Introducing a Dog to birds

[TheLukai1100]

I have a 16 week Gsp puppy that I would like to introduce to birds, I have read methods on how to introduce birds. But what method do you use?
And What do i do if my dog doesn't point?

[Saddle]

I like to use a pigeon pole with young pups like yours. Just don't let your pup catch a bird. If he doesn't point it the first couple of times I wouldn't worry too much. If he won't point a bird after the 6th or 7th go then I might be concerned a little. He's a pup and if he's bred well he'll do what he's supposed to do.

[S&J gsp]

Well at 16 weeks toss a quail out and let the pup out let him find it on his own don't say or do anything just let him do whatever he wants if he points good if he picks it up and eats it good well you get the picture at 16 weeks it don't matter what he does with the bird. Before you toss it out for him pull all the feathers off one wing so it don't fly off once I do that once or twice I use loose birds and just let them hunt find bump chase catch about 6 or 8 times of that they start pointing without help. Once they start pointing I try to flush the birds for them than use a blank gun when in full chase once I can blank over them I shoot a few birds for them. At that point I start teaching here and whoa but not till they are bird crazy you can't have a bird dog that don't like birds.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I use the Hickox method. http://www.georgehickox.com
Begin with a lock wing pigeon, and encourage the pup to pick up the bird. Be upbeat, but give the pup a chance to learn. The lock wing bird can't flap or otherwise intimidate the pup. Once the pup will pick up a lock wing, toss out a clip wing pigeon. Next a flyer. Allow the pup to chase the flyer. When he learns that he can't catch the bird he'll return. Have a lock wing on the ground, and he'll pick it up when he returns. Don't make a big deal out of retrieving, and don't be too hasty in taking the bird away from him. Do this in stages with several short sessions. Always leave him wanting more The dog will anticipate more birds after the first session.

Nate

[RayGubernat]

There are tons of ways to introduce a puppy to birds. On of my favorites involves a pigeon and an old sock.

as to your second question...if the puppy does not point... I say...SO WHAT???

A puppy sight pointing at 16 weeks says something about its genetics, but so does sight pointing a butterfly ro bee or a piece of rag on the end of a fishing rod. it is a photo op and something for you. Means very little to the dog.

I would be much more concerned if the puppy avoids a bird or pays no attention to it. At that age, I want to see a dog attack a bird. I don''t care if the pup mauls it or even tears it apart.

Pointing dogs have been bred to point for a couple hundred years. They will point. An increasing number of dogs have been bred for how they look, their color, their temperament, their cooperativeness. I want to see a pointing dog that wants to kill something. The best bird dogs are apex predators. They kill stuff, but we train them to kill stuff for US.

RayG

[birddog1968]

I would be much more concerned if the puppy avoids a bird or pays no attention to it. At that age, I want to see a dog attack a bird. I don''t care if the pup mauls it or even tears it apart.


RayG

+1 my thoughts exactly.....plant in light cover and let him bump and chase or catch and maul it. A few quail is what i'd want to use, strong flyers or not, really doesn't matter.

[Saddle]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

[smittty]

I always start by putting a half dozen young pen raised quail ..I put the birds all together the bring in the pup i let him catch eat, chace... anything he want to with the birds first time

[gotpointers]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

+1

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

So in that are you saying your dog does not retrieve birds?

Nate

[Elkhunter]

I let all my young dogs chase and catch birds, a few birds caught at 3 months old is not going to set anyone back. And I am developing dogs for FT's also.

Young dogs take some time to put it all together, my pointer looked like crap on birds for the first year. Now he looks like a rock star, just let me be puppies. Also once I intro them to a few pigeons I try to limit their experience with birds after that to wild birds. Which has worked well for me.

[RayGubernat]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

So in that are you saying your dog does not retrieve?

Nate

Nate -

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM???

If that last gem was an attempt at humor... YOU FAILED. I for one did not find it in the least humorous.


Maybe we should start asking you things like: When did you stop abusing your dogs?? OR How long do you hang your dog by the wonder lead??

If you are looking for a fight...you most certainly will find one...and you will lose.

Quit being a ballbuster or I will take it up with the owner of the board. Or you can leave.

RayG

[millerms06]

The main premise of an introduction to birds at this stage is to increase the dog's prey drive and overall boldness. While it is neat to see a dog point a bird, searching relentlessly for them is far more important at your pup's point in time. What I like to do is show the bird to the pup, while I am holding the bird, let it smell the bird, and create some excitement within the pup after a nose full of scent is established. Quail are great birds for this phase because they are smaller than any other bird, and chirp a ton when you hold them. The chirping is another added trigger helping pup's decision to want the bird. While the pup is either on a stakeout or someone holds the dog on a leash, I walk away from the pup and go towards some cover fifty or so yards away from the pup. Between me and the pup there is no cover, I want the dog to see me the whole time until I reach cover. I plant the quail, and hopefully by now the pup is chomping at the bit to be released. The pup is let go and you just observe the pup's actions and that is it. I do this a few times until the dog starts chasing flushed birds, and reestablishing the bird's new location. When this happens I then start planting birds where the pup doesn't see me and has to search to find them. When I reach to this point, I wet the birds just before I plant them to create more scent. Blanks can be used when you reach this phase because the pup will already be chasing them when they flush.

