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I think i've messed up big time

I think i've messed up big time

Postby Fester » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:11 pm

I have somehow let my best female LLewellin get in a family way with her own son :( ya'll reckon thell have 5 legs?, I honestly don't know what to do, she is pretty far along and starting to swell, I don't even know if I can register them
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Cajun Casey » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:23 pm

If both are registered, you can register the pups. If both parents are physically normal, then the pups should be fine. Deafness would be a concern for me, considering the breed. If you don't mind having her spayed, there are vets that will terminate a pregnancy through spaying.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby rinker » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:10 pm

I thought this sort of thing was common in Kentucky.

But seriously, you can register them and they should be fine. My only concern would be, how certain are you that she wasn't exposed to another male.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby jimbo&rooster » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:54 pm

I think youll find that breedings this close while not done every day aren't terribly uncommon.

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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby madmurph » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:52 pm

PM sent
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby shags » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:02 am

One of my best dogs came from a mother-son "oops!" breeding. Accidental breeding or one planned far in advance, there is never a guarantee on how the pups will turn out. You have just as much chance with these doubling up on the good stuff as on the bad.
Good luck with your litter.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Fester » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:00 am

Maybe I havent messed up as bad as I thought, the female is an exceptional dog probably the most natural dog I have seen and the male is young but is also showing signs of being a good dog just to early to tell he points and holds birds thats about all i know and has a good confirmation so we'll see
thanks for the replies
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby polmaise » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:37 pm

The Hills have Eyes'
Great film, loved it! when I had a few beers, then woke up from a nightmare.
Gonna take the dogs for a walk, and contemplate why I should really bother sometimes.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby mountaindogs » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:30 pm

My opinion (and I am rarely so harsh) is that you have messed up big time and you are bringing puppies into the world with a potential disadvantage rather than planning the litter carefully. Are both dogs perfect? If not you can expect that the things you dislike will be even more extreme but possibly the things you like too. Things both good and bad will be magnified. You will have a harder time placing these puppies for any decent amount of money, but still owe them full and proper care which will likely cost more than you will get. If you register them you should genetically test any who will not be spayed or nuetered to be sure sure that they are out of those two dogs since you probably didn't witness the breeding. You also need to be prepared to be extra good at socializing to combat any potential disadvantage they may have from say the compounding of very soft attitudes or aggression or any other slight tendancy the parents may have. Cleft pallet, deafness, heart issues and other congenital risks are increased since the odds are higher that if one is a carrier... so is the other.
All that said, what's done is done and all you can do now is take the responsibility to heart, raise the litter th best you can, place them in good well informed homes and hope you get lucky and get mostly good stuff. But be prepared in case you don't.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby clink83 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:40 pm

mountaindogs wrote:My opinion (and I am rarely so harsh) is that you have messed up big time and you are bringing puppies into the world with a potential disadvantage rather than planning the litter carefully. Are both dogs perfect? If not you can expect that the things you dislike will be even more extreme but possibly the things you like too. Things both good and bad will be magnified. You will have a harder time placing these puppies for any decent amount of money, but still owe them full and proper care which will likely cost more than you will get. If you register them you should genetically test any who will not be spayed or nuetered to be sure sure that they are out of those two dogs since you probably didn't witness the breeding. You also need to be prepared to be extra good at socializing to combat any potential disadvantage they may have from say the compounding of very soft attitudes or aggression or any other slight tendancy the parents may have. Cleft pallet, deafness, heart issues and other congenital risks are increased since the odds are higher that if one is a carrier... so is the other.
All that said, what's done is done and all you can do now is take the responsibility to heart, raise the litter th best you can, place them in good well informed homes and hope you get lucky and get mostly good stuff. But be prepared in case you don't.

That's a lot of doom and gloom. I guess everyone who breeds is an expert at genetics, and knows what they are doing. Eesh. No dog is perfect, and most dogs bred are only as good as the overall population anyways.
Breeding two good dogs doesn't guarantee good pups, as I'm sure some of the people on thus site that breed have found out.

Its not a big deal if the dog comes from clean blood lines. You'll have a higher risk of recessive diseases, and maby reduced immune function. If the buyers want to breed the dog, advise them to breed far apart from your lines. The well known breeder I got my Brittany from told me they did the same thing, it happens sometimes.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby RAWACRES » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

I was once going to buy a dog from a well known breeder and was told she was breed by her brother, I said forget that! Well these dogs turned out to be some "bleep" good dogs which won a lot of field trial events and are well known today. I'm sure EZZY will disagree anyway! lol
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Wyndancer » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:16 pm

The perfect dog has yet to be bred.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:22 pm

Fester wrote:I have somehow let my best female LLewellin get in a family way with her own son :( ya'll reckon thell have 5 legs?, I honestly don't know what to do, she is pretty far along and starting to swell, I don't even know if I can register them
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Just Relax. Some of the best field trial dogs are the product of inbreeding. I wouldn't inbreed as a practice unless I really really knew what I was doing. It's not the end of the world, I'll bet the pups will be fine.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby mountaindogs » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:23 pm

Wyndancer wrote:The perfect dog has yet to be bred.

