Soooooo..what is wrong w/ AKC Hunt Tests

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:38 pm

SOOOOOOOOOO, what's wrong with hunt tests. HANDLERS disrepecting judges !!! I hope you got a suspension for your actions !!!!

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:SOOOOOOOOOO, what's wrong with hunt tests. HANDLERS disrepecting judges !!! I hope you got a suspension for your actions !!!!

Of course I didn't...that would be lame. It seriously was an isolated incident and this particular person has been told much worse due to her snotty attitude toward people that do not own a breed that is not under your feet. She likes to be snotty about applying NAVHDA rules to AKC rules and vice/versa as she does not realize there is a different set of rules between the two. She got what she deserved.

On that note, I am a grown man and should not have stooped to that level myself but rather should have just kept my mouth shut and run my dog...lesson learned. They kinda' took it out on my dog that day but I didn't fuss about it but rather just took my lump. A judge should hold themselves to a certain standard as well..should I have gotten an AKC rep..of course not..that would be lame. How would you justify her comment? I can assure you it was not just a matter of fact statement.

And actually.. I believe my exact words were , "well thank goodness this isn't a master test so i would appreciate it if you would judge my dog and let me run him in his junior test"..so no..I didn't actually tell her to shut the "f" up but it certainly could have been interpreted that way....sorry for the vulgarity.

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:52 pm

Tooling wrote:Absolutely and I would not argue that. It was hard to tell whether pup ran off due to the landscape. My pup doesn't generally run off but the judge couldn't know that and wouldn't / shouldn't make a difference anyhow. You will not get an argument out of me for that. Once it became OBVIOUS what the deal was one would think the dog would have gotten the benefit of the doubt which was the point. There were no sour grapes just a shake of the head and he didn't just knock him he knocked him hard although he ran fine the rest of that day. Guess I should be totally forthcoming though...on the way to the bird-field my dog ran a big cast and circled back, as he came around his brace was near by and my pup went in to check her out verging on playfulness so I told him to move on to which he obliged...my judges partnering judge mumbled under her breath just loud enough for us to hear, "that would hurt him in Master" in a really nasty tone...the fact that I basically told her to shut the "f" up and judge and that this was JUNIOR likely did not help my cause so I digress

I'll learn...some day

You answered your own question with this post it's not the hunt test with the problem.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:55 pm

Ok..you are right.

Carry on

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:16 pm

Tooling wrote:She likes to be snotty about applying NAVHDA rules to AKC rules and vice/versa as she does not realize there is a different set of rules between the two.

Navhda rules are more relaxed then AKC when comparing NA work to JH work in the field. Because she said under her breath to the other judge "that would hurt him in Master". I tell ya I know many NAVHDA / AKC judges and they are very polite folks.

Of course I didn't...that would be lame.

Why, You want to cuz at any judge in any game you should be history. Myself I don't care how the cookie is crumbling out there I always thank the judges for being there.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:18 pm

After reading all of this, I think hunting tests must be a bit different here in the Midwest. we generally have large areas for tests usually with back courses where birds are blanked and bird fields or continuous courses with gunners all the way. The handlers set the pace and pretty much decide between themselves where they will go in the field one judge goes with each handler. I try to stay away from the bracemate as much as possible. Little or no conversation between the judges and the handlers once the dogs leave the line. I have run some very big running dogs and if they handle a bit and keep some contact it is pretty exciting. I like dogs on the edge. It takes a fairly good dog to get a qualifying score in everything. It is more than just getting through clean.
I am convinced that most mn. judges( Dan included) would DQ their mothers dog. I have seen very little favoritism, nor do I expect any. Again I do know the rules as well as the judges. the grey areas cause some issues. I know the judges and I know my dogs I don't get upset with low scores or excited over high scores A Q is a Q the score don't count if it is a 42 average and all over 4.
We have good judges and better judges bad judge don't last long around here. Cj

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:22 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Tooling wrote:She likes to be snotty about applying NAVHDA rules to AKC rules and vice/versa as she does not realize there is a different set of rules between the two.
Navhda rules are more relaxed then AKC when comparing NA work to JH work in the field. Because she said under her breath to the other judge "that would hurt him in Master". I tell ya I know many NAVHDA / AKC judges and they are very polite folks.

Of course I didn't...that would be lame.