[cmc274]

Threads are always better with photos and even better with video (click on image, its a video). Mo teased this pup up with a couple of pigeons in similar manner and let them fly off before I took this short video. Aint a thing wrong with letting a pup catch a bird or two, dont matter what kind of dog your trying to develop. That one in the video will hopefully run an AA prairie derby or two this year.



http://s1140.photobucket.com/user/cmc27 ... e.mp4.html

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

So in that are you saying your dog does not retrieve?

Nate

Nate -

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM???

If that last gem was an attempt at humor... YOU FAILED. I for one did not find it in the least humorous.


Maybe we should start asking you things like: When did you stop abusing your dogs?? OR How long do you hang your dog by the wonder lead??

If you are looking for a fight...you most certainly will find one...and you will lose.

Quit being a ballbuster or I will take it up with the owner of the board. Or you can leave.

RayG

This was a very specific question. Not intended as humor or an insult. Some people don't let their pointers retrieve birds. But if they do, the dog needs to learn how to handle cripples. Now lower your hackles Ray. Geez.

Nate

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I'm not a fan of letting pups catch birds. I'm also not trying to develop the same kind of dog most people here are though either.

Ok, I admit that my previous question could have been worded much better.

Please elaborate on your comment.

Nate

[markj]

I put a dozen quail in a cage at the age your pup is, let cage rest on floor, let pup find it. The smell will draw him in, let him sniff em as often as he wants. Then move out to the field and the fun really starts. I try to not let pup catch and kill but it will happen so dont get upset over it. Made me some fine bird dogs this way.

[birddogger]

Intro birds anyway you want. The puppy sees, smells birds and gets excited. IMO, it is just that simple.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

Intro birds anyway you want. The puppy sees, smells birds and gets excited. IMO, it is just that simple.

Charlie

Right on! Something I never even thought of let alone worry about it. Many times the first bird they see is a robin.

Ezzy

[markj]

Many times the first bird they see is a robin.

My dogs watch all birds even high flyers. Anything that moves fast, they are on it. Prey drive makes them do it.

[birddog1968]

When I think of Introducing a young pup to birds, my mind goes to teaching a love of feathers, feathers in the mouth.

Heck all pups watch, chase, flash point robins and butterflies.....

[gotpointers]

When I think of Introducing a young pup to birds, my mind goes to teaching a love of feathers, feathers in the mouth.

.
I do my lab's that way too.

Heck all pups watch, chase, flash point robins and butterflies.....

They also learn they can't catch them and when they get too close the fun ends in a flush. So why reverse that by letting a pup catch and maul? When they are steady enough for me to load my gun, flush the bird, and shoot it then we can think about feathers in the mouth.

[birddog1968]

When I think of Introducing a young pup to birds, my mind goes to teaching a love of feathers, feathers in the mouth.

.
I do my lab's that way too.

Heck all pups watch, chase, flash point robins and butterflies.....

They also learn they can't catch them and when they get too close the fun ends in a flush. So why reverse that by letting a pup catch and maul? When they are steady enough for me to load my gun, flush the bird, and shoot it then we can think about feathers in the mouth.

a 10-13 week old puppy won't remember any of that, except he loves feathers, when he's 8-9 months old and beginning formal training. Every pointing dog I've ever owned Ive even pulled quail legs and fed them on the way back to the truck. Ive never made a flusher out of a pointing dog or a bird eater....they flat out only remember they love birds. It's something i do with their first 2 quail, not continuously up until formal training starts......

This latest pup is maybe a year in this picture, not forced yet (she's 3 now and not forced) NEVER has she tried to eat a bird or flush a bird after starting her....she carries nicely and birds come back unharmed as you can see in the picture. She caught and killed/roughed up her first 3 quail and was fed legs, was allowed to flash point and flush her first 6 chuckar, then she was green broke using around 30 unharmed/unshot homing pigeons. She went to the upper midwest for 2 months and hunted on Prairie Chickens and Phez.... She is now STWSF.

So much for pointers, horseback bred pointers at that, not retrieving naturally.....

[S&J gsp]

The only thing that counts is getting them around birds no matter what kind of birds. About 15 years ago I bought a brittany that at 7 months old had nothing done with her the first bird spooked her and it took 18 months to get her pointing. She would reterive to hand and liked the gun. She would hunt dead and everything else long story short it took a crippled phesant wing slapping and putting his spurs in her a few times to make her a birddog. Looking back if I would have let catch the first few her training would have been alot easier on both of us.

