Questions about guiding

[RobGSP]

There must be a shortage of guides in my area, I say this because I have been asked if I would be interested in guiding bird hunts by a couple preserves in my area. This is not meant as a brag, my dogs are good dogs but not perfect. I have guided family members often and have done a bunch of solo hunting but have never guided strangers. I do have some apprehensions regarding safety but I would love some input from any of you that have guided some hunts. One of the preserve owners was sharing his perspective on guiding as it pertained to keeping the hunt safe and also making it enjoyable. He said that all his clients want to find birds but that some guides did better than others and that it had everything to do with how they structured the whole hunt. Any way, I would love to hear some advice.

[Steve007]

If everyone you guide is safe and non-excitable, it would be a good idea. But such is not the case.

The Good News; your dog will get work on birds for free and you will even get some tips.
The Bad News: your dog could get killed, and you arrested for assault shortly afterwards.

I had a similar offer some years ago. Thought about it and said no. The downside was too horrible. You may be of a different view. I'm sure it works well for some. I try not to bet more than i can afford to lose.

[RayGubernat]

I did a bit of guiding at a preserve some years ago. I don't anymore.

Most of the parties I guided were nice folks who were just out for a good time. There was one party that had six fellows in it, but they were all willing to take turns and it worked out fine. I guided for them several times and never had an issue.

I only had one problem with one party and it was very quickly resolved. Once they understood it was my way or they would be hunting without dogs while I watched them from the top of the hill, they came right around.

I only guided for pheasant or chuckar...never for quail. Too many low flyers to chance it. My dogs were staunch, not steady, so they were off with the flush of the bird. I had a little routine before the start of each hunt. I explained that my dogs would be chasing the flushed birds, so if there was not blue sky under the bird's feet there was no shot. Also If I called " No Shot" there better not be one. Lastly I insisted that only two gunners MAXIMUM shoot ant any one bird and that everyone would rotate and get their chances.

There are a lot of nice folks out there that simply do not have the ability to get and keep a trained bird dog for one or two hunts per year, but who really enjoy gunning over one and are willing to pay for the opportunity.


RayG

[Chukar12]

I have done a fair bit of guiding, some upland but more big game and calling turkeys years ago, Ray touches on something critical. Guiding is a business, and should be treated as such. You really must be clear in establishing parameters for people to operate under. Too many of us engaged in hunting are overcome by the thrill or high of the shot and the kill rather than the process of the hunt. As a big game guide the first order of business was to establish the guidelines for taking a shot...I will spare the details of angle, movement, uphill, downhill, etc...and focus on the simpler metric of distance. A number of us will claim out and out proficiency of marksmanship at 400 yards or more. Two thirds of the hunters that arrived in camp for the first time could not put three shots in an 8 inch kill zone at that distance. More than half that proclaimed their prowess ended up using our guns and were limited to two hundred yards because we couldn't get them or their weapons right to risk longer shots. Why is this relevant?

It's touchier with dogs...before I ever considered field trials I broke dogs to wing, shot and fall, because two of my dogs under x ray had pellets in them...I don't know how or when but they were there. Adrenaline does strange things to folks, and a 25 dollar, over fed, pen raised pheasant can cost you a dog if you don't do your best to control the environment. You don't know who you get when you are guiding, and therefore you have to be the boss. You have to communicate, observe and supervise, if you don't you risk a mistake that can never be undone.

[Tyler S]

Your basically are going to have 2 kinds of people.... Hunters and shooters. I don't know about the preserve your hunting, but they should also have a dog contract in their waiver. Way to much to type. Check your PMs

Ray your spot on, great advise!

[birddog1968]

Ray's advise is sound.

You gotta be personable but firm, and when needed lay down the law for everyones safety. You also need to try and see problems before they happen and be able to diplomatically give
instruction when needed. I've had some real close calls but a majority of folks are great to guide and if your personable are happy to learn and take advise on how best to do things for safety's sake.


Planting your birds and making a hunt go as naturally as possible is something that's going to come with time, having good , high drive, obedient dogs is whats going to get a large hunt done
in the allotted amount of time. Any dog can hunt 10 birds in a couple hours. But your dog/s gotta be game ON to do 30-40 or 50 birds in 3 hours, so you can get the afternoon group in the field or done by dark.

I do know of a couple people who've had dogs killed or wounded/ruined guiding, and i know of two others guides shot badly. One in the face (who cannot hunt anymore really) and another shot in the behind and back of the legs at close range. So you HAVE to be careful, alert and vigilant. That said its personable, and efficient that brings the tips. Ive had poor folks tip me GREAT and wealthy folks tip very poorly and visa versa....never can tell.

[jimbo&rooster]

I have guided a couple of times, mostly though I deal with "guiding" buddies a lot.

I have a few simple rules.....

rule #1 DON'T SHOOT MY DOG!

rule #2 DON'T SHOOT ME!

rule #3 IF YOU BREAK RULE #1 BE PREPARED TO BREAK RULE #2!