Why, You want to cuz at any judge in any game you should be history. Myself I don't care how the cookie is crumbling out there I always thank the judges for being there.

See above edit

I would never respond like that if she was matter-a-factly saying that to another judge, or anybody else for that matter..you did not read the description accurately and it raised the heads of I guess about 4/5 people when she said it. I also thank the judges and the secretary at the end of the day. All due respect but if all vulgarity was grounds for suspension around here...there sure wouldn't be too many judges or participants left. In the absence of children and new faces of course.

She applies AKC rules to NAVHDA N/A tests etc and then gets snippy and all mighty because she's a judge when people try to explain the difference or correct her. It's their club and most of the folks are great so if they want her there it is their choice. I don't have to attend that one particular club but choose to do so as it is generally pretty fun and good grounds along with good people in general. This is NOT the norm for other clubs in the area.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Tooling wrote:She applies AKC rules to NAVHDA N/A tests etc and then gets snippy and all mighty because she's a judge when people try to explain the difference or correct her

I thought this was about AKC Tests. In NAVHDA there are 3 judges. When judges see things differently the senior judge has final say.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:04 pm

cjhills wrote:After reading all of this, I think hunting tests must be a bit different here in the Midwest. we generally have large areas for tests usually with back courses where birds are blanked and bird fields or continuous courses with gunners all the way. The handlers set the pace and pretty much decide between themselves where they will go in the field one judge goes with each handler. I try to stay away from the bracemate as much as possible. Little or no conversation between the judges and the handlers once the dogs leave the line. I have run some very big running dogs and if they handle a bit and keep some contact it is pretty exciting. I like dogs on the edge. It takes a fairly good dog to get a qualifying score in everything. It is more than just getting through clean.
I am convinced that most mn. judges( Dan included) would DQ their mothers dog. I have seen very little favoritism, nor do I expect any. Again I do know the rules as well as the judges. the grey areas cause some issues. I know the judges and I know my dogs I don't get upset with low scores or excited over high scores A Q is a Q the score don't count if it is a 42 average and all over 4.
We have good judges and better judges bad judge don't last long around here. Cj

It's somewhat diverse but as a rule we do not have the wide open space that you enjoy in the Midwest or the folks out West with some exceptions of course. Our fields tend to have a straightaway that may be wide and going through a few turns until ultimately turning into the bird field. I, like you really like a dog on the edge as you put it and love that my pup gets out there...I'd let him go further if I could at least see him often but here it is just not that wide open as a rule. One thing I do like about having a fast dog is that often he will naturally separate from his brace-mate. I'm not concerned about him working as a team but at first he wanted to play a bit but only until bird contact...he becomes very competitive and I kind of like that as it seems he takes it up a notch. He gets better and better each time he runs with a bracemate paying less and less attention. The last time he ran with another dog he SLAMMED into an honor which is very encouraging as a time once before he stole another dogs point...so we will see. As a rule most judges here are very kind and very helpful certainly wanting to see you and your pup succeed. Some take the "overall" approach allowing for minor mishaps if the dog performs well or shows an exceptional trait while others are pretty black/white. I want my dog in tough hunt tests and don't necessarily want a mistake to be ignored for a great performance elsewhere...however the "overall" does seem the most appropriate at times depending on the fault. My dog is JH...but let's be honest and lets face it...that's not really saying a whole lot.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:05 pm

Tooling, here's what I can say about profanity. The effinhymer that slips in casual conversation doesn't concern me. However, you direct it at me, as a judge, my judging partner or your bracemate...trust me, there's gonna be trouble...and you're not likely going to be pleased with the outcome if you value running dogs in AKC. There's no place for that behavior.

You know the judge that is inconsiderate... Don't enter, and make your reason known to the club.

I judge dogs, I don't help you handle. You ask me question on how to handle a situation, and I give you direction...I may not be right, but you won't be wrong.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:20 pm

PLEASE READ THE EDIT...THERE WAS NO PROFANITY USED TOWARD THIS WOMAN...WHAT I SAID TO HER WAS TANTAMOUNT TO A PROFANE COMMENT OFTEN USED.

She deserved it quite frankly and I have already detailed what I should have done which was to keep my mouth shut.. wyndancer you are spot on...Don't enter, and make your reason known to the club and I addressed it in my post the same way that you are suggesting.

