Tioga, Pa? Somehow we manage to get along fine with traditional dogs like Setters and some nice wirehairs that act like setters, some of which can show and most are pretty true to standard with nice proper flat tail point.

There is nothing more boring than talking about trial dogs as a better dog. A setter is a big dog, that is a quiet animal requiring basic training and points with a flat tail.[/quote]

There are several grouse trials 3 hours or less from there, they seem to get grouse pointed.

There have been setters very similar to todays trial setters pre-dating the AKC, I could care less what AKC's setter standard now states, I hardly consider trial setters and show setters the same breed, and it doesn't bother me in the least.

I have never seen a show or dual type that hunted a lick, but if that is what you enjoy, by all means have at it.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:00 pm

Pointers make great grouse dogs and I'm a setter guy. Go to the National Amateur Grouse trial about an hour and a half west of you in October. You'll see several pointers (and setters) running in grouse woods finding grouse. You'll get a good feel for how a pointers hunts in the grouse woods.

Reilly Auld · Post by **Reilly Auld** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:12 pm

I have a ROFT pointer that does really well on grouse.

My ROFT setters do well also.

Not all setters need be CGTD to handle grouse. Not even in PA.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:50 pm

This guy is asking about hunting dogs. Yet some of you want to tell the poster about trial dogs. I've heard on here many times that trialing and hunting are 2 different things. That said we have seen a good number of EP's make fine grouse dogs. We have also seen a good number of EP's that could not adjust to the grouse woods.
We like EP's and have had a few that were good grouse dogs and a few we sent backing due to thier run. They served better in open country.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:This guy is asking about hunting dogs. Yet some of you want to tell the poster about trial dogs. I've heard on here many times that trialing and hunting are 2 different things....

Not much more different than eating an ice cream cone or a bowl of soup...each has their requirements for success.

Pointer or Setter....washed out of FTing dogs very often go wanting and they can make excellent hunting dogs.
That should be the take-away.

Whether the owner is a right mix for any dog is another issue and why either breed blindness or silly generalizations are lousy ideas and research/homework delivers the best result for the hunter...and, more importantly, for the dog.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:02 pm

I think it comes down to personal preference and what type of cover you hunt. Where I hunt its thick bush and the grouse flush hard and with very little pressure... so the choice was easy for me - I needed a flusher that would get into the nastiest of cover. In wider open places where grouse will sit longer and tigher, a pointer would definitely excel as it would give you time to position yourself for the flush (or maybe even be lucky enough to get it before the flush). I don't hunt those places though.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:44 pm

Winchey wrote:

There are several grouse trials 3 hours or less from there, they seem to get grouse pointed.

There have been setters very similar to todays trial setters pre-dating the AKC, I could care less what AKC's setter standard now states, I hardly consider trial setters and show setters the same breed, and it doesn't bother me in the least.

I have never seen a show or dual type that hunted a lick, but if that is what you enjoy, by all means have at it.

I think you need to read the AKC standard before making that statement. It is the dogs they are putting up it shows that don't match it.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:06 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:This guy is asking about hunting dogs. Yet some of you want to tell the poster about trial dogs. I've heard on here many times that trialing and hunting are 2 different things. That said we have seen a good number of EP's make fine grouse dogs. We have also seen a good number of EP's that could not adjust to the grouse woods.
We like EP's and have had a few that were good grouse dogs and a few we sent backing due to thier run. They served better in open country.

If you know of a better place for the OP or anyone else for that matter to see a lot of dogs running on wild birds in a short amount of time please let us know. The OP may not want a trial dog, but since he/she is asking about how pointers are on grouse a grouse trial is a great way to see several different pointers in a short amount of time. It is also a good place to talk to a lot of dog people to get ideas of where one look for a pup.

As far as asking about hunting dogs many of the same dogs that are run in grouse trials are also hunted. Some of us will go hunting with our dogs after our brace. The trial grounds in this area are on the same grounds and the same birds that hunters use and try to shoot so it's a great way to watch how several pointers hunt grouse cover and handle grouse.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:22 pm

Winchey wrote: If I could get over the ugliness, I would step into the darkside in a heartbeat as I feel I would have a better chance of winning in the woods with a pointer.

