Gun Dog Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:06 am**

Romping through the field and bonding with your dog isn't a bad thing, and if done mindfully it presents good training opportunities. But it isn't the be all, end all. That's why all those books and DVDs are marketed.

And don't let's forget that a lot of novice trainers don't read their dogs properly and thus get into trouble down the line. Take a look at all the aggression and gunshy threads for examples.

Don't you think most of the brow-beating happens when someone asks for advice on a problem, gets it, but then goes into a ton of excuses, justifications, and yeah-buts? And sometimes a post may sound harsh but the poster doesn't intend it that way; sometimes folks are a bit too thin skinned to process the information without taking it as a personal attack.

Take what ya get, and do the best ya can with it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:23 am**

I agree, you Just don't get it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:32 am**

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:45 am**

Tooling,

I agree with you to an extent.... for example for the first year (or more for some) my dogs barely know their name, but spend alot of time in the field with me walking or riding, just kind of making sure nothing too catastrophic happens. Most of my dogs are steady to flush by a year old as a result ( have enough wild birds for consistent contact).`The issue is that most folks want to micro manage a young dog either in the name of training, or because they are scared to death fido is gona run off and get lost.

However once you start to get down to the nitty gritty of training, there is no substitute for a good program, and to be honest consistency is more important than bonding (pro trainers only have a dog for a few months and accompolish what many ametures cant do in a couple years of "bonding"). Also I think you will find SOME of the brow beating occurs when some one with their first dog starts to question the advice of some one speaking from the experience of ruining a few dogs, but they just don't want to hear it.

Also I cant agree more with Shags.

JIm

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:49 am**

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:04 am**

Tooling wrote:I once watched my pup point a quail sometime in September @ the age of 5 months with plenty of freshly fallen leaves on the ground. He started creeping in slowly and each footstep he took pushed the quail forward a foot or so. Pup cautiously and as quietly/slowly as he could took steps closer only to have the quail bump forward but not take flight. Just ahead of pup was a large bump in the ground that was barren of leaves. He crept onto that bump never breaking point on that quail and stood that bird for five minutes never so much as blinking an eye and never hearing one peep from my mouth. He ultimately busted thinking he had Mr. Quial right where he wanted him but of course did not catch. Should I have had a CC on him? What part of any DVD or book could replicate that experience which only took place because pup and I were out and about. Should he not have had that exposure because he hadn't had formal training..heck his recall wasn't even solid at that point but anytime we were in the field together doing this sort of thing he was more than happy to oblige my calling him in and taking him another direction....hardly formal and discouraged by many so called experts.

I can't take credit for that..that is pup learning...heck I can't even take credit for "teaching" him a recall at that point...what I COULD do is make his coming to me a positive experience and just plain fun in order to capitalize on his inherent wish to do what is in his best interest. I don't believe that you "teach" a dog so much as you increase the likelihood that your commands will be obeyed...notice I said "increase the chance"....maybe my heads's just thick or something...lol

All posts noted and appreciated but I have to ask...What value does your post offer besides a chuckle Johng918?

I doubt that anyone can argue with what you did and most of us live for this type of situation with our young prospects. the problem is that many many novice trainers would try to force this situation and would cause more issue than good. Some folks need to see something in print, and some folks are better off to write a check for training. it is what it is....

Jim

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:07 am**

Tooling wrote:Should he not have had...

Of course not, but sometimes one way to skin a cat is not the end all. Your exposure taught that dog a TON, but is that the end, of course not. We all need a little salt and pepper with our meal to add the final touches.

Tooling wrote:...hardly formal and discouraged by many so called experts.

Please provide what you are referring to rather than just throwing this out there...I for one would like to hear where this came from. I have not heard an expert discourage a young dog do what your dog did on a wild bird.

Again more than one way to cook a meal and we all end up with a full plate ...remember too, some want different things out of their dogs...Joe hunter, part time college recruit, all the way to elite genius...I think you are throwing too wide of a net in your comments...JMO

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:31 am**

Tooling

I am certainly confused, every program and pro I know of would agree that the situation you described with a 5 month old dog was appropriate.

If you described it differently say with a poor flying bird being caught, some would start to break rank with you.

If you described it happening consistent and included the consumption of said bird, a whole bunch of folks start to get a little high brow with you.