Holding a "position" comes with responsibility..but no, that does not excuse my asking her to "butt out" in a not so kind fashion as that is stooping. Asking her to butt out was not inappropriate on premise. Why should a judge be commenting like that?

My dog gets jumped by his brace-mate and the handler does nothing about it and does not stop it (been there before)...I just might tell the person to control their dog...and there might be some choice words in the request if there is aggression. But just throwing profanity out there..of course not.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:16 pm

It is never proper or productive to tell a judge how to do their job. You would have been better served just saying thank you, with the problems you have reported getting JH passes, it is resonable for her to assume you wouldn't know MH rules. I see nothing offensive in her comment regardless of the tone.

It is not that you don't know that is of concern. It is that you don't know you don't know.

Neil

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:18 pm

You tell a person to shut the F up and you don't feel that's disrespect to the judge. There must be a huge generation gap between you and I. Sugar coat all you want, all I'm hearing is justifing behavior.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:22 pm

What problems getting JH passes? Huh..what did I miss?

And yes, you are right I should have kept my mouth shut. Does not make her behavior appropriate and as I said there were 4 or 5 others there that came to attention in response to her comment. I never told her how to judge...I asked her to judge.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:24 pm

Tooling wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:SOOOOOOOOOO, what's wrong with hunt tests. HANDLERS disrepecting judges !!! I hope you got a suspension for your actions !!!!
Of course I didn't...that would be lame. It seriously was an isolated incident and this particular person has been told much worse due to her snotty attitude toward people that do not own a breed that is not under your feet. She likes to be snotty about applying NAVHDA rules to AKC rules and vice/versa as she does not realize there is a different set of rules between the two. She got what she deserved.

On that note, I am a grown man and should not have stooped to that level myself but rather should have just kept my mouth shut and run my dog...lesson learned. They kinda' took it out on my dog that day but I didn't fuss about it but rather just took my lump. A judge should hold themselves to a certain standard as well..should I have gotten an AKC rep..of course not..that would be lame. How would you justify her comment? I can assure you it was not just a matter of fact statement.

And actually.. I believe my exact words were , "well thank goodness this isn't a master test so i would appreciate it if you would judge my dog and let me run him in his junior test"..so no..I didn't actually tell her to shut the "f" up but it certainly could have been interpreted that way....sorry for the vulgarity.

Ms. Cage...no it would be quite the generation gap for that to be the case....See edit ^ from above post that I have referenced several times now

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:38 pm

Most any well bred and trained dog should get a JH in 4 attemts, you have reported enough unique events for a dozen entries! How many did it take?

You really need to learn what you don't know, and a little humility would help.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:03 pm

Neil wrote:Most any well bred and trained dog should get a JH in 4 attemts, you have reported enough unique events for a dozen entries! How many did it take?

You really need to learn what you don't know, and a little humility would help.

It took 5 for pup...he was picked up once. I am at a loss for what unique events you are referring to...I recall vaguely referencing one that occurred during his first test...the one when he got picked up.

I've been around testing on and off for a lot of years, just never had the notion to run any of my own dogs so never really got into the particulars so that makes me a newcomer.

Neil...here we go again..stop, you do not know me and you do not know what I do or where I come from. Being arrogant lacking humility would not have gotten me even to the modest spot that I am today so please just stop that nonsense. I know you have taken pride in the past about having "taught me" something but I am certain that you are flattering yourself with all respect. I don't know you either and will not presume to know anything about you.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that HT judges do not have words with participants...quite FREQUENTLY...boy I must really be in the wrong geographic area...lol

Are you saying these issues do not exist in hunt tests or are you just so utterly offended by a newcomer saying it?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:06 pm

ahhh Marylanders, I know cause i am from there

So glad to be gone !

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:09 pm

birddog1968 wrote:ahhh Marylanders, I know cause i am from there So glad to be gone !

And cannot WAIT to get out...lol

Can you back me up here...this stuff sound familiar? ...is it just the area or what?

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:15 pm

Neil wrote:Most any well bred and trained dog should get a JH in 4 attemts, you have reported enough unique events for a dozen entries! How many did it take?

You really need to learn what you don't know, and a little humility would help.

x10

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:18 pm

I didn't say judges don't talk, said it was not appropiate for you to talk back disrespectfully.

And you have not earned the right to tell me to stop anything.

