Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

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Tooling
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Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:50 pm

Go ahead...get it out of your system..yes, I have a low post count so have at it.

Following that, lets get into the meat..what are the issues w/hunt tests? Why is attendance going down in areas and what would you like to see change (if anything)?

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by mlittle » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:20 pm

I personally dont see anything wrong with hunt tests. All of the different venues have different followings. I have taken dogs to hunt tests and really enjoyed them.
The people I met there were great, and the judging was really good, and seemed very fair.

I dont still do it. No real reason. Its just that I would rather spend my time with the dogs training, hunting and trials. The hunt tests in this area seem to have a lot of dogs that are primarily show dogs. Dogs will show on Saturday and try to hunt test on Sunday. Not really the rednecks I hang with....I have enjoyed them all, but enjoy some other things more. They usually end up onthe same days with a trial, or something else I want to do.

I would maybe test again some day, if I dont have a trial or a hunt lined up that day, and it was local.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Ms. Cage » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:24 pm

Not a damm thing wrong with hunt test. Unless your from the younger generation a feel everybody should get a prize. I feel my dogs have always been judged fairly. Judges are easier on my dogs then I am. You talk about ego's and clicks on another thread, man that's every where. in life. No matter where you go there are different personality's. By the way, have you found time to work your dog with all the posting!!! :P
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Tooling
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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:30 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:Not a damm thing wrong with hunt test. Unless your from the younger generation a feel everybody should get a prize. I feel my dogs have always been judged fairly. You talk about ego's and clicks on another thread, man that's every where. in life. No matter where you go there are different personality's.
ABSOLUTELY!!! I don't need the ribbon and pup doesn't seem to notice..everybody should not get a prize or a "trophy" unless earned and the standard should be held.

Yeah...we were out Friday for three hours , yesterday for two, and today in the yard : )

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:55 pm

The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation. Even so, I will probably run Hunt Tests again some day.

I don't know why you persist in the topic. I don't think you have a clue about the format.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:44 pm

:roll:
You start. :lol:

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:46 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation.
I see this repeated often but fail to see the difference between the call back for retrieve and a retrieve on course. Either the dog will remain steady for a shot bird and retrieve it to hand or they won't. How does the call back make it higher pressure?

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:42 pm

slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation.
I see this repeated often but fail to see the difference between the call back for retrieve and a retrieve on course. Either the dog will remain steady for a shot bird and retrieve it to hand or they won't. How does the call back make it higher pressure?
Try it sometime.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:42 am

It is like night and day. Shooting on course is as close as you can get to hunting wild birds. But, still not the same. Call back for a retrieve is where you have dozens of people watching and all kinds of talking, yelling and you name going on. The birds are rocked so heavy, it is hard to get the birds up and many a time you cannot so you throw out a dead bird for the dog to retrieve. It is truly a mess. I have seen a top notch dog screw up in call because of all distractions. When the dog did great in his run and bird finding ability. I personally would like to get rid of retrieving. But, probably will never change. It is up to the individual breed clubs to remove the retrieve. The GSPCA got rid of the water retrieve because it was so phony. The Brits, Pointers have gotten rid of retrieving in AKC trials. American Field does not do any retrieving. NGSPA does not require retrieving. Oh well, just beating a dead horse.
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation.
I see this repeated often but fail to see the difference between the call back for retrieve and a retrieve on course. Either the dog will remain steady for a shot bird and retrieve it to hand or they won't. How does the call back make it higher pressure?

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by ohmymy111 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:05 am

Personally, as only one bird is found, and missed, then I prefer the callback for retrieve. It is a much more controlled situation from perspective. The dog understands much better and usually performs better in that kind of situation.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:12 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation.
I see this repeated often but fail to see the difference between the call back for retrieve and a retrieve on course. Either the dog will remain steady for a shot bird and retrieve it to hand or they won't. How does the call back make it higher pressure?
Try it sometime.
More pressure on you maybe but the dog doesn't care one way or the other. Just another excuse someone came up with and several people have jumped on the wagon when they couldn't come up with something better.

Ezzy

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:31 am

If a call back goes cleanly I suppose it is an OK way to go about it. But I was at an FT last spring and a really nice little GSP had 6 birds put out for call back that were either missed or flew off in an unsafe direction. Bird #7 the dog just blew up. Sorry sir. Good luck next time...... I would prefer shoot on course or no retrieve myself.

Jim

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:18 am

Up here or at least in NH and MA, Which might give the first clue :wink: The birds usually suck. The gunners are okay, but could be better schooled. The judges for the most part are pretty good. But somehow I always get one that does not hunt and thinks that a dog turning to mark a bird should be pulled. Usually show dog people. But that is my luck. I now just chuckle about it. The other is, the people that are so worried that their dog will be to far away for them to control every aspect of the dogs hunt they keep hacking on the dog to keep them close and the dog is bored and is pretty much out for a walk till it stumbles on bird.

To be in MH you need to have your dog trained and PROOFED for those weird situations that always seem to come up.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:23 am

slistoe wrote::roll:
You start. :lol:
:lol: Not a chance

This is a serious thread, not a stir of the pot.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:22 am

I could give a big +sh++ about call backs. Darn dog should still do what is supposed to do.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:41 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:If a call back goes cleanly I suppose it is an OK way to go about it. But I was at an FT last spring and a really nice little GSP had 6 birds put out for call back that were either missed or flew off in an unsafe direction. Bird #7 the dog just blew up. Sorry sir. Good luck next time...... I would prefer shoot on course or no retrieve myself.
All MH's we've been involved in but one the judges had a few extra birds with them in the field. If a dog needed a retrieve or a back it was done as soon as time was up out in the field. IMO , retrieving is a big part of hunting and should never be elimitnated .
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I could give a big +sh++ about call backs. Darn dog should still do what is supposed to do.
+1

