Field Trial Judging, Pointing Dog Stake

[Chukar12]

How do you as a judge respond to the following: During a brace a dog on course is observed with a bird in its mouth. His/her brace mate is in the vicinity and may even mouth the bird on the ground when the first dog drops it within sight. You can assume the dog either retrieves the bird or leaves it, i don't think it matters as you have seen the dog with the bird. You did not see either dog in pursuit of the bird, how they came into possession you have no idea. How would you handle it? Do you react different to a cold bird, warm bird or live bird?

Just curious...
thanks, Joe

[myerstenn]

It would make a difference to me if the first dog brought back a warm bird or a bird that had obviously been dead for a long time.I would not penalize the second dog for picking it up and bringing back to its handler. If it was warm,I would pick the first dog up.

[myerstenn]

It would make a difference to me if the first dog brought back a warm bird or a bird that had obviously been dead for a long time.I would not penalize the second dog for picking it up and bringing back to its handler. If it was warm,I would pick the first dog up.

[cjuve]

Pretty simple for me... You can't judge what you did not see. A judge should not discredit a dog for an infraction that may or may not have happened, I always try to give the benifit of doubt to the dog. When in doubt I always ask myself how I would have viewed this action if I were hunting, if I would have been mad then I probably will view it as a negative action if not then it is water under the bridge . There is no difference to me if the bird is warm or cold, pen birds die on coarse all the time.

[Neil]

If I didn't see it, it did not happen.

First dog, I don't carry a thermometer and am not trained to estimate time of death. So he is fine, still has to have a clean find to win.

Dog 2 gets bonus points, not many, mostly it is a non-evrent. And they both need to get back to hunting.

What do you expect a sure enough bird dog to do if it comes accross a dead bird? Leave it or fetch it? Do you guys hunt at all?

You are looking for the best dog, not a reason to pick one up. Just like in training, I try to catch them doing something right, the one that does the most things right wins. The only reason to pick up a dog is interference with bracemate. Short of that, they can dig themselves out of a pretty deep hole with some fantastic work. There have been dogs win at Ames that knocked and chased birds.

[Chukar12]

Here is why I posed the question. At a recent trial, I was scouting a dog. I followed the dog over a ridge and saw a fairly sizable fracas in the dust. The dog I was scouting caught a planted bird and started heck bent for leather back to his handler. I turned my horse to follow, before we got back, the dog’s brace mate intercepted the dog and they goofed around a bit and the second dog ended up with the bird. They were off again and shortly they were in sight of the judges and gallery. The second dog that did not catch the bird but was the first seen with it dropped it; the first dog (the unknown offending party) mouthed the bird, left it and went on.
When the judge picked up the bird it was alive, he gave it to me and I put it in my saddle bag; it never did die. The judges left both dogs down at the open and veiled criticism of many. Ironically, not the least of who was the very gent I was scouting for. After the brace when he expressed his criticism I told him what had happened. After placements I told the judges, and complimented them on the right call.
I think it is important to have these discussions for awareness. I agree that the condition of the bird and how it got in that condition is an unknown, yet many have a standard of cold, warm, stiff etc…I think judges show much better leadership and have a greater opportunity to place the right dogs when they look for what is right v what is wrong, and leave the speculation regarding what they cannot see to the side.

[DonF]

Agree with Neil but would say that the bird had better be dead.

[Winchey]

I don't see this much as it is wild birds in my venue, but what difference does it make if the bird is alive or dead? If he was running up wind and ran right into a live bird why would he point it, and if it didn't fly he didn't get the opportunity to stop to flush? Anyways, who knows what happened. Non event in my rookie opinion. Still need to see that dog pointed thoughat some point for him to place though.

[cjuve]

Agree with Neil but would say that the bird had better be dead.

Do you think that a dog can tell the difference in an injured bird and uninjured bird? I have had multiple occasions hunting when I have had a dog scoop a cripple where they would not try it with an uninjured bird. If you did not see how the bird ended up in the dogs mouth you can't judge it, the mere fact that it is there is not enough to penalize the dog. The behaviour of the bird and dog prior to the bird ending up in the dogs mouth is what needs to be taken into consideration. It is a non-event move them on.

[RayGubernat]

I got in on this a bit late, but here is my take anyway...

If it was a cold dead bird I would not care either way and I would have no impressions, other than the dog that retrieved it was doing what a bird dog should probably do.

If it was a live bird or a warm one, I would be watching both dogs even more closely, from that point forward. A wise man one told me if you are judging and you think you see something but are not totally sure, don't say anything... but... pay attention because the dog will probably do it again, and the next time it will likely be easier to see.