I used to like you. Lol

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:58 am

MonsterDad wrote:A lot depends where you live. In Pennsylvania shutting the car door too hard can scatter the grouse. The best dogs are the classic large bone setters and the dogs with a similar temperament that are quiet in the woods. Slow foot hunters with big noses is what you want.

Aw c'mon now. Let's not get into the mythical Pennslytuky grouse that is superior to all other gamebirds in general and all other grouse in particular.

Actually it sounds like slow foot hunters are what YOU like. And that is fine.

RayG

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:17 pm

Having had many enjoyable hunts behind hard and fast working EP's , I would say you should go for it. They slam into the scent cone and hold for the gun. I can tell you that most of the birds that I walk up are flushing out of the tops of evergreen trees on very windy days or when I hit the ground too early in the winter. They are dogs that hunt the cover with speed and stamina. Get them to love you and keep running them on ruffs only shooting points.

JeffLex00 · Post by **JeffLex00** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:33 am

Thank you everyone for your input. I continued to read this daily as well as search for even more information on the internet. I found a breeder who was very helpful and full of information, and I mailed my check for the down payment today. I never meant to start an argument about which breed is best suited, I simply was curious as to any past/present experiences with Pointers as grouse/woodcock dogs in heavier cover that the knowledgeable people on here have had. I thank everyone who has helped me to make this decision. Thank you.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:55 am

Great!.. so now that that's settled... make sure you post pics of the pup once it arrives!

and keep us posted!

MN Bonasa · Post by **MN Bonasa** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 am

If I was to get a pointer for grouse I would seriously look at these guys.

http://www.northwnd.com/northwind-dogs.html

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:55 am

I would go Chasehill, Wild Apple, HiFive or Woodcock Haven.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:58 am

MN Bonasa wrote:If I was to get a pointer for grouse I would seriously look at these guys.

http://www.northwnd.com/northwind-dogs.html

I just checked out the pedigrees of the first three males listed. The first two are very nicely bred, and what I would consider a REAL ElHEW dog.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:44 pm

As far as pointers running too big in the grouse woods... I firmly believe it is all how you bring them along.

There it is!

I'm really not a EP fan mostly due to what I have heard & my own ignorance of the breed. I do believe a hound is what you make it though, so I wonder are there EP lines that are known for being more dependent or biddable?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:28 pm

Miller.....Horseback dogs......hows that for smashing stereotypes

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:09 pm

QuillGordon wrote:
As far as pointers running too big in the grouse woods... I firmly believe it is all how you bring them along.
There it is!

I'm really not a EP fan mostly due to what I have heard & my own ignorance of the breed. I do believe a hound is what you make it though, so I wonder are there EP lines that are known for being more dependent or biddable?

These days?? Just about any and all of them are biddable, even the all age dogs. The days of the wild eyed, fiercely independent, firebreathers are gone. Even the biggest running all age dogs are bred to go with their handler.

WHY?

Because you can win with any kind of dog except a lost one. If a dog does not listen and does not handle, it WILL get lost and it WILL NOT win.

RayG

JeffLex00 · Post by **JeffLex00** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:14 pm

Thank you SHORTFAT. He is a heavily bred Elhew dog whos breeder hunts their Pointers in the exact kind of cover that I hunt. He seems to have amazing blood lines and from what the breeder is telling me (seems to be a very honest guy that REALLy knows his Pointers and the Elhew blood lines) this should be the puppy of my dreams! The majority of any issues will be directly my fault...lol. I will be sure to post pics as soon as I get him! Who doesn't love any pics of bird dog puppies?

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:04 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
QuillGordon wrote:
As far as pointers running too big in the grouse woods... I firmly believe it is all how you bring them along.
There it is!

I'm really not a EP fan mostly due to what I have heard & my own ignorance of the breed. I do believe a hound is what you make it though, so I wonder are there EP lines that are known for being more dependent or biddable?

These days?? Just about any and all of them are biddable, even the all age dogs. The days of the wild eyed, fiercely independent, firebreathers are gone. Even the biggest running all age dogs are bred to go with their handler.

WHY?

Because you can win with any kind of dog except a lost one. If a dog does not listen and does not handle, it WILL get lost and it WILL NOT win.

RayG

Well said!

JeffLex00 wrote:I will be sure to post pics as soon as I get him! Who doesn't love any pics of bird dog puppies?

Commies....