Yes exactly. That's why I chose that very word. Because NO dog is so you meed to really look at the dogs and be honest and be prepared.

So unless you are the first one then your dog will have issues you don't like. And the odds of increasing those issues are greater in very tight breedings. But as mentioned the good likely will show strongly too if they share that.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby ezzy333 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:29 pm

mountaindogs wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The perfect dog has yet to be bred.

Yes exactly. That's why I chose that very word. Because NO dog is so you meed to really look at the dogs and be honest and be prepared.

So unless you are the first one then your dog will have issues you don't like. And the odds of increasing those issues are greater in very tight breedings. But as mentioned the good likely will show strongly too if they share that.

I have in the past bred several litters from mom/son or dad/daughter breeding. It is a wonderful ways to tighten up the genetics and get the uniformity you need in a line. Best advice is only with a good dog and only once and then outcross. Been an awful lot of good dogs produced like that and every breed was developed with just that kind of breeding.

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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Wyndancer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:47 am

Now, I realize we're talking Llews here, and they are all inbred to heck, but the OP hasn't even touched on whether the dam is really wound up (as far as COI goes), or the sire to the daddy puppy either. And whether or not the mating that produced the daddy puppy is a high COI mating.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:00 am

Wyndancer wrote:Now, I realize we're talking Llews here, and they are all inbred to heck, but the OP hasn't even touched on whether the dam is really wound up (as far as COI goes), or the sire to the daddy puppy either. And whether or not the mating that produced the daddy puppy is a high COI mating.


That's a real good point. If the breeding is coming from out crosses it should be less of a concern.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby shags » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:47 am

Guys, the COI stuff would be pertinent if the OP was planning a breeding, but this one is a done deal. Nothing for it except to move forward, unless one would like to run numbers for curiosity's sake.

We all know there are well known breeders, who if this were their litter and it produced nice pups, would be called a genius for the pairing; if the pups were not so much, they'd be still be sold and the breeding not repeated.

Hopefully the OP has learned a lesson about keeping a close eye on his bytch's cycles, and now understands that dogs will do what dogs do without regard to their family trees.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Fester » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:33 am

I guess I done OK here, I really can't think of any bad traits in either dog, I would not have bred her at all this year but people are already teling me they want a pup out of this cross so I won't have any trouble getting rid of the pups
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Fester » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:38 am

If you register them you should genetically test any who will not be spayed or nuetered to be sure sure that they are out of those two dogs since you probably didn't witness the breeding.


This should not be a problem since we have to DNA every dog we breed
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Wyndancer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:43 am

Shags, the point I was trying to get across is that sometimes a mother x son breeding isn't as "tight" as people knee jerk to.

For the OP....the genie is out of the bottle, good, bad or average.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:11 pm

Close line breeding can bring out both the good and the bad. Recessive genes will emerge through line breeding that's why Bob Wehle had to cull his lines for many years to rid him of flawed recessive genes.

The horse is out of the barn but you need that info if you get the idea you want to try that again on purpose.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Tyler S » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:14 pm

You will be ok. Somebody stated one time then outcross. It's done with cows,dogs, etc. it's no telling how much it happens with wild animals. Some breeders (like Mr. Bob) breed really tight lines. Sorry I couldn't help but to post the pic :D you won't have to worry about this!
Image
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:26 pm

Tyler S wrote:You will be ok. Somebody stated one time then outcross. It's done with cows,dogs, etc. it's no telling how much it happens with wild animals. Some breeders (like Mr. Bob) breed really tight lines. Sorry I couldn't help but to post the pic :D you won't have to worry about this!
Image


I like that boy!!! Is that "Turtle Mans" dog? :lol: :lol:
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Saddle » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:38 pm

mountaindogs wrote:My opinion (and I am rarely so harsh) is that you have messed up big time and you are bringing puppies into the world with a potential disadvantage rather than planning the litter carefully. Are both dogs perfect? If not you can expect that the things you dislike will be even more extreme but possibly the things you like too. Things both good and bad will be magnified. You will have a harder time placing these puppies for any decent amount of money, but still owe them full and proper care which will likely cost more than you will get. If you register them you should genetically test any who will not be spayed or nuetered to be sure sure that they are out of those two dogs since you probably didn't witness the breeding. You also need to be prepared to be extra good at socializing to combat any potential disadvantage they may have from say the compounding of very soft attitudes or aggression or any other slight tendancy the parents may have. Cleft pallet, deafness, heart issues and other congenital risks are increased since the odds are higher that if one is a carrier... so is the other.
All that said, what's done is done and all you can do now is take the responsibility to heart, raise the litter th best you can, place them in good well informed homes and hope you get lucky and get mostly good stuff. But be prepared in case you don't.



Sorry but this is garbage.