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by uplandrsb » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:46 am

the only issue i have seen in the local hunt test is the quail seem to be terrible.. better flying birds that would actually allow a shot woudl be nice.. But for the most part in senior and for sure master, your dog should be ready for any of the call backs, missed birds, obiedience, etc.. its all part of the hunt TEST, if the dog cant handle it they shouldnt get a pass... I have missed few PASS scores on call backs, but in every situation (although maybe we shouldnt have needed the call back) the dog knew what was supposed to be done and didnt do it.. back to training. Not the call backs fault, it was the dog and handlers fault.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:50 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:The only problem I have with AKC Hunt Tests is the same problem I have with AKC Field Trials. The call back to retrieve. The dog can give a class performance and blow it in a totally artificial, high pressure situation.
I see this repeated often but fail to see the difference between the call back for retrieve and a retrieve on course. Either the dog will remain steady for a shot bird and retrieve it to hand or they won't. How does the call back make it higher pressure?
Try it sometime.
Maybe I will. :wink:

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:50 am

While I agree that retrieving is a big part of of hunting, I hate having to depend on someone elses shot at the end of the day when I have spent my $.

I also agree that the dog should do what its supposed to do, but at some point you are setting a dog up for failure by repeating the same BS scenario, that the dog knows is a set up time after time.

Jim

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:52 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:If a call back goes cleanly I suppose it is an OK way to go about it. But I was at an FT last spring and a really nice little GSP had 6 birds put out for call back that were either missed or flew off in an unsafe direction. Bird #7 the dog just blew up. Sorry sir. Good luck next time...... I would prefer shoot on course or no retrieve myself.

Jim
So you would rather have the dog try to find 6 birds in a 1/2 hour run just so it will get a chance to retrieve on course? Really, I doubt that the callback was responsible for gunners missing birds and birds flying in unsafe direction. Retrieve on course would not fix this problem at all.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:53 am

Tooling wrote:
slistoe wrote::roll:
You start. :lol:
:lol: Not a chance

This is a serious thread, not a stir of the pot.
Misery loves company - feeling better yet?

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:58 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:While I agree that retrieving is a big part of of hunting, I hate having to depend on someone elses shot at the end of the day when I have spent my $.
If my husband had his way in MH, UT VC levels at least one bird would be missed be prove the dog could handle the situation and not blow up. Heck we don't knock down every bird when we're hunting. Then again maybe Howie is alittle hard core. When we train we miss birds to condition the dog to the situation.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:59 am

Brooks Carmichael wrote:It is like night and day. Shooting on course is as close as you can get to hunting wild birds. But, still not the same. Call back for a retrieve is where you have dozens of people watching and all kinds of talking, yelling and you name going on. The birds are rocked so heavy, it is hard to get the birds up and many a time you cannot so you throw out a dead bird for the dog to retrieve. It is truly a mess. I have seen a top notch dog screw up in call because of all distractions. When the dog did great in his run and bird finding ability. I personally would like to get rid of retrieving. But, probably will never change. It is up to the individual breed clubs to remove the retrieve. The GSPCA got rid of the water retrieve because it was so phony. The Brits, Pointers have gotten rid of retrieving in AKC trials. American Field does not do any retrieving. NGSPA does not require retrieving. Oh well, just beating a dead horse.
I would counter that what you saw was a dog not trained for the situation it was put in. Planted birds are planted birds - on course as well. If your dog is not trained to deal with birds running under it's belly, flying in its face, not getting up and flying at all, etc. then your dog is not very likely to make it to the call back in the first place.

Now if you want to eliminate retrieve then that is a different kettle of fish. Personally it would do no harm to any of the breeds in competition. In a Hunt Test - well that is a HUNT Test and retrieve is pretty basic to hunting for most folks.
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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:04 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:While I agree that retrieving is a big part of of hunting, I hate having to depend on someone elses shot at the end of the day when I have spent my $.

Jim
I have seen gunners miss, but I would still rather depend on their shooting than mine! My dogs get lots of practice at "No Bird". :oops:

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:15 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I could give a big +sh++ about call backs. Darn dog should still do what is supposed to do.
It's really tough on a birddog to have to handle 6 missed birds. On the seventh he either blows up or does the work looking like a sack of cr@p. None of what goes wrong with callback situations is the dog's fault, and when things go south, it's usually not fair to either the dog or the guy who paid the entry fee.

If you're looking for an obedience exhibition, there are events for just that.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by GrayDawg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:19 am

Let me first provide some perspective........... I judged AKC Hunt Tests from 1995-1998 (mostly Senior or Master).
I met a lot of really nice people at AKC Hunt tests- organizers, participants & other judges.
I felt that:

- 99% of the people had good intentions
- 95% of the handlers were not looking for a freebie
- 90% of the handlers would not try to cheat even if they felt they could get away with it

I stopped judging after 1998 due to a couple of factors.

- When I started being paired with judges who never bird hunted and didn't know the difference between their @$$ and a hole in the wall.
- When people (judges & handlers) didn't understand what was & wasn't allowable with regards to a passable "honoring" performance at the Senior level
- When I started being paired with judges who seemed intent on watching the dog and just waiting for it to do something that they could say "Ahh, the dog did X, he's disqualified", as opposed to watching the entire performance and/or considering factors which contributed to the action of the dog and/or handler.

EXAMPLE: In a Master test, bird is pointed by dog (not in bird field), handler calls point. Handler flushes bird who does a 180 & flies over dog's head and in the direction of the dog's tail. Dog ROTATES on the spot they are currently on to mark the flight of the bird as bird disappears. Handler fires blank pistol. Dog stays put after rotation to mark. In my book, in a Master test, this is acceptable. Not once, not twice.... but three times I had my judging partner tell me that they felt this action DQ'd the dog under judgement.

The first time, it was inconsequential as the dog screwed up a back 10 minutes later.

The second time resulted in a passionate discussion resulting in the other judge relenting & passing the dog- but not without letting me know they didn't agree with what was going on.