This is a diverse level of experience, abilities, and expectations for dog work with spotty data coming into the machine and spotty data going out in multiples...however, for those willing to filter and apply some common sense there is a consistent group of posters who can really help if they don't run up against justification, excuses and closed minds

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:36 am**

Tooling wrote:I once watched my pup point a quail sometime in September @ the age of 5 months with plenty of freshly fallen leaves on the ground. He started creeping in slowly and each footstep he took pushed the quail forward a foot or so. Pup cautiously and as quietly/slowly as he could took steps closer only to have the quail bump forward but not take flight. Just ahead of pup was a large bump in the ground that was barren of leaves. He crept onto that bump never breaking point on that quail and stood that bird for five minutes never so much as blinking an eye and never hearing one peep from my mouth. He ultimately busted thinking he had Mr. Quial right where he wanted him but of course did not catch. Should I have had a CC on him? What part of any DVD or book could replicate that experience which only took place because pup and I were out and about. Should he not have had that exposure because he hadn't had formal training..heck his recall wasn't even solid at that point but anytime we were in the field together doing this sort of thing he was more than happy to oblige my calling him in and taking him another direction....hardly formal and discouraged by many so called experts.

I can't take credit for that..that is pup learning...heck I can't even take credit for "teaching" him a recall at that point...what I COULD do is make his coming to me a positive experience and just plain fun in order to capitalize on his inherent wish to do what is in his best interest. I don't believe that you "teach" a dog so much as you increase the likelihood that your commands will be obeyed...notice I said "increase the chance"....maybe my heads's just thick or something...lol

All posts noted and appreciated but I have to ask...What value does your post offer besides a chuckle Johng918?

It was a none value added post(waste). But you are on the www. Getting free information it's up to you on what you take from it so who's ego really needs to be checked at the door?

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:13 am**

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 am**

Tooling,

Just because the earth moved for you one day, doesn't mean you will never misread your dog or do something dumb again. It happens.

It also happens that an outsider misinterprets a situation, and calls you out when in truth your read was correct. But getting all wound up about it won't help you...sometimes it makes it harder to be open to good advice down the road.

Probably most folks here understand the necessity of a rant after getting what we perceive as shafted in a trial or test. It might be more productive though, to lay out what happened, give your interpretation, and ask for other takes on it. That way, you might learn something ( maybe like you were right after all

) and you give other folks an opportunity to learn, too.

Good luck with your pup. It sounds like you're a great team.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:29 pm**

Tooling wrote:[quote
................. I see this on this board and I see it at hunt tests where ego abound with so many "experts"...it sends newcomers away feeling pretty bad and unlikely to return often times. I have had many people tell me the same thing and I've seen young people turned away from it because they just don't understand that lumps on the head are just a part of the gig sometimes. It just annoys me to watch adults do this to people...just a rant I guess :roll:

I think learning to "filter" is part of the gundog games but sad that many are turned off before they can realize this.

As you know , this is the real world. Know - it - alls (who don't know) and just plain jerks abound.

I've found that the longer you participate in a forum the more you get to know who is the real deal - knows what they are talking about. I listen to them and save many of their posts. At trials I hang around the debate circle with the real pros and listen .Real Pros/gentlemen are eager to help. .. like George/Mike Tracy.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:43 pm**

Tooling wrote:...hardly formal and discouraged by many so called experts.

Please provide what you are referring to rather than just throwing this out there...I for one would like to hear where this came from. I have not heard an expert discourage a young dog do what your dog did on a wild bird.

Check out the thread "Help first time trainer"

Tooling,

Enjoyed reading your pups experience.

I believe that seminars, training videos, & marketed programs are NOT as important as hunting experience .

I was told last night by gonehuntin that I was incompetent because I suggested that a teenager would benefit more from hunting his 5 month old retriever pups than buying a training video and following some program to the letter for the first year.

DB

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:08 pm**

Boy we seem to be making quite a bit out of training. Actually the less you train, the more you train.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:05 pm**

I think you need to decide whether you want to train your dog to increasingly higher levels of performance or if you want to sit around all misty eyed and write stories.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:15 pm**

DonF wrote:Boy we seem to be making quite a bit out of training. Actually the less you train, the more you train.

What? I think I'll just leave some puppies in the dog yard for a couple months....then again when they are 3....they should be steady all on their own.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:59 pm**

Donnytpburge wrote:
Tooling wrote:...hardly formal and discouraged by many so called experts.
Please provide what you are referring to rather than just throwing this out there...I for one would like to hear where this came from. I have not heard an expert discourage a young dog do what your dog did on a wild bird.

Check out the thread "Help first time trainer"

Tooling,

Enjoyed reading your pups experience.

I believe that seminars, training videos, & marketed programs are NOT as important as hunting experience .

I was told last night by gonehuntin that I was incompetent because I suggested that a teenager would benefit more from hunting his 5 month old retriever pups than buying a training video and following some program to the letter for the first year.

DB

FWIW- I do not know what went on, BUT ...If it was about bird dogs and training and Gonehuntin' told me I was incompetent...I'd have to say "Thank you, Sir", then I would have to stop and figure out what I messed up on. That is what I would do...You do what you have to. of course I might mumble a few thoughts under my breath, but that is just me.