[Saddle]

nate to answer your question no my dogs don't get to retrieve 99 percent of the time. I also am I field trialer and not a bird killer. I will say this. I have a good buddy in Joplin who was after me about running in their club trials which are a nstra format. I took a horseback dog over because she was the only one I felt would handle off foot. Never retrieved a bird in her life. 5 years old. After her initial 1000 yard blast through the 10 acre spot she came in and found 6 with 6 good retrieves. The good ones are natural Nate. They do things naturally. My dogshave zero need to handle a cripple . They are never going to encounter that in what we do.

And I don't care what anyone says an intelligent pup will remember catching birds.

[RayGubernat]

nate to answer your question no my dogs don't get to retrieve 99 percent of the time. I also am I field trialer and not a bird killer. I will say this. I have a good buddy in Joplin who was after me about running in their club trials which are a nstra format. I took a horseback dog over because she was the only one I felt would handle off foot. Never retrieved a bird in her life. 5 years old. After her initial 1000 yard blast through the 10 acre spot she came in and found 6 with 6 good retrieves. The good ones are natural Nate. They do things naturally. My dogshave zero need to handle a cripple . They are never going to encounter that in what we do.

And I don't care what anyone says an intelligent pup will remember catching birds.

I do let a very young puppy(8-12) mess with a bird, or two... but that is about all. I want to awaken the desire that I know is in there and get a handle on just how bold a dog is around birds. I do not let it continue to mess with birds as it gets older. Once a pup is to the stage where it can kill a bird, I will not allow that to happen. Any birds it encounters...will fly away if it gets too close. I also trial and with pointers a retrieve is not required, so I train my dogs to stand through wing, shot and fall without breaking...and then I go and pick up the bird myself ad bring it back to the still standing dog. THEN I release. Maybe the dog gets the birds head...maybe not.

It must be understood that I get the boldest, most bird crazy puppies I can find, from the hottest field trial blood I can. They come out of the birth canal with more fire and desire that I will ever be able to use. Not all bird dogs are like that and some may need a little help to awaken the killer that is inside them. You need to do what is right for the dog.

I very much prefer to keep the retrieve as the last trick in my trainer's bag. When a dog has gotten stale on planted birds and starts getting sloppy or losing style and intensity...which can and does happen... allowing an old campaigner to retrieve a bird now and then can really sharpen them up. It can be a PIA to hunt a trial dog and keep them in trial trim, because that does take away from the enjoyment of the hunt, but it is well worth it, because it reignites the fire in their belly. They are, after all...predators.

I have been messing with trial bred pointers for a while and I have never had one that flat would not retrieve, even though they were, in many cases, trained to "refrain' from retrieving. Some were better than others, but they all wanted to wrap their gums around a bird.

There was a field trial washout I obtained whose spirit was damaged by her trainer actively discouraging the dog from diving in. It seems he gave her a high hard one with electricity when she went in after a few quail. I could never get that dog to retrieve quail for the rest of her life. I let her break at flush, and she got her style back and she would point them both alive and dead. I was fine with that. Still am actually. When I can't bend over and pick up a dead bird off the ground, it is time for me to quit. Interestingly, she would, in her later years, bring back a chuckar or pheasant just fine...but never a quail. I can still see her first retrieve. it was a chucker that I winged and apparently put also put one pellet in the head. it came down and started flopping around on the ground. Bell stood over t for about three seconds and then just couldn't stand it anymore and grabbed it. I called her to me, petted her and let her carry it a while. The stone dead birds, she would still, very often, just point dead. But the live ones she would bring back fairly frequently if her bracemate didn't get to them first.

As far as tracking cripples and such, I have found that if you "make" your dogs find birds that are downed...they will. Most pointers that I have been around want to find and point birds, but once the sound of the shot fades, they want to be off and running to find another bird. They LOVE to run and point. If, however, you "make" the dog hunt dead and make them understand that they ain't goin' nowhere until they come up with that bird, it is amazing how quickly they apply themselves to the task.

Many different schools of thought, and most of them are right...for the kind of dog that the individual owner prefers. Not all dogs are created equal and that is a good thing because not all owners want the same things out of their dogs.

RayG

[tailcrackin]

Daddy always said, "its not what you do, but how you do it."

When you have a dog, and you put the bird in your hand, and let dog mess with, and or toss for it, and then let it get it.
You have opened a door of excitement, and desire, for the dog.......you also, got the dog to want to pick up, be less intimidated, be able to allow the dog success of the retrieve, allow the dog to enjoy, and like you.