Just another reminder that what you do not see you probably should not pass judgement on.

RayG

[Neil]

Hall of Famer, noted judge Joe Walker says, "You going to run on funny birds, you got to judge funny birds". He tells about the time a tame covey was hundled up one cold morning, repeatedly hitting the pointing dog in the face at the flush,the fdog flinched amd perhaps took a step back, prompting Joe to say, "I don't know how to judge that, let's go on."

I am not sure how dogs do a lot of what they do, but distinguishing between healthy and injuried birds is sure one of them. The only thing bringing back a live bird tells me is he is soft mouthed.

[dan v]

Hall of Famer, noted judge Joe Walker says, "You going to run on funny birds, you got to judge funny birds".

That's sage advice.

A man-made event with man-made birds....as a judge, you better have that in the back of your mind.

I'll add another twist...let's say they had a derby stake earlier in the day on the same course? We know what derbies can do...then when the gun dogs roll through the carnage, what then?

[mask]

neil, when you say dogs at ames have won after bumping birds, you are not talking about the national championship are you?

[slistoe]

Seen it happen a few times - both when running a dog and when judging, but not in the scenario where both dogs were involved with the bird. For myself I will not carry a dog that picks up a live bird on course. If you are there to play in planted bird games you best make sure that your dog is going to point them because if you want to carry the argument that the dog can tell the difference then we may as well just send the dogs out with a fetch command because for darn sure they can catch any and every planted bird that is out there if they cared to try. If it is a dead bird then no fault, but as Ray says if it is warm dead it is likely the dog will show his colors on a subsequent find. With both together with the bird as was described I think I would be hesitant to order either of them up because it would be absolutely wrong to order them both up.

[Neil]

neil, when you say dogs at ames have won after bumping birds, you are not talking about the national championship are you?

Yes, the NC. It was fairly common in the old days, some having several breaches. Last time was 1960 Home Again Mike, chased like a puppy on his 13th find. His application and clean bird work surpased all others by a wide margin.

The goal is to identify the best dog, not the errorless common one.

[Neil]

Seen it happen a few times - both when running a dog and when judging, but not in the scenario where both dogs were involved with the bird. For myself I will not carry a dog that picks up a live bird on course. If you are there to play in planted bird games you best make sure that your dog is going to point them because if you want to carry the argument that the dog can tell the difference then we may as well just send the dogs out with a fetch command because for darn sure they can catch any and every planted bird that is out there if they cared to try. If it is a dead bird then no fault, but as Ray says if it is warm dead it is likely the dog will show his colors on a subsequent find. With both together with the bird as was described I think I would be hesitant to order either of them up because it would be absolutely wrong to order them both up.

The problem I have is I don't know when the bird was injured.

And most important the dog is not winning without clean bird work.

There is no reason to pick up a dog other than interference, check the AKC and AFTCA Rules.

I, too, think these discussions helpful.

[cjuve]

Here is some interesting info regarding AFTCA

http://www.region14aftca.com/aftcagu.pdf

[Grange]

I was always told you can't judge what you can't see. If I didn't see the dog take the bird out then I shouldn't assume the dog took the bird out and thus I'd leave the dog down.

[Neil]

Here is some interesting info regarding AFTCA

http://www.region14aftca.com/aftcagu.pdf

Page 28 covers the OP.

[slistoe]

Seen it happen a few times - both when running a dog and when judging, but not in the scenario where both dogs were involved with the bird. For myself I will not carry a dog that picks up a live bird on course. If you are there to play in planted bird games you best make sure that your dog is going to point them because if you want to carry the argument that the dog can tell the difference then we may as well just send the dogs out with a fetch command because for darn sure they can catch any and every planted bird that is out there if they cared to try. If it is a dead bird then no fault, but as Ray says if it is warm dead it is likely the dog will show his colors on a subsequent find. With both together with the bird as was described I think I would be hesitant to order either of them up because it would be absolutely wrong to order them both up.

The problem I have is I don't know when the bird was injured.

And most important the dog is not winning without clean bird work.

There is no reason to pick up a dog other than interference, check the AKC and AFTCA Rules.

I, too, think these discussions helpful.

Yep, no reason to pick the dog up, but as I said, I won't carry them on my judges sheet. I may even inform the handler that his dog is no longer in contention.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

It would make a difference to me if the first dog brought back a warm bird or a bird that had obviously been dead for a long time.I would not penalize the second dog for picking it up and bringing back to its handler. If it was warm,I would pick the first dog up.

I agree.