The third time (and this was the kicker) resulted in my judging partner telling me "I'm not passing this dog, he moved on the flush". The dog had already backed beautifully, hunted hard, handled kindly and after the incident, worked a bird in the bird field and retrieved perfectly. At the end of the brace, I told my partner, if you don't plan on passing this dog, let me know. They said, "no way, he moved on that bird on the back course". I then told this person "Okay" and sat down on a nearby rock in the middle of the bird field. When they asked me what I was doing & reminded me we had two more braces to judge, I replied that the AKC Hunt Test Instructions to judges state that the judges must agree on whether or not a dog is going to pass. And seeing that we were not in agreement, I was just going to sit on the rock & enjoy the morning. They went back to the paddock & told the HT Chairperson of my intentions. They both returned about 10 minutes later. I refused to back down from my position and was convinced that the judge I was paired with never hunted a wild bird in his life. What happened next wasn't pretty & I won't share on this public forum.

That's when I realized life is too short to be paired with some clueless pink hat as a judging partner. I didn't even care to put dogs under judgement of such people any more. I know what I have, I don't need someone to pass or not pass my dog against a standard- especially if I don't respect the system that places such people in a judicial position. I'd rather just hunt/trial my dogs in the fall or trial them in the spring.

To each their own, if Hunt Tests make you happy- go for it & enjoy. for me, such endeavors have lost their luster.

Rob

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:34 am

uplandrsb wrote:the only issue i have seen in the local hunt test is the quail seem to be terrible.. better flying birds that would actually allow a shot woudl be nice.. But for the most part in senior and for sure master, your dog should be ready for any of the call backs, missed birds, obiedience, etc.. its all part of the hunt TEST, if the dog cant handle it they shouldnt get a pass... I have missed few PASS scores on call backs, but in every situation (although maybe we shouldnt have needed the call back) the dog knew what was supposed to be done and didnt do it.. back to training. Not the call backs fault, it was the dog and handlers fault.
Thats just another excuse and i've heard them all. Either the dog can handle or it can't {nuff said}.

The quality of birds has nothing to do with it whether its a HT, a Trial or if its first bird shot on course, bird field or call back. The dog should still perform or it fails.

. The birds could be dead for all I care but that has nothing to do with "call backs".

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:35 am

For field trial dogs probably a retrieve is a waste of time plus it is much easier to break a dog steady who is never allowed to retrieve. Watched the call backs At a trial a couple weeks ago none of the dogs retrieved. What happens to the placements then.
I'm a little more into what is good about hunt tests. Basically, anyone who wants to can, with a little time and patience train a decent dog to pass at least at some level and eventually all. They are a excellent way for a beginner to start and how most people would like their dog to hunt. It does not require huge amounts of money.
I don't need to waste my time training my upland dog to do water work or encourage him to track.
One issue is unless you travel you are quite limited as far as seeing different judges goes. Getting competent judges is a problem. Hopefully, the use of four wheelers will help that. I have very little problem with the way my dogs are judged. most times when they blow up they do it big time. Some judges let their egos show a bit much, but mostly they are human
Hunt tests are probably dying due to several factors. We don't have trainers with large numbers of dogs and the clubs don't show much profit. They are not the social event they used to be, at least not here in Minnesota. We used to start in mid April and go to mid June Nearly every weekend. None in 2013.
Way more good than bad But as with every thing there is some of each. Cj

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:02 am

Good post Greydog, Im glad someone wasn't afraid to put their finger squarely on the problem !

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:43 am

Let me say at the outset, that I do not run my dogs in hunt tests. That decision has absolutely nothing to do with the format or the people, but rather has everything to do with the type of dog I prefer to hunt over and handle.

I have, on several occasions, attended local hunt tests, mostly to help out with things like bird planting and such. I have seen some nice dogs, but for the most part, the type of performance which gets rewarded tends to be less ambitious, less independent and more "thorough" in ground coverage, for example, doing figure eights in front of the handler. That is just not my personal cup of tea.

I do not see any problems with hunt tests that could not be remedied by knowledgeable, independent, experienced judges. The AKC system of certifying judges simply does not do a good job of selecting for this type of person and in fact, may work against it. I do not profess to know what the answer to the situation is however.

In a local area, if the judicial standards are not what they should be, handlers who "learn the ropes" under flawed standards and obtain passes at senior and master levels under those flawed standards will now be able to judge, thus perpetuating those flawed standards. Since most hunt tests tend to have a lot of local participation, and it is a very small circle of folks to begin with, it can be hard to "not pass" a dog that is being handled by an acquaintance or someone whom you train with. It can also be hard on a friendship. This also can lead to "relaxed" standards.

I would also echo Greydawg's comment on negative judging. It is far, far easier, and requires far, far less experience and knowledge, to knock a dog for doing something wrong than it is to take the sum total of what the dog did right and base decisions on what was positive. Negative judging happens in all venues, at all levels, mostly because it is easy to do and is less controversial, thus easier to defend. However, it is absolutely the wrong way to judge.

There are also some judges, who enjoy judging, and if they were to start failing the majority of dogs, they might be somewhat less likely to be asked to judge that test the following year, mainly because the same dogs and handlers would probably be there once again.

The costs associated with providing horse for judges can be crippling to a club, so unless the judges or a club member has horses they will loan out, it can be financially difficult to break even at a hunt test without jacking up the entry fees which would tend to cause lower entries and the downward spiral. I don't know if ATV's or golf carts are the answer or if doing it with mechanized conveyances is just trading one problem for another.


I will say that the folks who participate in hunt tests, as a group, are extremely welcoming and that the tests I have attended were very much family oriented affairs, which I found to be very special and enjoyable. Folks out having fun with their dogs and their families is certainly something that should be encouraged.

RayG

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:08 am

for those who dont see an issue with a dog who is expected to work through 6missed birds "because it happens in hunting" I think you must hunt differently than I do.

I have NEVER in the field, cut a dog loose, shot at a bird, missed it, then led the dog back to the truck, had some one go throw another bird down, let the dog go, estabolish point, go in flush, no shot, led the dog back to the truck let some one else throw down a bird..... You get the point. Also I don't care what you say, they know the difference.

I dont train like this, and to be honest I dont expect my dog to opperate flawlessly, "because thats what they do". But, to each his own.

