AKC Grand Field Champion Title

[RCB]

I just noticed that the AKC has a new title called Grand Field Champion (Gundog and All-Age, Amateur and Open). A dog can now win a championship title beyond the title field champion by winning these new stakes pitting already titled dogs against title dogs. Sounds like a new title being applied to limited stakes events. Here is the link form AKC:

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/field_ ... Titles.pdf

Sounds like a money making gimmick to me but wondering what others think about this new title and events, and will clubs actually run these in the future.

[jimbo&rooster]

Makes as much sense to run these stakes and persue another title as it does to run the same fc/afc dog in limited stakes just for grins......

Jim

[shags]

I think it's going to be difficult logistically in my area. Our grounds A) cost a fortune and B) are booked for trials every available weekend. Not many clubs can afford to sacrifice their regular stakes in order to run one like this; the entry fee would have to be pretty much doubled to make ends meet. But the big expense would probably discourage entries.

And, how much traveling would someone have to do to find enough of these stakes to earn the title?

I'd rather akc had implemented something like 2X, 3X etc FC or AFC; same requirements, simply do-overs. It would extend the careers of good dogs and demonstrate their durability over time, and would increase the level of competition without placing a burden on trial giving clubs.

[Chukar12]

I think it's going to be difficult logistically in my area. Our grounds A) cost a fortune and B) are booked for trials every available weekend. Not many clubs can afford to sacrifice their regular stakes in order to run one like this; the entry fee would have to be pretty much doubled to make ends meet. But the big expense would probably discourage entries. And, how much traveling would someone have to do to find enough of these stakes to earn the title? I'd rather akc had implemented something like 2X, 3X etc FC or AFC; same requirements, simply do-overs. It would extend the careers of good dogs and demonstrate their durability over time, and would increase the level of competition without placing a burden on trial giving clubs.

Plus 1

I think existing 1 hour stakes which in most cases are AA would have to be designated as Grand stakes to make it work, and this appears to cause some conflict in local breed clubs. We already have to close Gun Dog stakes off because there is not enough time. Extending stakes to an hour is a major logistical challenge...not to mention judges, horses, etc...

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

PLUS 100, time does not permit in most the trials we run in.Have a hard time finishing now unless they eliminate other stakes,don't see that happening.

[buckshot1]

Rather than weekend trials adding one hour stakes, it seems like the existing AF one hour trials would have to agree to dual register their trials with AF and AKC, just like some of the weekend trials who already dual register. I don't understand the point of the GFC title other than the AKC trying to make itself more relevant. If you want to prove that your FC can win an hour stake, you can go for a CH by running in AF championship stakes.

[buckshot1]

On a related note, why can't the AKC merge its pointing dog field trial operations into AF? Same goes for merging GSPCA, NGSPA, and NGPDA. Having recently registered my first field trial dog with all these organizations, I found getting all the paperwork/DNA/memberships in order for all these different organizations to be VERY confusing. Also, the different rules and regulations that are similar, but just different enough to get you, get confusing as well. It's another burden that discourages newcomers from participating in the sport. Maybe those who have participated longer than I have understand the process better, accept it for what it is, and aren't bothered by the competing and overlapping organizations. I do appreciate all the hard work that the volunteers of these organizations contribute and the opportunities that they provide, but I wonder what would happen if someone got the heads of all these organizations together in the same room with a really good mediator. I know this is slightly off topic, but the AKC GFC title is a good example of this overlapping of roles.

[ezzy333]

Sounds like a good idea to me though I think it will be hard to implement. But at least it is there for those that can use it and takes nothing away from those that can't or don't want to. Some win and no body loses. Darn good odds.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

I read the rules on these new stakes and I think it might be a good thing. The entry is not restricted to dogs that already have their FC/AFC, so essentially it is a one hour limited stake. I actually kinda like that. I hope it catches on, but I kinda doubt that it will. Might be a bit too much competition for many AKC trialers that are used to half hour stakes. There is a HUGE difference between handling a dog and keeping it clean for a half hour and doing it for a full hour.

The big thing for me is that they are one hour stakes, which is the biggest flaw in the existing AKC system of evaluating dogs in field competition.

IMO, if a dog can't go for a half hour, anywhere, anytime... it is time to find a couch for the dog to lay on or a shovel to bury it with. A dog that can go for a full hour, in the heat, in the cold, in the mud, in the heavy cover... is a dog with heart and with grit. A dog that can go for a full hour in tough conditions and do it right deserves to be called champion.

RayG

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I like the Hr stakes but I don't think it's likely to put on both at the same trial just don't have the extra time in the trials we normally run in.That's why we have & run the HR AF CH.
If a club can pull them both off at the same trial I'm all for it but don't see many clubs doing it.