I don't need or want to know you, in fact, I know too much, and little I like.

If you would think before you post, you would not have to delete and edit so much.

Neil

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:26 pm

And who is it that's arrogant?

I believe that paying my premium earns me the right to run my dog in a test and have him judged per AKC guidelines. In no way does it buy the right to be disrespectful...you are right. You also prove the point. Judges should not be hacking on handlers unless it is to assure their bracemate is afforded the same opportunity to be judged per AKC guidelines.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:01 pm

I hear what you are saying Tooling. I've trialed /tested for 20 + years. I can remember times when I felt I didn't get a fair shake - and was angry - but that's part of the game. The Judge does his/her best I believe , but he /she is not always right on. They are not perfect. These are the times when our character is tested. I prefer to smile and carry on and MAybe talk to the Judge later. For every time I felt cheated , there are the times when the Judge gave me the benefit of the doubt/break.
I can remember several people who "lost it" stomped off hollering . They are long gone now. If it bothers someone that much , the sport is not for them.

PS I enjoy watching sports. The refs don't always get it right. The classy guys , bite their tongue and skate off. The immature make a big scene.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:14 pm

Sharon wrote:I hear what you are saying Tooling. I've trialed /tested for 20 + years. I can remember times when I felt I didn't get a fair shake - and was angry - but that's part of the game. The Judge does his/her best I believe , but he /she is not always right on. They are not perfect. These are the times when our character is tested. I prefer to smile and carry on and MAybe talk to the Judge later. For every time I felt cheated , there are the times when the Judge gave me the benefit of the doubt/break.
I can remember several people who "lost it" stomped off hollering . They are long gone now. If it bothers someone that much , the sport is not for them.

PS I enjoy watching sports. The refs don't always get it right. The classy guys , bite their tongue and skate off. The immature make a big scene.

How dare you imply that it is permissible for judges or referees to be imperfect humans like the rest of us!

Well said. If you don't want your dog judged on subjective criteria, find a venue that awards for points, backs, and retrieves, then play that game.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:14 pm

This has been a interesting read. I don't have a ton of experience in HT's but I gun in the tests our club puts on. Maybe its just different from area to area, but here almost all of our hunt test judges are the same people that compete and judge in Field trials. At least half the dogs I see at the local hunt tests are the same dogs I watch every weekend in spring and fall at the trials etc.....We shoot birds on course and it represents hunting as good as you can in my mind. We get some show people that show up and run dogs, and sometimes they actually do pretty decent, the ones that just trot down the horse path don't pass.....
Personally our tests are very very small, I don't really know why, but I know that I don't run my dogs in tests because.....well because it seems like a lot of money to spend to win or not win a ribbon doing the same thing we do in training......I love field trials, but the level of dog work is usually better, and I like the competition....
If I was a breeder I would probably have a different outlook. I will definitely say that a master level dog has shown itself to be a good dog in my opinion.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:01 am

Birddog im from MD. Its a sorry a$$ state to say the least now adays the only thing they have going for them is steamed crabs.

Here on the eastcoast most of the HT test grounds are small my guys can cover most courses in about 5-8 minutes or less if i dont reel them in. I hate when you get a judge that wants to keep the dog in too close. I refuse to call my guys inless i can see them becouse they could be on point somewhere. They always check in. HT used to be place you could showcase your dogs with tons of people amd entries now its hardly enough dogs entered for a couple braces.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:15 am

So...how 'bout we get back to figuring out what is wrong with HT's....what drives or doesn't drive participation?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:32 am

Hattrick wrote:Birddog im from MD. Its a sorry a$$ state to say the least now adays the only thing they have going for them is steamed crabs.

Here on the eastcoast most of the HT test grounds are small my guys can cover most courses in about 5-8 minutes or less if i dont reel them in. I hate when you get a judge that wants to keep the dog in too close. I refuse to call my guys inless i can see them becouse they could be on point somewhere. They always check in. HT used to be place you could showcase your dogs with tons of people amd entries now its hardly enough dogs entered for a couple braces.

Delaware crabs are better. A little saltier too. I should know...I am one.

Seriously, the grounds do tend to be smaller heareabouts, so the courses are tighter. The entries do seem to have slipped in recent years, but they have slipped in area trials also. it is rare to see folks at a hunt test and at a trial... usually it is one or the other, unless they are involved in running the event. It is even rarer to see the same dogs at both types of events.