When, you get a bird, and dizzy it, and plant it. That puts everything, in a whole different perspective, between the dog and bird. When they are smelling and pointing, and dive in an get a bird turd, you make create, a lil more work for yourself. its the situation, you put the dog into, that can allow boogers to arise. Look at the pic Chris put up, with Maurice. The demonstration for the dog, is pretty simple, if you let it be. Thanks Jonesy

[Saddle]

I put all of my youngsters on a chain and let them watch older started dogs. That's enough to get them thinking birds. Then I get them off and its their turn. If I had to do some gimmicky stuff with a pup to fire him up about birds he wouldnt be in my kennel long.

[birddog1968]

nate to answer your question no my dogs don't get to retrieve 99 percent of the time. I also am I field trialer and not a bird killer. I will say this. I have a good buddy in Joplin who was after me about running in their club trials which are a nstra format. I took a horseback dog over because she was the only one I felt would handle off foot. Never retrieved a bird in her life. 5 years old. After her initial 1000 yard blast through the 10 acre spot she came in and found 6 with 6 good retrieves. The good ones are natural Nate. They do things naturally. My dogshave zero need to handle a cripple . They are never going to encounter that in what we do.

And I don't care what anyone says an intelligent pup will remember catching birds.

I guess all my dogs are dumb

[Chukar12]

I believe the people that get the most out of a forum like this are those that are astute enough to recognize experience. The most difficult training obstacle is a dog that is not obsessed with birds, in my opinion that can happen two ways already described in various ways here here.

It must be understood that I get the boldest, most bird crazy puppies I can find, from the hottest field trial blood I can.

Secondly, an imprinting stage occurs with young dogs that is important. Their confidence with birds and environment as a puppy is reflective later as they mature. A puppy in a field like the one in the video with Mo is gaining experience that is very natural to a dog/predator. Mastery over prey. I think problems are created with many dogs and by many on the boards with excessive yard work and obedience, too often and too early. You cannot expect to take a whole bunch of the wild out early and see it back in later; it is especially hard if as ray described your blood just isn't that hot. I paint with a broad brush here, and many will dispute it with examples of their 12 week old whoa broke dog that turned out to be the best hunter in Skookum county.

Your dual bred Brittany may not have the same prey drive and point as somebody's Miller pointer. It is your job to recognize what the pup needs early to be a predator, without that making a hunting dog later is a lot more difficult.

[birddog1968]

Great post Chukar12

[Maurice]

Great post Chukar12

Plus 1

Mo

[ezzy333]

I believe the people that get the most out of a forum like this are those that are astute enough to recognize experience. The most difficult training obstacle is a dog that is not obsessed with birds, in my opinion that can happen two ways already described in various ways here here.

It must be understood that I get the boldest, most bird crazy puppies I can find, from the hottest field trial blood I can.

Secondly, an imprinting stage occurs with young dogs that is important. Their confidence with birds and environment as a puppy is reflective later as they mature. A puppy in a field like the one in the video with Mo is gaining experience that is very natural to a dog/predator. Mastery over prey. I think problems are created with many dogs and by many on the boards with excessive yard work and obedience, too often and too early. You cannot expect to take a whole bunch of the wild out early and see it back in later; it is especially hard if as ray described your blood just isn't that hot. I paint with a broad brush here, and many will dispute it with examples of their 12 week old whoa broke dog that turned out to be the best hunter in Skookum county.

Your dual bred Brittany may not have the same prey drive and point as somebody's Miller pointer. It is your job to recognize what the pup needs early to be a predator, without that making a hunting dog later is a lot more difficult.

So very very true. But it is a point that is often argued when I suggest little training other than house manners till a pup is older. No. 1 ingredient I want in a puppy growing up is independence and that doesn't come with a robot.

Ezzy

[polmaise]

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

nate to answer your question no my dogs don't get to retrieve 99 percent of the time. I also am I field trialer and not a bird killer. I will say this. I have a good buddy in Joplin who was after me about running in their club trials which are a nstra format. I took a horseback dog over because she was the only one I felt would handle off foot. Never retrieved a bird in her life. 5 years old. After her initial 1000 yard blast through the 10 acre spot she came in and found 6 with 6 good retrieves. The good ones are natural Nate. They do things naturally. My dogshave zero need to handle a cripple . They are never going to encounter that in what we do.


And I don't care what anyone says an intelligent pup will remember catching birds.

I guess all my dogs are dumb

Mine too. Seems I have to teach them everything.

All kidding aside. I think that's really more an argument for imprinting than intelligence. All dogs learn by imprinting, and the most impressionable stage seems to be the first 20 weeks. The need to have a pup handle a high number of birds is certainly debatable, and I can appreciate not wanting to send the wrong message to a pointing dog. You don't necessarily need or may not want them to flush or to retrieve crippled birds. However, with a flushing dog you do, and that's the greatest difference between starting the two. I think this challenge is what makes it so interesting to work with all gun dog breeds.

Nate