[Neil]

So you would penalize the soft mouthed dog for bringing back a live bird, and reward the hardmouthed one for perhaps killing it?

BTW, if I am handler, it will be dead as soon as it is in my hands before the judge ever sees it.

Did you all even read the AFTCA Guidelines?

[AZ Brittany Guy]

So you would penalize the soft mouthed dog for bringing back a live bird, and reward the hardmouthed one for perhaps killing it?

BTW, if I am handler, it will be dead as soon as it is in my hands before the judge ever sees it.

Did you all even read the AFTCA Guidelines?

That not even remotely what I agreed with.

[slistoe]

So you would penalize the soft mouthed dog for bringing back a live bird, and reward the hardmouthed one for perhaps killing it?

BTW, if I am handler, it will be dead as soon as it is in my hands before the judge ever sees it.

Did you all even read the AFTCA Guidelines?

In the one instance it is obvious the dog somehow caught a live bird, in the other it is not. So yeah, a hardmouth dog may get away with one, but as I said, it's true colors will show in time. I fail to see where the "reward" is.

Yes, I have read the AFTCA guidelines many times. Did you ignore the part about "obviously crippled"? When the bird has it's head up, looking around as the dog comes to you, you best be breaking a wing as you take it from the dog rather than killing it.
A deceitful handler won't be extended the courtesy of knowing that they are running for nothing.

[Neil]

I think it great that we have expressed different viewpoints without personal attacks.

But to answer the last question, I don't know how far you ride in front of the judges, but if I see a bird in my dog's mouth you, as the judge, are going to need binoculars to see what position the bird's head is in.

In truth, even though I hunt my dogs and let them retrieve, I have never had one do so in a trial. And when judging, i have never placed one that did, dead or alive.

So this is all speculation. But was fun.

[orbirdhunter]

I am not a judge, but I plan to be one in the future. I was running my young dog this last spring. She went out of sight over a knob and was out of sight for a minute or two...then showed to the front trotting back towards us with a bird in her mouth. The bird was dead but warm. My dog had broke on birds before in front of one of the judges, who is someone that I have a lot of respect for as a judge and dog gent. His comment was pretty simple. Non event, she will show her colors either way along the way....and sure enough, she stood the next bird, but broke on the third.........
Although I would obviously be suspect of the dog for bringing back a warm or still alive bird, it is a non event in my mind....cant judge what I can't see....

[Wildweeds]

Can't judge what you didn't see, warm,cold or otherwise. Leave them both down and wait for it,it will happen again if it's naughty behavior,when it happens again................ get the hook or scratch the dog off the use list.Benefit of doubt goes to the dog on the first go around.

[Winchey]

I am not a judge, but I plan to be one in the future. I was running my young dog this last spring. She went out of sight over a knob and was out of sight for a minute or two...then showed to the front trotting back towards us with a bird in her mouth. The bird was dead but warm. My dog had broke on birds before in front of one of the judges, who is someone that I have a lot of respect for as a judge and dog gent. His comment was pretty simple. Non event, she will show her colors either way along the way....and sure enough, she stood the next bird, but broke on the third.........
Although I would obviously be suspect of the dog for bringing back a warm or still alive bird, it is a non event in my mind....cant judge what I can't see....

You say "young" dog. just wondering if this was a derby stake, if so it shouldn't matter much if the judge seen the dog take the bird for a ride and run it down.

[V-John]

Lot of guys on this thread I would be happy to run a dog under.

[Karen]

Wow! I want to run under you guys!

Last I checked a dog carrying around a live bird could not have possibly had manners on his birds....if he did, the bird would not be in his mouth.

[Elkhunter]

Wow! I want to run under you guys!

Last I checked a dog carrying around a live bird could not have possibly had manners on his birds....if he did, the bird would not be in his mouth.

What if it was a dead bird that the dog found on course?

[Sharon]

Here is why I posed the question. At a recent trial, I was scouting a dog. I followed the dog over a ridge and saw a fairly sizable fracas in the dust. The dog I was scouting caught a planted bird and started heck bent for leather back to his handler. I turned my horse to follow, before we got back, the dog’s brace mate intercepted the dog and they goofed around a bit and the second dog ended up with the bird. They were off again and shortly they were in sight of the judges and gallery. The second dog that did not catch the bird but was the first seen with it dropped it; the first dog (the unknown offending party) mouthed the bird, left it and went on.
When the judge picked up the bird it was alive, he gave it to me and I put it in my saddle bag; it never did die. The judges left both dogs down at the open and veiled criticism of many. Ironically, not the least of who was the very gent I was scouting for. After the brace when he expressed his criticism I told him what had happened. After placements I told the judges, and complimented them on the right call.
I think it is important to have these discussions for awareness. I agree that the condition of the bird and how it got in that condition is an unknown, yet many have a standard of cold, warm, stiff etc…I think judges show much better leadership and have a greater opportunity to place the right dogs when they look for what is right v what is wrong, and leave the speculation regarding what they cannot see to the side.