RayG

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:53 am

I used to participate in HT's, but no longer. Many reasons for it I guess. One, I was a lot younger and didn't mind all that walking so much. Two I did it because people said FT dogs couldn't do it, so I wanted to prove them wrong. And Ray.... have multiple MH titles on FC's. Many of our GWP folks who trial will also put a MH on their dogs just to show the dogs are capable of switching gears. Can't say about other breeds.

I stopped when the judging got a bit , well, shall we say tight. Dogs were being failed for some of the most trivial reasons, our judges forgot to look at the entire picture of the dogs performance and were looking for reasons to fail a dog. I also wasn't happy with the fact that many of the HT judges were starting to walk and judge on the east coast. They were tired and they could not see the good things a dog might be doing out there. In fact, the last test I entered the judges were walking... my dog messed up and failed so no sour grapes from me.

I didn't make a decision not to do it any longer, just didn't enter any more dogs. I've learned and appreciate that dog work isn't quite as Black and White as our HT regs say it should be, and I guess I just like the ambience of trials more.

With all that, I find nothing really wrong with hunt tests if that is what you want to do. And I am all for people taking their dogs out and working them and hopefully getting titled. Yes, there are bad grounds, there are bad judges. But all in all, there are more good guys then bad. There will always be attrition, people who run Juniors but don't want to, or don't know how to go further. There are folks who just want to go have fun with their dogs and don't want to do all the hard work it takes to get that MH title. So be it, good for them!

Some interesting stats.....
2001 there were 437 HT's
2011- 473
2012 450 HTs

2001- 14,019 dogs entered in HT's
2011-12,024 entered
2012- 12,111 entered

By class
2001
MH entered- 2620
SH- 2999
JH-8400

2011
MH-2963
SH-2750
JH-6256

2012
MH-3140
SH-2704
JH-6196

Compared to Field Trials.....
2001- 38,922 entered
2011- 32,317
2012-32,376

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 am

Ms. Cage wrote:I tell ya I know many NAVHDA / AKC judges and they are very polite folks.

I think we should keep NAVHDA Judges out of this discussion, as I knew/know many of them who were/are very polite folks as well.

These same people also had no problem giving a dog a "4" in Search in a Utility level test and the dog never worked
more than 35 yards away from it's handler. Really? A four?!?!? Because if the dog doesn't get a 4 in Search, they can't qualify for a Prize 1. :roll:

Rob

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:32 am

If you get your entries in today you can run 4 times at Kelly Farms in Mn. GSPCMN and MN. Brittney Club double. You can see Wyndancer in the saddle. That alone is worth the trip.
GSPCMN judges will be on four wheelers. MBC judges will be on horses.
The big number of entries we used to have are probably a thing of the past. This is due to several issues. Not that hunt tests are good or bad. Economy is a factor. If you do not draw trainers with fairly large amount of dogs, numbers will be down and as numbers drop so do profits and clubs stop having tests. I am quite sure the same is true for trials. Our walking trial two weeks ago drew fairly good numbers, but if the trainers with big strings were not there it would have been a different story. We encourage our puppy buyers to run their dogs but most have families and not a lot of time. There is also a intimidation factor, some caused by people who think they were treated badly.
We see more and more of the little league parent attitude. If my kid is not on a winning team, change teams. High School sport teams and little league teams recruiting players. It can't be the kids fault so it must be the coach, the umpire or some other factor. This transfer to life in general and in this case the dogs. You need a bit of a thick skin when you start testing because most times you will fail. At least at the master level. If your dog DQs it is highly unlikely that it was the judges fault, the gunners fault, bad birds or whatever. There is no such thing as handler error, just dogs not trained good enough. DON'T BLAME THE JUDGE. No matter how bad the judge is if the dog does it right he will pass.
What to do to change things is the big question. Breed clubs having more training days. I thing NAVHDA's marketing is the best thing they have going for them. We could take a lesson from that.
Wish I had answers. Maybe Hunting tests are Dinosaurs. If so trials will be next...........................
Pheasants are down 60 to 80 percent in SD. Whats a bird hunter to do?.................................................CJ

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:36 am

Wyndancer wrote:So...how 'bout we get back to figuring out what is wrong with HT's....