[The Zephyr]

I believe the AKC is looking for some sort of reciprocity for the existing dual sanctioned events. Which is fine.

[cmc274]

If you're all about running as many dogs in as many stakes in a weekend, probably isn't for you and your club. For some reason folks feel the need to run their dogs in every open, amateur and limited stake available. Reduce the number of stakes and make one an hour. We're going to run an hour stake in December. In the akc world, it starts to separate the folks that are serious and those that aren't pretty quick.

[jetjockey]

As a Brit guy, Im all for it. Since many of our trials already have 1Hr AA and GD Trials, it's a win win. The nice thing is there is absolutely no requirement for clubs to run a 1hr trial, so if a club doesn't want to, they don't have to offer it. But if they want to, there is now incentive to do it. There's a lot of FC's out there that can't compete for an hour. Why not allow the ones who can, stand out?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I agree on the HR stakes but we already have AF HR CH to run plus Nat's etc & I think if you start eliminating stakes it might be puppy & or derby stakes & that not good for the newB getting started.
Wouldn't be good to eliminate Amt stakes either,if you want to eliminate Limited stakes I have no problem with that but still running an hr in place of those stakes is going to take more time then
the a lot of clubs have.I guess if the club normally has a small turn out would be no problem but most the trial we attend have a hard time getting in all the 1/2 stakes.The entry fees might have to go up also to cover
for the 1/2 hr stakes they eliminate.Entry fees are already getting up there.

[shags]

If the open limited or open all age is eliminated, where do your pros put their dogs that might not be ready for an hour? Are pros going to support a trial where all they have is open gun dog, or maybe just all age? If amateur stakes are eliminated, how do you grow your base of support?

On our grounds clubs generally run two concurrent 1/2 hour courses. Doing the hour stake means eliminating not only the stake that's being replaced, but any stake(s) on the other course as well.

Might work to run the Grands as a bookend day stake, but that's more expense in retaining grounds, hiring judges, renting horses, not to mention finding a volunteer workforce who already are limited in days they can sacrifice.

Nice idea. I hope it takes off for those who are interested. But it makes me wonder who the suits at AKC consult when they come up with this stuff.

[fuzznut]

I believe there may be quite a few dogs out there who have finished their FCs, done about all they can do in weekend trials and are just sitting around wanting something to do. Running them weekend after weekend doesn't do anything except maybe wrack up top ten points for them in their perspective breed standings. Thats nice and all that, but down the road all those wins and points after getting their FC isn't put into any record book and doesn't tell you anything about that dogs level of performance when the dog is gone.

The AF guys are always sort of laughing into their sleeve when it comes to AKC FC... yea, big deal.. 1/2 hr stakes, and all that jazz. So here is the opportunity for those dogs, and those owners, to take it to the next level- and to get that Grand you have to do it more then one time.

Britts and GSP's have lots of 1 hr stakes, most of the rest of us breeds simply don't have the opportunity to show in 1 hr stakes.

I hope these stakes get run, and do believe they will. Maybe not every weekend, but enough to give those who want it an opportunity to go after it.
Fuzz

[Neil]

It will work well for the Britts, seamless as most of the hour stakes are AF Championships and ran during the week, before or after the weekend trial.

It is not going to be easy to get. There are a lot of nice dogs that have never taken 1st in a +13 dog hour stake. Unless you are a pro or amatuer with a lot free time during the week you don't get many chances. Meaning the working folks with a 9 to 5 are not likely to get one.

[RCB]

All the current AF stakes for Brittanys and GSPs, for example, could be cross designated with GFC status and therefore no additional trials are needed. This way if you receive enough points for a GFC, the dog's AF hour stake championship will finally be shown on your AKC pedigree as GFC. The AKC was smart in allowing non field champions to enter GFC stakes so this can happen. The problem is you will need multiple wins which makes it harder than a CH designation on an AF pedigree. The AKC wins in this scenario since nothing else needs to be provided as far as trials go and a new title and revenue stream is established.

[orbirdhunter]

This is going to probably be a big topic of discussion in a few months when we start to look at planning our spring trials in our club. For us and most of the other clubs here locally the only way I could see it working is to run it on a Friday or Monday around a weekend trial, We run 3 courses on our weekend trials and its a big push often times to get through it all in 2 days, a hr stake would absolutely jam our weekend trials....
It would be curious to see just how many people would actually run a 1hr stake that isn't on a weekend? Or is a club going to drop multiple stakes to run it on a weekend? My guess is that there will be a lot of phone calls and emails to our Pro's that come to our trials to see what they are interested in.....I can't picture dropping a 12-16dog limited stake for a 6 dog hr stake...