I dont run HTs cause like ray said I dont expect my dogs to run like that, and to be honest I'm not sure I can keep my dogs on the local grounds when braced with another dog.

Jim

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:30 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:I have NEVER in the field, cut a dog loose, shot at a bird, missed it, then led the dog back to the truck, had some one go throw another bird down, let the dog go, estabolish point, go in flush, no shot, led the dog back to the truck let some one else throw down a bird..... You get the point. Also I don't care what you say, they know the difference.

I have yet to see where a dog is lead back to the truck. Not saying in some places it doesn't happen. I've been in a situation where the dog had 3 no bird safties right of the bat all handled well and went on to find 9 more birds all handled and retrieved properly. darn tooten the dog knows the differance. Handle it that's the name of the game. Man , I remember going through almost a box of shells grouse and woodcock hunting years back before I put a bird in the bag. I ll never live that day down. I don't give a rat how many are missed dog should mind his manners.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by GSP7 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:35 am

EXAMPLE: In a Master test, bird is pointed by dog (not in bird field), handler calls point. Handler flushes bird who does a 180 & flies over dog's head and in the direction of the dog's tail. Dog ROTATES on the spot they are currently on to mark the flight of the bird as bird disappears. Handler fires blank pistol. Dog stays put after rotation to mark. In my book, in a Master test, this is acceptable. Not once, not twice.... but three times I had my judging partner tell me that they felt this action DQ'd the dog under judgement.
Yep, heard the same stuff here local just recently.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Winchey » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:45 am

RayGubernat wrote:Let me say at the outset, that I do not run my dogs in hunt tests. That decision has absolutely nothing to do with the format or the people, but rather has everything to do with the type of dog I prefer to hunt over and handle.

I have, on several occasions, attended local hunt tests, mostly to help out with things like bird planting and such. I have seen some nice dogs, but for the most part, the type of performance which gets rewarded tends to be less ambitious, less independent and more "thorough" in ground coverage, for example, doing figure eights in front of the handler. That is just not my personal cup of tea.

I do not see any problems with hunt tests that could not be remedied by knowledgeable, independent, experienced judges. The AKC system of certifying judges simply does not do a good job of selecting for this type of person and in fact, may work against it. I do not profess to know what the answer to the situation is however.

In a local area, if the judicial standards are not what they should be, handlers who "learn the ropes" under flawed standards and obtain passes at senior and master levels under those flawed standards will now be able to judge, thus perpetuating those flawed standards. Since most hunt tests tend to have a lot of local participation, and it is a very small circle of folks to begin with, it can be hard to "not pass" a dog that is being handled by an acquaintance or someone whom you train with. It can also be hard on a friendship. This also can lead to "relaxed" standards.

I would also echo Greydawg's comment on negative judging. It is far, far easier, and requires far, far less experience and knowledge, to knock a dog for doing something wrong than it is to take the sum total of what the dog did right and base decisions on what was positive. Negative judging happens in all venues, at all levels, mostly because it is easy to do and is less controversial, thus easier to defend. However, it is absolutely the wrong way to judge.

There are also some judges, who enjoy judging, and if they were to start failing the majority of dogs, they might be somewhat less likely to be asked to judge that test the following year, mainly because the same dogs and handlers would probably be there once again.

The costs associated with providing horse for judges can be crippling to a club, so unless the judges or a club member has horses they will loan out, it can be financially difficult to break even at a hunt test without jacking up the entry fees which would tend to cause lower entries and the downward spiral. I don't know if ATV's or golf carts are the answer or if doing it with mechanized conveyances is just trading one problem for another.


I will say that the folks who participate in hunt tests, as a group, are extremely welcoming and that the tests I have attended were very much family oriented affairs, which I found to be very special and enjoyable. Folks out having fun with their dogs and their families is certainly something that should be encouraged.

RayG
Ray, judging sucks. Takes a lot of experience criticaly watching dogs, training, hunting, running your own. You need to be able to read dogs really well, what did they actually do, why did they do it.

Some scenarios are tough to judge for a beginner, did the dog smell the bird, did he see the bird? And you can't exactly say just give me 5 minutes while I decide if I am going to pick your dog up in a broke stake.

You can do all the reading you want and some even put the time in and the reading and still never get it.

I just try not to take anything too seriously and leave happy.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:54 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:I have NEVER in the field, cut a dog loose, shot at a bird, missed it, then led the dog back to the truck, had some one go throw another bird down, let the dog go, estabolish point, go in flush, no shot, led the dog back to the truck let some one else throw down a bird..... You get the point. Also I don't care what you say, they know the difference.

I have yet to see where a dog is lead back to the truck. Not saying in some places it doesn't happen. I've been in a situation where the dog had 3 no bird safties right of the bat all handled well and went on to find 9 more birds all handled and retrieved properly. darn tooten the dog knows the differance. Handle it that's the name of the game. Man , I remember going through almost a box of shells grouse and woodcock hunting years back before I put a bird in the bag. I ll never live that day down. I don't give a rat how many are missed dog should mind his manners.
OK.... SInce i can see where this is going. In a HT I have yet to see a dog taken back to the truck so that a bird can be placed. In stead I have seen dogs led away 100yds and have their back turned while a bird is placed, then turned back around and sent back. Im sure this is a much better way to sinmulate a hunting experience.