Some interesting stats.....
2001 there were 437 HT's
2011- 473
2012 450 HTs

2001- 14,019 dogs entered in HT's
2011-12,024 entered
2012- 12,111 entered

By class
2001
MH entered- 2620
SH- 2999
JH-8400

2011
MH-2963
SH-2750
JH-6256

2012
MH-3140
SH-2704
JH-6196

Maybe nothing?

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:37 am

cjhills wrote: We see more and more of the little league parent attitude. If my kid is not on a winning team, change teams. High School sport teams and little league teams recruiting players. It can't be the kids fault so it must be the coach, the umpire or some other factor. This transfer to life in general and in this case the dogs. You need a bit of a thick skin when you start testing because most times you will fail. At least at the master level. If your dog DQs it is highly unlikely that it was the judges fault, the gunners fault, bad birds or whatever. There is no such thing as handler error, just dogs not trained good enough. DON'T BLAME THE JUDGE. No matter how bad the judge is if the dog does it right he will pass.

x2

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:32 am

Are those stats for just pointing dog hunting tests?

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:39 am

Keep in mind that in FT's dogs are allowed to enter more than one event (as an example Open GD, Am Gun Dog. limited AGD, limited OGD) and in HT they are only allowed to enter once. So I'm not sure what's been counted.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:52 am

slistoe wrote:
cjhills wrote: We see more and more of the little league parent attitude. If my kid is not on a winning team, change teams. High School sport teams and little league teams recruiting players. It can't be the kids fault so it must be the coach, the umpire or some other factor. This transfer to life in general and in this case the dogs. You need a bit of a thick skin when you start testing because most times you will fail. At least at the master level. If your dog DQs it is highly unlikely that it was the judges fault, the gunners fault, bad birds or whatever. There is no such thing as handler error, just dogs not trained good enough. DON'T BLAME THE JUDGE. No matter how bad the judge is if the dog does it right he will pass.
x2

On all of this we are in agreement. I see that kind of attitudes in the trial arena as well. I also agree that the title, Master Hunter, should really mean something special, so it should NOT be easy.

To me, Junior Hunter should mean...this dog has the minimum skills needed to be allowed to hunt, off leash, in the field. Senior hunter, to me should mean...this is a pretty nice dog, well trained and a good solid hunter that anyone should be pleased to hunt behind.

Master Hunter, to me, means this is a completely finished dog that you can put down anywhere, in any company, and expect a high class performance and a fantastic day afield with a minimum of directions to the dog and a maximum of enjoying the hunt.

RayG

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:04 am

Yes Neil, they were stats from just pointing breeds. I did a quickie search on AKCs website just out of curiosity to see if numbers were indeed down.

And yes, of course the numbers for trials are a bit different because of the reasons you gave. Just found them interesting as a comparison.

HT's are what they are, you love em, hate em, tolerate em.....but all in all it's a place to bring pointing dogs to see if indeed they can still do what they "should be" bred to do. We'll never agree on the right way for them to do those things though! Guess that's what keeps us all coming back for more?

Happy Fall season to you all! go hunting, trialing or testing...your dogs will thank you for it

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:09 pm

fuzznut wrote:Yes Neil, they were stats from just pointing breeds. I did a quickie search on AKCs website just out of curiosity to see if numbers were indeed down.

And yes, of course the numbers for trials are a bit different because of the reasons you gave. Just found them interesting as a comparison.

HT's are what they are, you love em, hate em, tolerate em.....but all in all it's a place to bring pointing dogs to see if indeed they can still do what they "should be" bred to do. We'll never agree on the right way for them to do those things though! Guess that's what keeps us all coming back for more?

Happy Fall season to you all! go hunting, trialing or testing...your dogs will thank you for it

Thanks for doing the work, I found it very interesting.

When I attended my first trial in 1963, they were talking about the death of the sport.

Carolina Gundogs · Post by **Carolina Gundogs** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:27 pm

Whether a person likes, dislikes, agrees or disagrees with a judge at a HT (or field trial), I believe they are owed a certain amount of respect for what they have volunteered to put themselves through. I can say that I have ended up very good friends with judges who at sometime or another failed a dog I had entered.

If the dog handles the work at the correct level expected, they will most likely pass.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Jagerdawg wrote:
Neil wrote:Most any well bred and trained dog should get a JH in 4 attemts, you have reported enough unique events for a dozen entries! How many did it take?