Having said all of that, I like the idea in theory. It does give the dogs that have already finished and are out there cruising through limited stakes something else to work towards.. I know a couple of people have talked about how there is nothing to do after finishing your dog, and from a title prospect that may be right. But I watch ALOT of finished dogs run every weekend, and most of the owners just love running and watching there dogs, what else are you supposed to do, finish a dog then sit at home for 6yrs till you get a new dog?

[jetjockey]

Orbird... I just looked up the placements my dog has in 1 hr Brit trials in the Midwest and east coast. Her 9, 1hr placements, averaged 32 dogs per trial. It helps that in the Brit world the AA DOY standings only incorporate 1 hr trials, so there is already incentive to run 1 hr braces. The Shooting Dog Award only incorporates 1 hr braces as well. From what I've seen, the 1 hr trials seem to draw the Pros. They have no problem running dogs during the week, and it makes them more money. That draws entry's, but t also makes those trials tougher to place in. The draw back is you often need Pros in order to justify running the 1hr trial.

[RayGubernat]

Orbird... The draw back is you often need Pros in order to justify running the 1hr trial.

That should never be any kind of problem. Pros go where their clients tell them to go...not the other way around. The only problem with the format that I see is that breed restricted stakes are still to be allowed for this Grand Champion title. That will make the title a little less than "grand", IMO.

RayG

[orbirdhunter]

I looked back into events locally this year, there was a 1hr all breed trial that one of our local clubs held on a Monday after a weekend trial, it had 19 dogs, which is a pretty good turnout. Our local britt club runs at least one 1hr a year I think, and I am willing to bet that at least half of the entries for it is from Paul Doiron. Soo...It might work out better then I thought, I think about for most of our local trials the options have to be either extending the trial a day or two or cutting out a couple of other classes to open up one of the courses for a day+ on the weekend.
It might be doable if you just cut out the Open limited and amateur limited and run one 1hr class instead.

I still definitely like the idea, I mean what do you really do with your NFC NAFC FC AFC dogs except cruise through limited classes right now anyways....Might as well make it mean something more....Yeah, the more I think about it the more I like it.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Orbird... The draw back is you often need Pros in order to justify running the 1hr trial.

That should never be any kind of problem. Pros go where their clients tell them to go...not the other way around. The only problem with the format that I see is that breed restricted stakes are still to be allowed for this Grand Champion title. That will make the title a little less than "grand", IMO.

RayG

In my experience, the pros set the schedule and the dogs follow.

Doug

[jetjockey]

Orbird... The draw back is you often need Pros in order to justify running the 1hr trial.

That should never be any kind of problem. Pros go where their clients tell them to go...not the other way around. The only problem with the format that I see is that breed restricted stakes are still to be allowed for this Grand Champion title. That will make the title a little less than "grand", IMO.

RayG

I'm sure every Pro does it a little different. My Pro sets his schedule based on what's best for his string. With 8-10 clients, it's hard to make everyone happy and be in 8-10 different places at once. I get a schedule, he tells me what trials would be best for my dog to enter, and I put her in what I can afford. It just so happens that he doesn't really attend any trials that don't have 1 hr braces in either AA or SD/GD. As it is, my dog doesn't get entered in any 1/2hr weekend trials, unless I run her in Amateur trial where there is also a 1 hr trial. It works very well for him, and his clients. That's why I support the AKC offering a GFC title. Some dogs don't run 1/2 hr weekend trials.

[orbirdhunter]

The breed restriction thing really doesn't bother me. Locally the only club that runs restricted horseback stakes is the Britt Club, everyone else runs open to all.

The other thing that I just thought of....You need grounds with the room to run a 1hr stake..

I am not sure how our pro's handle the situations, I know that at least one of our pro's is huge for us as a club as a lot of his clients come and run the dogs in amateur stakes as well as him running in open stakes....We are a pretty small club, only a handful of people that are really active in the club.

All of this at this point has no bearing on myself personally, my very small, very short legged sprinter of a britt I don't picture getting around a 1hr course, at least not in a all breed stake and being competitive against the bigger, long legged gsp, gwp's..

Which of course could mean that she should be sitting on the couch instead of running. But she is all I have at the moment, and I enjoy doing it, even if all I am doing is donating money to the club

[RayGubernat]

Orbird... The draw back is you often need Pros in order to justify running the 1hr trial.

That should never be any kind of problem. Pros go where their clients tell them to go...not the other way around. The only problem with the format that I see is that breed restricted stakes are still to be allowed for this Grand Champion title. That will make the title a little less than "grand", IMO.

RayG

In my experience, the pros set the schedule and the dogs follow.