It is obviouse that you folks have/expect much more control over your dogs that I want, I still expect my dogs to think some for themselves and to be honest if my dog blows a call back on the 3rd or more attempt and has stood to my expectation up to then, then fine. This level of robot like control expected of an HT dog is exactly why i dont care for the game.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:55 am

This post coming from Ray is a surprise to me because it is mostly wrong and probably based on perception rather than facts or they do it different in other states.
I have run many master tests and have titles on several big running, hard hunting dogs. many of the judges are also trial judges and Nstra shoot to retrieve judges. Many FC are also MH
As I have said numerous times read and understand your rules, if you disagree don't afraid to discuss it with the judges, they are not god on horseback and many don't know the rules. Your best friend can be a AKC rep.
I have been to many tests where only one or two dogs pass out of 15 or 20 master dogs braces. many of the dogs were handled by the top breeders and trainers. I have never seen a judge here pass a friends dog. I have seen some of the top gsps in the country struggle to pass master tests. It is not as easy as you might think. Not in Mn any way.
Most judges try to be fair and impartial and have very little problem failing a dog no matter whose it is.
Horses are very expensive and most new judges don't want to make the investment. . GSPCMN uses four wheelers in all of our tests as does shoot to retrieve. they work great at a huge savings and most people can handle them.
For the most part it is probably easier to get a Mh on a closer working dog but the rules say bold and independent and not hunting can get a dq.
I don't think there is a club in Mn. that wouldn't hire a judge because they didn't place enough.
I find this post a bit insulting do the people who work at training hunt test dogs coming from some body who hasn't tried. I have only run a few puppy stakes but though I have a hard time making a lot of sense out of trials I won't knock it til I tried it ......Cj

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:01 am

cjhills wrote:This post coming from Ray is a surprise to me because it is mostly wrong and probably based on perception rather than facts or they do it different in other states.
I have run many master tests and have titles on several big running, hard hunting dogs. many of the judges are also trial judges and Nstra shoot to retrieve judges. Many FC are also MH
As I have said numerous times read and understand your rules, if you disagree don't afraid to discuss it with the judges, they are not god on horseback and many don't know the rules. Your best friend can be a AKC rep.
I have been to many tests where only one or two dogs pass out of 15 or 20 master dogs braces. many of the dogs were handled by the top breeders and trainers. I have never seen a judge here pass a friends dog. I have seen some of the top gsps in the country struggle to pass master tests. It is not as easy as you might think. Not in Mn any way.
Most judges try to be fair and impartial and have very little problem failing a dog no matter whose it is.
Horses are very expensive and most new judges don't want to make the investment. . GSPCMN uses four wheelers in all of our tests as does shoot to retrieve. they work great at a huge savings and most people can handle them.
For the most part it is probably easier to get a Mh on a closer working dog but the rules say bold and independent and not hunting can get a dq.
I don't think there is a club in Mn. that wouldn't hire a judge because they didn't place enough.
I find this post a bit insulting do the people who work at training hunt test dogs coming from some body who hasn't tried. I have only run a few puppy stakes but though I have a hard time making a lot of sense out of trials I won't knock it til I tried it ......Cj

I agree with alot of this. I dont expect every dog to pass any more than I expect every dog at a trial to get a blue ribbon, I just dont necessarily agree with some of the protocall, and for the record the things that irritate me about AKC HT are the same things that irritate me about AKC FT but given the 2 options, I will spend my money getting irritated at FTs..... :D

JIm

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by millerms06 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:08 am

A couple of gripes is that clubs need to be more creative in how they use grounds. A dog isn't going to want to stick in an area that has no cover.
A dog will stay in that area if it:

1. only ranges thirty yards from the handler or sometimes less on a consistent basis
2. Is not allowed to independently work a field based solely on natural instincts

With my hunt test experiences, I saw more pointing dogs not ranging very far and the "birdy" objectives are out of bounds. I also met show dog owners that were there to obtain one level and they expressed that their dogs wouldn't cut the next level of standards or would not be allowed to try. I even witnessed a breeder bring a whole litter and their owners to test each dog. Sounds like a normal thing to do, but some of the dogs and owners looked really wet behind the ears with the concept of hunting.

At one hunt test, the whole field really had no cover. The dogs were let go upwind of the bird field. My dog's bracemate handled close and was trotting around somewhat keen to the handler. When I let my dog go she immediately was searching for a bird. After she made a few passes in the neutral field she basically said screw this and started hunting in the direction where the birds were. The judges were like "call your dog back". Why so her bracemate can keep up? If the dog doesn't fit the bill of working the field at an efficient pace, don't try to fault the dog that is. I am also not going to correct my dog if she smells birds either. It is pretty hard to say she wasn't smelling birds when you are running in a field that looks like it was mowed, and you design a course where the dog will have to travel to the bird field with a constant 20 mph wind flirting the scent in their faces.

Which brings up another point which I will probably get flack for but it would be hard to disagree: at what pace the handler and dog work a field. If they are efficient and productive at the pace they are going, and are walking, why slow them down? I overheard a few judges comment on how my dog runs and how I walk a field. I keep up with her just fine. For how short I am, I cover ground pretty quick and like my dogs to do the same. But I can see where the opposite opinion would be if the one commenting is grabbing cigarettes as if they were licorice, comments like they have too many drinks at the local watering hole, or is huffing and puffing because they are not in as equal shape as the handler and dog. I feel sorry for a judge that has me and my dog as the last one to go, but I do not feel it appropriate to accommodate the judge's deteriorating physical stamina. My dog and I should be treated equally to the first dog and handler's hunting pace potential. I know that judging is not a lucrative position, and the position is a taxing job on both fronts. My dad judged AKC beagle trials for many many years in conditions that would make AKC pointing dog venues look like a race track. Those judges were victim to following the dogs on foot: try telling forty or so beagles to slow down in cedar swamps! They all knew the responsibility and the integrity to uphold the game they call field trialing.

And just so we are all clear, this is coming from someone that really wants to be a judge...not someone that complains for the sake of complaining...

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:31 am

cjhills wrote:This post coming from Ray is a surprise to me because it is mostly wrong and probably based on perception rather than facts or they do it different in other states.
I have run many master tests and have titles on several big running, hard hunting dogs. many of the judges are also trial judges and Nstra shoot to retrieve judges. Many FC are also MH.
As I have said numerous times read and understand your rules, if you disagree don't afraid to discuss it with the judges, they are not god on horseback and many don't know the rules. Your best friend can be a AKC rep.
I have been to many tests where only one or two dogs pass out of 15 or 20 master dogs braces. many of the dogs were handled by the top breeders and trainers. I have never seen a judge here pass a friends dog. I have seen some of the top gsps in the country struggle to pass master tests. It is not as easy as you might think. Not in Mn any way.
Most judges try to be fair and impartial and have very little problem failing a dog no matter whose it is.
Horses are very expensive and most new judges don't want to make the investment. . GSPCMN uses four wheelers in all of our tests as does shoot to retrieve. they work great at a huge savings and most people can handle them.
For the most part it is probably easier to get a Mh on a closer working dog but the rules say bold and independent and not hunting can get a dq.
I don't think there is a club in Mn. that wouldn't hire a judge because they didn't place enough.
I find this post a bit insulting do the people who work at training hunt test dogs coming from some body who hasn't tried. I have only run a few puppy stakes but though I have a hard time making a lot of sense out of trials I won't knock it til I tried it ......Cj

Cj -

I call 'em like I see 'em. What I wrote about is what I have seen at the local level.