When we do things right...nothing is learned. When we do things wrong...and have to deal with the consequences...then we learn. On the internet there are no real consequences, just verbal ones. It does help to have a fairly thick skin.

RayG

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:35 pm**

Don't you think most of the brow-beating happens when someone asks for advice on a problem, gets it, but then goes into a ton of excuses, justifications, and yeah-buts? And sometimes a post may sound harsh but the poster doesn't intend it that way; sometimes folks are a bit too thin skinned to process the information without taking it as a personal attack.

Yep!!

Charlie

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:03 am**

Tooling you wrote a long story, but you didn't give the scenario that preceded the judge telling you to learn to read your dog.

And Gonehunting is an old retriever/control freak, they are a different breed.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:45 am**

Go buy yourself a poodle and keep sippin' coffee on the porch. 90% of your problems solved.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:30 am**

Cajun Casey wrote:I think you need to decide whether you want to train your dog to increasingly higher levels of performance or if you want to sit around all misty eyed and write stories.

Why can't he do both.
Hunt test judges are hired to judge dogs, not to volunteer training info on a dog they don't know, to a handler they don't know. If the handler asks fine, if not, It turns new people off.
I understand "tooling" perfectly and have seen many people do a great job of training there own dog to master level with no knowledge of formal training who have very good bond with their dog spend time in the field. In fact my best female was ruined by a hard handed pro in Iowa and thrived under hunting conditions and bonding. Last 4 master tests scores: 59, 57, 58,59. Probably would have been 60 if I wasn't a PIA.
Point is a dog can be trained in many ways and while it may not be fastest way to train, spending time in the field with birds and learning how to be a team is by far the most fun and very effective..........................Cj

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:41 am**

Tooling wrote:
This post is not about a hunt test gone bad....at all. There is no reason to detail one of SEVERAL HT's that have pissed me off.

Most of what you have posted about in the various threads paints a picture to me of someone with too big an ego and not enough experience to back it up.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:43 am**

Donnytpburge wrote:
I was told last night by gonehuntin that I was incompetent because I suggested that a teenager would benefit more from hunting his 5 month old retriever pups than buying a training video and following some program to the letter for the first year.

DB

I went back and read the thread. GH had some good advice for you and the fellow with the dog. In the sceanario/information provided your advice was worse than no advice at all.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:35 am**

Tooling reading your posts on this thread and others might you be over thinking . Keep your training simple .

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:42 am**

cjhills wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I think you need to decide whether you want to train your dog to increasingly higher levels of performance or if you want to sit around all misty eyed and write stories.
Why can't he do both.
Hunt test judges are hired to judge dogs, not to volunteer training info on a dog they don't know, to a handler they don't know. If the handler asks fine, if not, It turns new people off.
I understand "tooling" perfectly and have seen many people do a great job of training there own dog to master level with no knowledge of formal training who have very good bond with their dog spend time in the field. In fact my best female was ruined by a hard handed pro in Iowa and thrived under hunting conditions and bonding. Last 4 master tests scores: 59, 57, 58,59. Probably would have been 60 if I wasn't a PIA.
Point is a dog can be trained in many ways and while it may not be fastest way to train, spending time in the field with birds and learning how to be a team is by far the most fun and very effective..........................Cj

Can't do both because it doesn't generate enough drama.

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:24 pm**

Tooling -

Just a few passing thoughts...

When I would get a little full of myself on occasion as a young man, my old man used to comment: "Don't be breaking your arm patting yourself on the back like that...you still have work to do." Another pin he would stick in my ego balloon when it got a little inflated was: " Folks that talk about how great they are, are usually trying to convince themselves."

If you are a politician or a salesman, ignore the above as that advice does not apply to jobs where the ability to avoid the truth is the primary job requirement.

Any decent trainer will tell you straight out...ANY time you mess with a dog, in any way, shape or form, you are training, whether you realize it or not.

The dog will learn what to do if you show it and will also learn what to do simply because you allow it.

RayG

Posted: **Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:58 pm**

If you don't want advice don't put crappily trained dogs on public display in tests and trials or post stupid things on the internet. Wow!

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:23 am**

Who ever said bonding and hunting a pup is a bad thing? I don't understand why you have a chip on your shoulder.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:13 am**

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:48 am**

Tooling wrote:Ok..so now my upbringing is in question and I have a crappy dog..why, because I said that bonding with pup is a good thing to lay the foundation for formal training and virtually suggested that some common sense along with literature may be a good thing?

...in my opinion

Because I offered feedback from the perspective of a newcomer to hunt tests etc?

I don't recall asking for any advice in this thread.

Crappy may have been a strong word, but there are a few things that are obvious from your postings throughout this forum:
Your dog is not as good as you think it is.
You are not as good as you think you are.
I would not want you on my sports team or my corporate team.