You really need to learn what you don't know, and a little humility would help.
x10

unless of course the bird field is up hill in a bowl and by the time the judges get there the young dog who was pointing according to the gunners waiting there and the dog finally couldn't handle it anymore bird moved and when the judges finally made up up the hill the judges gave a 0 on point (you can't judge what you can't see) and a 7 on bird finding ability.

Another judge was ready to score this same dog low because he ran to big for his liking Thankfully the other judge was also a field trial judge and explained to the other judge how that run was desired for field trials.

Things we do for entertainment

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:19 pm

I had the Judges arrive late once and when they got there the other handler told them that my dog had stolen his dog's point. (Didn't happen.) Every event is always exciting. LOL

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Sharon wrote:I had the Judges arrive late once and when they got there the other handler told them that my dog had stolen his dog's point. (Didn't happen.) Every event is always exciting. LOL

At a JH?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:22 pm

cjhills wrote: You can see Wyndancer in the saddle. That alone is worth the trip.

I'll be a in a sadde alright, but it will be at Branched Oak in the AGD stake.

cjhills wrote:Pheasants are down 60 to 80 percent in SD. Whats a bird hunter to do?.................................................CJ

He hops in the truck with you and heads to MT.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:25 pm

slistoe wrote: Maybe nothing?

Nationwide? Maybe nothing....in specific geographic areas?...maybe something.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:28 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
Sharon wrote:I had the Judges arrive late once and when they got there the other handler told them that my dog had stolen his dog's point. (Didn't happen.) Every event is always exciting. LOL
At a JH?

AF walking shooting dog trial

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:38 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
cjhills wrote: You can see Wyndancer in the saddle. That alone is worth the trip.
I'll be a in a sadde alright, but it will be at Branched Oak in the AGD stake.

cjhills wrote:Pheasants are down 60 to 80 percent in SD. Whats a bird hunter to do?.................................................CJ
He hops in the truck with you and heads to MT.

Sorry. Got the wrong info

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:10 am

Hattrick wrote:Birddog im from MD. Its a sorry a$$ state to say the least now adays the only thing they have going for them is steamed crabs.

Here on the eastcoast most of the HT test grounds are small my guys can cover most courses in about 5-8 minutes or less if i dont reel them in. I hate when you get a judge that wants to keep the dog in too close. I refuse to call my guys inless i can see them becouse they could be on point somewhere. They always check in. HT used to be place you could showcase your dogs with tons of people amd entries now its hardly enough dogs entered for a couple braces.

Actually...in the dog training arena we do have something going for us not enjoyed by some states.

24/7-365 days per yr (Save opening day for Deer gun season on public ground..maybe that 1st week??) We can train bird-dogs on liberated birds of our choice (quail, chukar, ducks,etc), even shooting if we like. Of course there are some guidelines and there are areas w/restrictions at times but that's pretty cool.

Considering we now pay a tax on rain and our upcoming gun restrictions will make buying a starter pistol tantamount to purchasing a handgun (or so I'm told), that's pretty cool. VA can't even do that....not sure about PA

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:45 am

One of the things that bothers me, at least from a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) perspective, is the disparity in ability between dogs that have the same title, and how difficult it is to find information on the testing.

You could have one dog that passed all its legs it entered, with high 90's in each leg, and another dog that had to try 30 times and eeked by with any of its passes, but both dogs have the same same title, and it is difficult to find details on the scores (both at a total level and in each category), and how many times the dog was entered. One of the reasons I like NAVHDA is the fact that you can see all of that detail.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:13 pm

That's totally valid and definitely leaves things potentially ambiguous. I'm guessing that's the intent of AKC's advanced titles which still holds the same ambiguous flaw though...I think. Publishing the data would definitely be an equalizer.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:41 pm

LincolnAlexander wrote:One of the things that bothers me, at least from a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) perspective, is the disparity in ability between dogs that have the same title, and how difficult it is to find information on the testing.

You could have one dog that passed all its legs it entered, with high 90's in each leg, and another dog that had to try 30 times and eeked by with any of its passes, but both dogs have the same same title, and it is difficult to find details on the scores (both at a total level and in each category), and how many times the dog was entered. One of the reasons I like NAVHDA is the fact that you can see all of that detail.

Same for doctors.

I always hope my Dr. did well on the health problem I have.