Jim

[Munster]

Your basically are going to have 2 kinds of people.... Hunters and shooters. I don't know about the preserve your hunting, but they should also have a dog contract in their waiver. Way to much to type. Check your PMs

Ray your spot on, great advise!

I want to know about the dog contracts. Please

[birddog1968]

Its simply a comment on the release of liability that most preserves make clients sign that says if you shoot a dog it'll cost x amount of dollars, 3 to 5000 usually.


Good luck getting a release of liability paper to hold up in court tho.....



On the op's questions, its really a matter of experience, and having nothing bad happen until you've see enough hunts go off that you know what to do when to do it , how to do things.....

Like where to stand, where to make clients flush birds, how you initially instruct them as to the best way to get birds up without them running off. Deciding do i need to take a knee beside the dog
and hold its collar, how to plant birds, hard plant, soft plant, liberated where to plant and how to loop thru the fields to make things come off natural as possible, when to chase a missed bird and get it repointed, when to let a flushed bird have time to sit, how to handle runners.......the list is endless and with common sense and experience you develop your own thinking and ways of handling things.

[rinker]

This may not be a concern to the op, but doesn't guiding (and getting paid for it) mean that you are no longer an amateur for the purpose of American Field, field trials?

[Fester]

i guide about 3 months a year it is good for the dogs for sure, it is also dangerous at times, most ppl are fun to take out then there is the small percentage who are a@@#$%^$,, I had a guy shoot a bird on the ground 1 foot in front of a pointed dog last year, so believe me they are out there, I think the thing is protect youself and know up front things are going to happen in front of your dogs that are unaccepable, so you need a dog that can roll with it
Fester

[Chukar12]

This may not be a concern to the op, but doesn't guiding (and getting paid for it) mean that you are no longer an amateur for the purpose of American Field, field trials?

AFTCA is probably what you are referring to... here are their rules

Definition of Professional and Amateur

Section 1. Any person who receives or has received, either directly or indirectly, compensation for training or handling dogs (including handling of dogs on a plantation or shooting preserve) other than his own or those of an immediate family member, is not an amateur. Any amateur who handles a dog not solely owned and registered in his name or in the name of a member of his immediate family, who is awarded a placement for such dog’s performance shall waive payment or any division of the cash purse or shall lose his amateur status. The funds waived shall remain the property of the Club.


Reinstatement to Amateur Status

Section 4. Any person who is an admitted professional; or who has been declared to be a professional by this Corporation; or any person who has been barred from competition in amateur events because of professionalism; if he has not violated either the letter or spirit of Section 1 of this Article for three (3) years, may qualify as an amateur handler in the following manner:

(a) Such individual may request, in writing, a hearing by the Board of Trustees, so that his status may be definitely established. Such individual must accompany the request with a statement and evidence supporting his claim that he is an amateur, as defined by these Regulations and shall prove his claim in the manner and procedure set forth in Section 3 of this Article.
(b) If such a request is filed by an individual who has been barred from competition in an amateur event, the Secretary shall notify the President and Secretary of the active member club which barred him, and request that they provide, in proper form for presentation to the Board of Trustees, evidence on which their action was based.
(c) If a majority of the Board of Trustees finds that the petitioner is entitled to amateur status, petitioner shall be declared to be an amateur and the Secretary shall notify him and other interested parties of the Board’s decision.



AKC says payment for the training of a hunting dog or payment for handling a dog in field trials

[rinker]

OK, I guess I was wrong, thank you for the clarification.

[dan v]

Section 1. Any person who receives or has received, either directly or indirectly, compensation for training or handling dogs (including handling of dogs on a plantation or shooting preserve) other than his own or those of an immediate family member, is not an amateur. Any amateur who handles a dog not solely owned and registered in his name or in the name of a member of his immediate family, who is awarded a placement for such dog’s performance shall waive payment or any division of the cash purse or shall lose his amateur status. The funds waived shall remain the property of the Club.

I'm startin' a new thread.

[dan v]

ARTICLE II
Definition of Professional and Amateur
Section 1. Any person who received or has received, either directly or indirectly,
compensation for training or handling dogs, including handling of dogs on a plantation or
shooting preserve, or any person who as an amateur handles a dog not solely owned and
registered in his name, or in the name of a member of his immediate family, upon being
awarded a placement for such dogs performance shall waive payment or any division of
the cash purse, or shall henceforth lose amateur status. The funds waived shall remain the
property of the Club.
Provided however this amended By Law shall not apply to any co-owned dog
registered in the Field Dog Stud Book on or before March 1, 1992.

[Donnytpburge]

I guide at a plantation,

I have had some close calls but luckily my dogs
And I have not been harmed.

If you decide to take the opportunity I would
Suggest you start out with some of the plantations
Guide dogs. Once you gain some experience start
Using your personal dogs.

Remember its a business, they are going to
Hunt in unfavorable wet conditions with planted
Birds, this is the most dangerous situation. Wet
Pen raised quail do not fly well, so the dogs quickly learn they
Can catch them. I always use the lodges dogs in those
Conditions.

Other than that have fun with it!