Tough crowd...that's all

The outside world is a tough place when you are the only one that is right.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:16 am**

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:53 am**

I don't get the whole thread!

I don't know if is a complaint, a plea for help, an attack, a philosophy, what?

I keep reading it, but what is the point?

Neil

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:18 am**

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:29 pm**

Tooling wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Tooling -

Just a few passing thoughts...

When I would get a little full of myself on occasion as a young man, my old man used to comment: "Don't be breaking your arm patting yourself on the back like that...you still have work to do." Another pin he would stick in my ego balloon when it got a little inflated was: " Folks that talk about how great they are, are usually trying to convince themselves."

If you are a politician or a salesman, ignore the above as that advice does not apply to jobs where the ability to avoid the truth is the primary job requirement.

Any decent trainer will tell you straight out...ANY time you mess with a dog, in any way, shape or form, you are training, whether you realize it or not.

The dog will learn what to do if you show it and will also learn what to do simply because you allow it.

Tooling -

I thought the header would put it in the proper perspective, but I guess you decided to take it personally. That's too bad, but that was your choice.

They were some random thoughts I had after reading the exchanges, that I thought might be of some use. Much was not even directed at you, but rather at folks who think that a Junior Hunter or Senior hunter pass is something to get all puffed up about. FWIW, its nice but it, it don't mean much and certainly not to me. I don't do hunt tests myself because they are not something I would enjoy. Heck, there was even an attempt at humor in my original post. I guess you missed that also. Oh well.

Trialing and testing is , for the most part, what you make of it. I choose to make it a good time for me and my dogs. I choose to challenge myself to do better, but I try to maintain perspective and have fun in the process. It IS supposed to be fun.

You must do what is right for you.

Take care and have a great season.

RayG

RayG

Wow...Ray..you do not know me but thank you for sharing your fathers wisdom with me. I was raised proper thank you....wow

How am I getting too big for my britches? Who ever said I was a trainer? How dare me for suggesting that I know my pup and perhaps I have the advantage of seeing him before my very eyes? Whoever said he was not going to be formally trained? In some cases this thread is proving my point.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:55 pm**

DonF wrote:Boy we seem to be making quite a bit out of training. Actually the less you train, the more you train.

Well said !

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:10 pm**

This thread isn't about training

It's about someone walking around with an atomic wedgie because some fat-headed egomaniacal hunt test judge pulled his head off out of you-know-where long enough to offer a little unwelcomed advice.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:35 pm**

shags wrote:This thread isn't about training

It's about someone walking around with an atomic wedgie because some fat-headed egomaniacal hunt test judge pulled his head off out of you-know-where long enough to offer a little unwelcomed advice.

Nah...it was pretty much about training.

It was forced in the hunt test direction by others...once it went there it turned into the fact that many in this world of dogs need to live vicariously through there dogs to make up for obvious inadequacies that they perceive about themselves. Not all of course..but some. I would liken it to the kid that got beat up in high school and is now a cop. "Listening" to a hunt test judge nearly killed my dog...it will not happen again.

And Ray...thank you for that...your humor was not lost on me and thank you for the well wishes w/ my pup. You also nailed it when you said, "you must do what's right for you and your dog". I could not agree w/ you more on the whole hunt test thing.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:08 pm**

Now that so many posts have been deleted, I am going to my grave not really understanding what this was about.

I recognized it as English, must have been in code. Nothing seemed offensive.

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:16 pm**

Neil wrote:I don't get the whole thread!

I don't know if is a complaint, a plea for help, an attack, a philosophy, what?

I keep reading it, but what is the point?

Neil

ROFLMBO...

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:26 pm**

Neil wrote:Now that so many posts have been deleted, I am going to my grave not really understanding what this was about.

I recognized it as English, must have been in code. Nothing seemed offensive.

No, not offensive...perhaps a lot lost in translation.

The thread was about just exposure, bonding, and loosely following a program/programs while coming up with a game plan into formality with a young dog. It was also trying to address the realism of help being jammed down somebodies throat unsolicitated or in unproductive ways. The thread took a nose dive and was resulting in flared tempers which = waste of time and lack of productivity so I deleted it.

I got tarred & feathered..lol

I will learn....some day

Posted: **Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:46 pm**

A lot of people like to give advice whether they know anything about the topic or not, it is especially true when it comes to dogs. A lot of people also like to ask questions to things they already have decided how they are going to answer said question, and will argue with any answer they get that differs from their own pre conceived one, whether right or wrong. I am guilty of it on occasion as well.

Human nature I guess.

It happens in everything, farmers will argue with doctors about medicine or lawyers about the law, and vice versa, I don't know why.

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