It appears that you are taking what I have said, waaaay past where I intended to go. There are lots of good dogs and lots of good handlers and lots of qualified folks sitting in the saddle as judges. I neither said nor inferred anything different.

At one test I was riding the back course and stocking for a senior hunter test. SEVERAL of the dogs did not hunt, but rather went along in front of their handler, pretty much on the path. They were more or les out for a walk. That is fine, but that ain't hunting. There were several dogs that did a nice job, including one Gordon that swept back and forth in a windshield wiper fashion. Not my cup of tea, as I said, but the dog was definitely hunting, and hunting hard.

You said it yourself...bold and independent is what the standard is. A lot of the dogs I have seen at local hunt tests do not fit that description, but guess what?? If they go through clean, they may get a pass. It happens and you know it does.

I have yet to see a dog with an FC going for a hunt test title in this area. Not saying it does not happen, but I suspect it is rather a rare occurrence hereabouts. A dog with or without a show Ch. pursuing JH or SH is much more of a likely scenario.

You wrote: "Most judges try to be fair and impartial and have very little problem failing a dog no matter whose it is." I agree with that.

You wrote: : "I don't think there is a club in Mn. that wouldn't hire a judge because they didn't place enough." I can't speak for MN. so I'll take your word on that if you'll take my word. See how easy that is??

In this area it is ILLEGAL to use off road vehicles of any kind on state owned lands, where practically all the hunt tests are done. I suspect it is similarly illegal to use these means of conveyance in many states on public lands. So it is horses or walking for the judges, in many cases. The use of off road vehicles, even where legal, has both pros and cons as regards trialing and testing.

If you found the post insulting, you obviously read into my post far more than I wrote. No venue is perfect. I was describing what I observed to be a serious flaw in the testing program. No more...no less.

As far as not being qualified to have an opinion because I have not tried it... that simply does not wash with me. I have attended and competed... with some success... in AF, USCSDA and AKC trials at both the local and the championship level. I said at the beginning of my post that I did not do hunt tests because I prefer a different type of dog. That is not a knock on hunt tests or the dogs and handlers who do them. It is simply a statement of my personal preference.

I do not shoot competitively, but I can tell you I much prefer a round of skeet to a round of trap, especially as a tuneup for the upland bird season. I can also state that I do not care for the straight up into the stratosphere shot that seems to be a part of almost every sporting clays course. Most often I do not even waste a shot. I would rather shoot at the bounding rabbit target, even though I have never seen any kind of rabbit have a six to eight ft. vertical component to their jump.

I have watched, with some interest and enjoyment, several hunt tests...more than enough to know that it is not something I would care to participate in. I appreciate a dog for what it is and what it does, but I have my preferences and by this time, I do believe I have a pretty fair idea of what it is I am looking at.
I don't apologize for that.

RayG

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:45 am

millerms06 wrote:A couple of gripes is that clubs need to be more creative in how they use grounds. A dog isn't going to want to stick in an area that has no cover.
A dog will stay in that area if it:

1. only ranges thirty yards from the handler or sometimes less on a consistent basis
2. Is not allowed to independently work a field based solely on natural instincts

With my hunt test experiences, I saw more pointing dogs not ranging very far and the "birdy" objectives are out of bounds. I also met show dog owners that were there to obtain one level and they expressed that their dogs wouldn't cut the next level of standards or would not be allowed to try. I even witnessed a breeder bring a whole litter and their owners to test each dog. Sounds like a normal thing to do, but some of the dogs and owners looked really wet behind the ears with the concept of hunting.

At one hunt test, the whole field really had no cover. The dogs were let go upwind of the bird field. My dog's bracemate handled close and was trotting around somewhat keen to the handler. When I let my dog go she immediately was searching for a bird. After she made a few passes in the neutral field she basically said screw this and started hunting in the direction where the birds were. The judges were like "call your dog back". Why so her bracemate can keep up? If the dog doesn't fit the bill of working the field at an efficient pace, don't try to fault the dog that is. I am also not going to correct my dog if she smells birds either. It is pretty hard to say she wasn't smelling birds when you are running in a field that looks like it was mowed, and you design a course where the dog will have to travel to the bird field with a constant 20 mph wind flirting the scent in their faces.

Which brings up another point which I will probably get flack for but it would be hard to disagree: at what pace the handler and dog work a field. If they are efficient and productive at the pace they are going, and are walking, why slow them down? I overheard a few judges comment on how my dog runs and how I walk a field. I keep up with her just fine. For how short I am, I cover ground pretty quick and like my dogs to do the same. But I can see where the opposite opinion would be if the one commenting is grabbing cigarettes as if they were licorice, comments like they have too many drinks at the local watering hole, or is huffing and puffing because they are not in as equal shape as the handler and dog. I feel sorry for a judge that has me and my dog as the last one to go, but I do not feel it appropriate to accommodate the judge's deteriorating physical stamina. My dog and I should be treated equally to the first dog and handler's hunting pace potential. I know that judging is not a lucrative position, and the position is a taxing job on both fronts. My dad judged AKC beagle trials for many many years in conditions that would make AKC pointing dog venues look like a race track. Those judges were victim to following the dogs on foot: try telling forty or so beagles to slow down in cedar swamps! They all knew the responsibility and the integrity to uphold the game they call field trialing.