WEll said. I had that happen to me once I think . My dog had the bird when the judges arrived. The other dog was gone.Judge felt the bird and it was warm "Pick your dog up please."

[Chukar12]

I feel the best judges have very few absolutes in their mind when it comes to judging something as dynamic as a dog trial. For instance, on the subject of a live bird...how live? If a dog is coming back with feathers flying and drops a flapping bird picks it up and is clearly engaged in a decent battle for restraint and control. Well, then I am going to react differently than I might to a dog bringing me a barely breathing bird that could be a hawk, coyote, or brace mate offense as I previously described.

I can't say a live bird is a dq under me. The only absolute is brace mate interference and I want to reserve some space for my judgement to pick the best dog I see.

[mask]

neil, when you say dogs at ames have won after bumping birds, you are not talking about the national championship are you?

Yes, the NC. It was fairly common in the old days, some having several breaches. Last time was 1960 Home Again Mike, chased like a puppy on his 13th find. His application and clean bird work surpased all others by a wide margin.

The goal is to identify the best dog, not the errorless common one.

Things have really changed at the NC since the sixties. A dog that took out birds would not be considered today. This would apply to qualifiers as well. This is just from the ones I attended.

[Neil]

neil, when you say dogs at ames have won after bumping birds, you are not talking about the national championship are you?

Yes, the NC. It was fairly common in the old days, some having several breaches. Last time was 1960 Home Again Mike, chased like a puppy on his 13th find. His application and clean bird work surpased all others by a wide margin.

The goal is to identify the best dog, not the errorless common one.

Things have really changed at the NC since the sixties. A dog that took out birds would not be considered today. This would apply to qualifiers as well. This is just from the ones I attended.

True, there have been a lot of changes, some have been good.

Many think Sir Lancelot's breach should have beed considered in contrast to his total exemplar effort.

Still, the tradition at the NC is toward very positive judging, dogs have won that would have been eliminated in a qualifying trial. As it should be, the want the best dog

[AZ Brittany Guy]

This is one of the most interesting, educational and subjective threads I have seen on this forum. It is obvious we have some very seasoned vets here making some great comments. Just reading all the comments has made my viewpoint change several times. New judges could benefit greatly from reading this. I have seen a few judges who are quick to order up a dog but if they already have 4 flawless or near flawless dogs on their card I am sure they are thinking that "its been a long day in the saddle".

[vols fan]

This happened to me, rain delay with lightning. Ran 30 minutes later with 3 finds on wet birds that would just flutter. Dog was flawless. Find #4 dog pointed for a second then went and picked up a stone cold dead bird and brought it to me. Bird was laying in open cut easily to see he was dead . Picked up. There seemed to be about a 50/50 split on the call. I just took bird from him and gave him a pat on head and chalked it up to one of those things that happens in trials.

[dan v]

This is one of the most interesting, educational and subjective threads I have seen on this forum. It is obvious we have some very seasoned vets here making some great comments. Just reading all the comments has made my viewpoint change several times. New judges could benefit greatly from reading this. I have seen a few judges who are quick to order up a dog but if they already have 4 flawless or near flawless dogs on their card I am sure they are thinking that "its been a long day in the saddle".

I'll give my opinion on why some judges are quick to pick a dog up...and it seems the more inexperienced do so far more frequently. What is a harder job, having a 30 dog GD/AA stake in which 25 are clean, or whittling the field down by picking dogs up? It's hard to sort out the better 3-4 of 25 than sort out 3-4 of 10.

[slistoe]

Whether there are 10 dogs or 40 dogs in a stake is of little consequence. If you want to get a ribbon the only thing that matters when you run is that you are better or worse than the 4th place dog on the card already. If you aren't beating that dog you might as well be sipping beer at the trailer.

[Neil]

There are two things an inexperienced judge seems to be able to evauate; how far the dog is from them (often without regard to how far from a hard ridding handler) and if a dog moves on point.

This releaves them of considering, class, style, application, use of wind, bird sense, intelligence, independence with cooperation, etc. The important things.