I did a full littermate brother sister breeding two years ago and we had 3 field trial winners out of 5 pups. I had no issues with extra socializing or any of that nonsense. I raised them up just like any other litter and they were nice pups in every way. I sold them all with no problems. They didn't produce a horseback dog (which is what I was after) but by no means were they culls. Here's the thing with such a tight cross. YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO CULL THE BAD ONES. No exceptions. Keep your good ones and the pups with defects need to go by the wayside.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Georgia Boy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:10 pm

Saddle wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:My opinion (and I am rarely so harsh) is that you have messed up big time and you are bringing puppies into the world with a potential disadvantage rather than planning the litter carefully. Are both dogs perfect? If not you can expect that the things you dislike will be even more extreme but possibly the things you like too. Things both good and bad will be magnified. You will have a harder time placing these puppies for any decent amount of money, but still owe them full and proper care which will likely cost more than you will get. If you register them you should genetically test any who will not be spayed or nuetered to be sure sure that they are out of those two dogs since you probably didn't witness the breeding. You also need to be prepared to be extra good at socializing to combat any potential disadvantage they may have from say the compounding of very soft attitudes or aggression or any other slight tendancy the parents may have. Cleft pallet, deafness, heart issues and other congenital risks are increased since the odds are higher that if one is a carrier... so is the other.
All that said, what's done is done and all you can do now is take the responsibility to heart, raise the litter th best you can, place them in good well informed homes and hope you get lucky and get mostly good stuff. But be prepared in case you don't.



Sorry but this is garbage.

I did a full littermate brother sister breeding two years ago and we had 3 field trial winners out of 5 pups. I had no issues with extra socializing or any of that nonsense. I raised them up just like any other litter and they were nice pups in every way. I sold them all with no problems. They didn't produce a horseback dog (which is what I was after) but by no means were they culls. Here's the thing with such a tight cross. YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO CULL THE BAD ONES. No exceptions. Keep your good ones and the pups with defects need to go by the wayside.


I am a huge proponent of line breeding if you are starting with better than average dogs. Your point about culling is 100% correct. The problem is 99.9% of folks are not going to do it, heck they are the ones trying to save sickly pups at all cost.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:34 pm

Because of ALL the animal rights people we have in this country culling pups & dogs is not looked upon very well & can get you in trouble.I think that's the biggest reason so many are against that close of breedings,if you do cull just do it & keep your mouth shut about it & don't have any witnesses!! :roll:
Good Luck with the litter & everyone needs to remember dogs are NOT people.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Wyndancer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:59 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Good Luck with the litter & everyone needs to remember dogs are NOT people.


I'm interested in this.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby mountaindogs » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:41 pm

I agree with well thought out line breeding. Agree some amazing dogs are from very tight breedings. Even agree that this tight is not unheard of and that I have seen it several times. But there are millions of dogs in this country and not all of them are amazing. In fact very few of them are, which is why some folks on here are so proud of their awesome dogs.
Responsible breeders ALWAYS prepare for problems and socialize well, so it changes little. As stated, line breeding increases the odds of BOTH good and bad extremes. If you do not plan and know the bads of your lines, and look at your own dogs with a critical eye, "culling" is useless. But then sometimes it takes the line breeding to see the bad.
I have know several folks who had dogs of varying quality that bred back to a parent. In one results were not so good, despite the parents both being VERY nice dogs and fully health tested. In another the litter was small but a couple of puppies were pretty good and two were terrible. In another it was the foundation for a very nice solid kennel. In another half the litter had partial blindness that both parents were carriers of, but the breeder had not realized. Still even one of those partially blind puppies won some trials early on in puppy stakes.
I DO wish you the best with litter and I imagine if you love them and work with them you will have some nice puppies.
I hope that if any are NOT fine, be it simply less instinct or drive or something more problamatic, that you are prepared and do what's best for the puppy, whatever that may be.
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:52 pm

Wyndancer "I'm interested in this" meaning what??
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby mtlhdr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:53 pm

I don't have any experience to add but wonder how long before you know a pup is fine (or not), aside from obvious physical deformities?
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:05 pm

mtlhdr wrote:I don't have any experience to add but wonder how long before you know a pup is fine (or not), aside from obvious physical deformities?

Most pups are fine for something and just because a sporting dog won't hunt it is not worthless. Granted, it should not remain in the breeding pool but it may be the greatest house pet in the world.

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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Wyndancer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:51 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Wyndancer "I'm interested in this" meaning what??


Were you comparing marrying your niece to a canine breeding of uncle x niece? That one was worse from a genetic standpoint than the other? Or even mother x son?
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Re: I think i've messed up big time

Postby Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:56 am

I wasn't but some do look as dogs or animals being equal to humans.They seem to forget that animals don't know the difference & these kind of breedings take place in nature quite often.
The fact is until all the laws that have been passed dogs used to run around the neighborhood freely & when a female was in season every male in that neighborhood bred her,siblings or not.
Many of those pups were also culled one way or the other while others became pets or neighborhood dogs.
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