And just so we are all clear, this is coming from someone that really wants to be a judge...not someone that complains for the sake of complaining...
+1

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by uplandrsb » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:25 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas.. you basically just re worded my post.. Bottom line, dogs should handle all birds as i mentioned.. i said better birds would be nice, not an excuse.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:24 pm

uplandrsb wrote:Brazosvalleyvizslas.. you basically just re worded my post.. Bottom line, dogs should handle all birds as i mentioned.. i said better birds would be nice, not an excuse.
I understand and agree. I was addressing the whole thread and did'nt intend to point you out. i'm just not very good at expressing myself.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:17 pm

Tooling wrote:
millerms06 wrote:A couple of gripes is that clubs need to be more creative in how they use grounds. A dog isn't going to want to stick in an area that has no cover.
A dog will stay in that area if it:

1. only ranges thirty yards from the handler or sometimes less on a consistent basis
2. Is not allowed to independently work a field based solely on natural instincts

With my hunt test experiences, I saw more pointing dogs not ranging very far and the "birdy" objectives are out of bounds. I also met show dog owners that were there to obtain one level and they expressed that their dogs wouldn't cut the next level of standards or would not be allowed to try. I even witnessed a breeder bring a whole litter and their owners to test each dog. Sounds like a normal thing to do, but some of the dogs and owners looked really wet behind the ears with the concept of hunting.

At one hunt test, the whole field really had no cover. The dogs were let go upwind of the bird field. My dog's bracemate handled close and was trotting around somewhat keen to the handler. When I let my dog go she immediately was searching for a bird. After she made a few passes in the neutral field she basically said screw this and started hunting in the direction where the birds were. The judges were like "call your dog back". Why so her bracemate can keep up? If the dog doesn't fit the bill of working the field at an efficient pace, don't try to fault the dog that is. I am also not going to correct my dog if she smells birds either. It is pretty hard to say she wasn't smelling birds when you are running in a field that looks like it was mowed, and you design a course where the dog will have to travel to the bird field with a constant 20 mph wind flirting the scent in their faces.

Which brings up another point which I will probably get flack for but it would be hard to disagree: at what pace the handler and dog work a field. If they are efficient and productive at the pace they are going, and are walking, why slow them down? I overheard a few judges comment on how my dog runs and how I walk a field. I keep up with her just fine. For how short I am, I cover ground pretty quick and like my dogs to do the same. But I can see where the opposite opinion would be if the one commenting is grabbing cigarettes as if they were licorice, comments like they have too many drinks at the local watering hole, or is huffing and puffing because they are not in as equal shape as the handler and dog. I feel sorry for a judge that has me and my dog as the last one to go, but I do not feel it appropriate to accommodate the judge's deteriorating physical stamina. My dog and I should be treated equally to the first dog and handler's hunting pace potential. I know that judging is not a lucrative position, and the position is a taxing job on both fronts. My dad judged AKC beagle trials for many many years in conditions that would make AKC pointing dog venues look like a race track. Those judges were victim to following the dogs on foot: try telling forty or so beagles to slow down in cedar swamps! They all knew the responsibility and the integrity to uphold the game they call field trialing.

And just so we are all clear, this is coming from someone that really wants to be a judge...not someone that complains for the sake of complaining...
+1
Should add a caveat...I have no problem slowing it down for somebody and think it's kind of cold not to do so. If I was hunting with somebody that needed things slowed down I would gladly oblige so heck why not in a test if for no other reason than common courtesy. If pup couldn't handle standing birds that long I would see that as a hole and put some work into that however don't knock him if he is in control but at a distance..that's my dog doing what he does..and it's effective. That said, I agree with what you're saying as I've experienced this quite a bit in tests sponsored by clubs focused on different breeds and felt like the judges wanted to see a dog perform in a "certain fashion". That's not to say he was judged differently but he has been knocked for not wanting to break a point and I have been all but screamed at to get my dog "out of there"..that's really not cool...this has happened IN the bird field and I don't particularly like being screamed at. It was not a case where my dog prized already and it was an attempt to give his brace the area...heck on that day his brace had not even gotten to the bird field yet. Also insisting that pup be pulled off birds he is staunch on is just not something I ever want to do but have been met with insistence to do despite my requesting we go to him...that really really confused my pup and once he came to me he quit hunting out of confusion and got knocked for that. Not the end of the world but it made little sense to me and didn't seem all that fair to pup. What I learned and am learning, that day...I just should have said, "no, we're going to pup" and if the judge remained insistent I should have said ok..I'm going to pup to flush the bird, fail him if you have to. My pup searches pretty good and typically ends up where the birds are..that's what I want and if I can keep him in range at the edge of the comfort zone and especially if he will cast back in upon command what the heck?? We're talking "maybe" 125/150 yds here max...not 300. I can honestly say that running pup in Junior hurt him but did benefit him running as a brace...still shouldn't have done it though as I think the benefit did not outweigh.

Another thing that I don't really care for on premise. I don't like a 20/30 minute test that pup has prized inside of ten minutes and have the judges tell you to hold your dog. I get it if the brace needs the room/advantage to prize as that courtesy should ALWAYS prevail. As I said...I get it but I just don't like the premise to hold your dog so he/she doesn't foul up...forgive me for being so bold but how much confidence do you really have in your dog if that's the best defense? As I said, I get it and the judge wants you to keep your prize, that's cool...I just think that utterly contradicts the whole gig. Heck..if both dogs have prized...let 'em hunt for fun for the remainder of the time even if you have to continue judging them. I get it if it's with minutes remaining..because then your likely going to affect the schedule as nobody likes to just "stop" in the middle of a pinned bird or something...or so I would guess.
Last edited by Tooling on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:04 pm

If I struggled to get my dog that last successful test and for one reason or another just couldn't get it done time and time again nearing the end of season..I would perhaps beg the judge to let me know the moment he prized and could I please call him in :|

..but still

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by dan v » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:26 pm