Doug

That is true. However, if the client does not like the pro's trial schedule, it is entirely possible that the dog will be moved to another pro with a trial schedule more to the client's liking, or simply taken home. If you are paying...you have a say, and you always have the last word.

RayG

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

That should never be any kind of problem. Pros go where their clients tell them to go...not the other way around. The only problem with the format that I see is that breed restricted stakes are still to be allowed for this Grand Champion title. That will make the title a little less than "grand", IMO.

RayG

In my experience, the pros set the schedule and the dogs follow.

Doug

That is true. However, if the client does not like the pro's trial schedule, it is entirely possible that the dog will be moved to another pro with a trial schedule more to the client's liking, or simply taken home. If you are paying...you have a say, and you always have the last word.

RayG

Anything's possible, but I've never seen that happen. Course I suppose I might get struck by lightening some day.

Doug

[RayGubernat]

Doug-

I guess you are right. I just have a hard time paying a contractor for services and not having input. Kinda like hiring a building contractor and having them tell me my bathrooms are all going to be pink and yellow.

That is just one of the minor reasons why I mostly run my own dogs.

RayG

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Trust me Ray, if I didn't have a 9 to 5 and had horses and everything else it takes I'd trial my own all the time to. I do some of my gun dogs, but don't have what it takes to train and run my AA dog. I have a great relationship with my trainer. He is one of my best friends. If he wasn't I don't think I'd have a dog with a pro.

Doug

[RayGubernat]

Trust me Ray, if I didn't have a 9 to 5 and had horses and everything else it takes I'd trial my own all the time to. I do some of my gun dogs, but don't have what it takes to train and run my AA dog. I have a great relationship with my trainer. He is one of my best friends. If he wasn't I don't think I'd have a dog with a pro.

Doug

Doug -

I really don't get a huge charge out of watching someone else run my dog. It's nice, but I can ride along at a trial and watch ALL of the dogs, pretty much for the cost of hauling the horse to the trial.

Different strokes for different folks. If I could not run my own dogs, I wouldn't bother. Up until this last dog, I trained all my own also...with help from folks who knew a lot more than me... at first. I tried with this latest one, but she was more of a challenge than I felt comfortable with. She also has so much potential, I did not want to mess her up. It is also entirely possible that she will be my last field trial dog. So when it was time to get serious about getting her steady, I gave her back to the pro that whelped her and trained her daddy. As above, if I had to buy a trained dog to compete, I wouldn't bother.

I'll go one step farther...if we had wild birds in sufficient abundance to hunt them with dogs where I live, I sincerely doubt I would have ever gotten interested in trialing in the first place.

I enjoy the training, the messing with puppies especially, the getting them to want to work with you and get a real thrill when I see the lights come on. I also enjoy turning the dog loose and handling. I know what we are doing, we are doing as a team and when the team does well, I am thrilled.

Are there better trainers than me? Sure are...plenty of them, maybe even most of them.

Are there better handlers than me? That's even easier to answer. Most of the handlers out there are better riders and handlers than I will ever be.

I do it 'cause it is great fun.

RayG

[kninebirddog]

From the way I see it all that will have to be added to the Open Limited is to add the GFC title to the stake to the title which out here on the west coast nothing would change much, as many of the trials already have the Limited stakes which are dual sanctioned. So now all they would have to do is Retitle the 1 hour stake.
from the AKC web site http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/field_ ... Titles.pdf

Grand points can only be earned in new stakes which will be called Grand stakes. The four new one hour Grand stakes are
(1) Grand Open Limited Gun Dog,
(2) Grand Amateur Limited Gun Dog,
(3) Grand Open Limited All Age, and
(4) Grand Amateur Limited All Age. Offering these stakes is up to the discretion of the host club.
Starting in July 2013 clubs may start applying for Grand stakes to be offered at
trials held after January 1, 2014.

May non - titled dogs run in Grand stakes? Yes.
If points are earned, they will count toward the FC or AFC title.


The following will be added to the Field Trial Rule Book at its next reprinting:
Grand Field Champion
: A dog that has previously earned its Field Champion title will be
recorded a Grand Field Champion (GFC) if it subsequently earns 6 points according to
the FC point schedule in Grand Open Limited Gun Dog or Grand Open Limited All - Age stakes, provided the points include at least one first place win of 3 points or more.
Dogs that are not Field Champions that earn points in Grand Open stakes will have the
points credited toward their FC title. Points earned by

And as stated the dogs that do not have a FC already gets points towards their FC and dogs that are already titled earn points towards their GFC. The only limits are that from AKC which Limits how many trials any ONE club can hold So I think this may help revive some of those Shell clubs that have been put on the shelf.
I don't see new hour stakes being offered in places that can't hold them as is...But I do see those OL stakes being retitled and business as usual where they have been running OL stakes all along