Tooling wrote:Another thing that I don't really care for on premise. I don't like a 20/30 minute test that pup has prized inside of ten minutes and have the judges tell you to hold your dog. I get it if the brace needs the room/advantage to prize as that courtesy should ALWAYS prevail. As I said...I get it but I just don't like the premise to hold your dog so he/she doesn't "f" up...forgive me for being so bold but how much confidence do you really have in your dog if that's the best defense? As I said, I get it and the judge wants you to keep your prize, that's cool...I just think that utterly contradicts the whole gig. Heck..if both dogs have prized...let 'em hunt for fun for the remainder of the time even if you have to continue judging them. I get it if it's with minutes remaining..because then your likely going to affect the schedule as nobody likes to just "stop" in the middle of a pinned bird or something...or so I would guess.
No dog has "prized" until the allotted time has been run. You hunt the dog the entire time, (minus time in a water trough for safety) or you hunting score is gonna take a beatin. If I'm judging and if your dog has a find (MH/SH) and you head to the pool to cool your dog, fine. It had better be hot, and if I get the feeling you're stalling to avoid a back or another find, I'm gonna inform you what is going to happen to the Hunting score.

I've had handlers, of slower methodical dogs ask to have the bracemate held up in the birdfield so that there is still a brd for them to find. Too bad, get hustling, that's the luck of the draw.

Now why are HT's lacking in participation? IMO, the lifestyle of people has changed. As cjhills mentioned, back in the mid 1990's, HT's were a social event. It was more of a owner/handler/trainer event. People would arrive Friday, pitch their tents, park their campers and we drank a few adult beverages by a fire ring. The next morning we'd run dogs like 50/day...that evening we'd grill, quail/chukar breasts on the grill and then solve all the dog problems that evening.

That all went by the wayside. People decided it was easier to hire it done, so instead of 30 people running dogs, we got a pro running a dozen MH/SH dogs, another running 6-8 JH dogs. If the owner did show up it was to receive the ribbon. Now what did that do to the sport? Well it really narrowed the pool of people availible to run the tests...and more importantly, the pool of potential judges got pretty small as well. Note to judge an AKC HT, you need to have qualified a dog at the level you judge at, apprentice and take the test. Gunners? Who makes the best gunners at a HT? People that are working dogs. Now you have fewer and fewer working dogs.

And to Ray..the beauty of a HT is you get to bring the dog you like. You like'em running to the horizon? Great! You don't have to bring the dog the judges prefer, like at FT. If he/she fills out the scorecard you'll pass. But that high powered dog rests on the double edged sword.

I too, dislike negative judging...if I looked hard enough, I could fail them all. But I prefer to see the positives, with in the rules, and should there be a questionable situation...side with the dog.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:01 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Tooling wrote:Another thing that I don't really care for on premise. I don't like a 20/30 minute test that pup has prized inside of ten minutes and have the judges tell you to hold your dog. I get it if the brace needs the room/advantage to prize as that courtesy should ALWAYS prevail. As I said...I get it but I just don't like the premise to hold your dog so he/she doesn't "f" up...forgive me for being so bold but how much confidence do you really have in your dog if that's the best defense? As I said, I get it and the judge wants you to keep your prize, that's cool...I just think that utterly contradicts the whole gig. Heck..if both dogs have prized...let 'em hunt for fun for the remainder of the time even if you have to continue judging them. I get it if it's with minutes remaining..because then your likely going to affect the schedule as nobody likes to just "stop" in the middle of a pinned bird or something...or so I would guess.

I too, dislike negative judging...if I looked hard enough, I could fail them all. But I prefer to see the positives, with in the rules, and should there be a questionable situation...side with the dog.
Based upon your description I would have ZERO problem with the way that you judge. I do believe you should yield to your brace-mate if your dog has done well even if being asked to take pup to another end of the field in lieu of bringing him in. Wouldn't be upset if you did not allow that though. The only time I would maybe take exception with that hard line is in junior where somebody's dog was doing well but maybe just has a little too much puppy in them. That dog would benefit from not having another dog distracting and possibly even rushing in and stealing the bird (pointing).

The judges in the same club I described above which I will not name, tend to be favorable to a dog of a certain breed...they seem to side against a fast Shorthair when benefit is in doubt. Once had pup out of sight having chased a bird his bracemate bumped but we knew where he was generally...was told to call him in and we heard crickets..three minutes later you could hear my dog crash through the grass 40/50 yards ahead and a quail flew over the judges head from the grass...he knocked my dog hard for cooperation..it was his second Junior hunt test and it would have been obvious to my Grandma that pup was on point the whole time. <sigh>...I took my lump quietly but just shook my head. Judges prerogative and that's ok but geez man..really...in Junior.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:16 pm

Once had pup out of sight having chased a bird his bracemate bumped but we knew where he was generally...was told to call him in and we heard crickets..three minutes later you could hear my dog crash through the grass 40/50 yards ahead and a quail flew over the judges head from the grass...he knocked my dog hard for cooperation..it was his second Junior hunt test and it would have been obvious to my Grandma that pup was on point the whole time.

It was your job as the handler to locate your dog, not the judges' job to guess where he was and what he was doing.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Absolutely and I would not argue that. It was hard to tell whether pup ran off due to the landscape. My pup doesn't generally run off but the judge couldn't know that and wouldn't / shouldn't make a difference anyhow. You will not get an argument out of me for that. Once it became OBVIOUS what the deal was one would think the dog would have gotten the benefit of the doubt which was the point. There were no sour grapes just a shake of the head and he didn't just knock him he knocked him hard although he ran fine the rest of that day. Guess I should be totally forthcoming though...on the way to the bird-field my dog ran a big cast and circled back, as he came around his brace was near by and my pup went in to check her out verging on playfulness so I told him to move on to which he obliged...my judges partnering judge mumbled under her breath just loud enough for us to hear, "that would hurt him in Master" in a really nasty tone...the fact that I basically told her to shut the "f" up and judge and that this was JUNIOR likely did not help my cause so I digress :|

I'll learn...some day :oops:
Last edited by Tooling on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:51 pm

And so the truth will out... :)

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Re: Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Post by Tooling » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:03 pm

shags wrote:And so the truth will out... :)
:oops:

It was an isolated incident, I swear :lol:

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