I have judged some 50 dog stakes, and never once have I heard a judge say, "Let' get this over so I can go home". The closest we ever came was with the Britt NC drawing 100 dogs and they had a week to run them.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

What are some examples of "interference"?

stealing a point,
failure to honor?
fighting?

two part question:

If a dogs points a bird and the bird flushes and flies away 180 dgs. between a bushy tree and the dog, do you allow the dog steps to mark the bird?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

What are some examples of "interference"?

stealing a point,
failure to honor?
fighting?

two part question:

If a dogs points a bird and the bird flushes and flies away 180 dgs. between a bushy tree and the dog, do you allow the dog steps to mark the bird?

starting a fight would be a big problem.

stealing point would have to be seen,

same for failure to honor.

[Neil]

What are some examples of "interference"?

stealing a point,
failure to honor?
fighting?

two part question:

If a dogs points a bird and the bird flushes and flies away 180 dgs. between a bushy tree and the dog, do you allow the dog steps to mark the bird?

Part 1, any excessive contact; hooking. Sniffing, trailing, head trailing, growling, blocking the path agressively (posturing with hackles up). It is really tough in a puppy stake, I do everything I can to seperate them, if I can't, I will suggest the handler pick up to avoid the demerit. Not as understanding with adult dogs, no violence allowed. Also the other handler can interfere.

Part 2, I go with the AFTCA definition, no significant movement with the hind legs. They say no forward motion, but if the bird flies over their head, I don't want them running around a tree to the rear. But there are so many more important things to judge.

[Neil]

Hantdler interference; excessive yelling, ridding, whistle blowing after being warned, particularly if the other dog is on point. Ridding the other dog off. And if the scout tries to interfere by ridding the other dog off or making contact with him. Region 6 put a handler on probation for the action of a scout.

It has never seemed fair to penalize the dog's performance for something dumb humans do. I am pretty sure I didn't really have the authority, but on the 3rd warning I told a handler he could leave the dog down with a substitute handler, but he was done. He picked up the dog and left. His choice, I will not abide flagrant interference.

[Neil]

Duplicate post

[Neil]

Hantdler interference; excessive yelling, ridding, whistle blowing after being warned, particularly if the other dog is on point. Ridding the other dog off. And if the scout tries to interfere by ridding the other dog off or making contact with him. Region 6 put a handler on probation for the action of a scout.

It has never seemed fair to penalize the dog's performance for something dumb humans do. I am pretty sure I didn't really have the authority, but on the 3rd warning I told a handler he could leave the dog down with a substitute handler, but he was done. He picked up the dog and left. His choice, I will not abide flagrant interference.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

What are some examples of "interference"?

stealing a point,
failure to honor?
fighting?

two part question:

If a dogs points a bird and the bird flushes and flies away 180 dgs. between a bushy tree and the dog, do you allow the dog steps to mark the bird?

Part 1, any excessive contact; hooking. Sniffing, trailing, head trailing, growling, blocking the path agressively (posturing with hackles up). It is really tough in a puppy stake, I do everything I can to seperate them, if I can't, I will suggest the handler pick up to avoid the demerit. Not as understanding with adult dogs, no violence allowed. Also the other handler can interfere.

Part 2, I go with the AFTCA definition, no significant movement with the hind legs. They say no forward motion, but if the bird flies over their head, I don't want them running around a tree to the rear. But there are so many more important things to judge.

Part 2. I guess rules are rules but from a pure hunting perspective I would like a dog that would move enough to get a clear mark on the bird. (not give chase, just wants to know where the bird went)

[slistoe]

I would likely give the dog the OK if it moved around/through a bush to gain a mark on the bird - however it would need to be an actual move to mark and not a controlled break. How do you tell? If the dog does it on it's own - moves and stops with intensity and style to mark. However I have never seen it happen because I have never seen a handler yet that did not feel compelled to give the dog a dozen or more "whoas" at increasing decibels. I have seen a couple of dogs that stood on their hind legs in the tall grass to mark the flight. I have also seen dogs swap ends on the 180 degree flush and personally thought it classier when they keep the feet planted and twist at the neck and shoulders to keep the bird in sight.

[Neil]

You are right, one of at least 3 rules that conflict with hunting. The others; following the course when the wind is blowing up the dog's butt, and the marked bird/delayed chase thing. But if you didn't have course you wouldn't get back to camp. And if they could, some handlers would have 29 finds on the same poor flying bird. It is one of the hardest things to teach a young dog that is hunted to ignore a bird they know is right over there. You can only lead them so far away from a find.

But you have to have rules.

[slistoe]

You are right, one of at least 3 rules that conflict with hunting. The others; following the course when the wind is blowing up the dog's butt, and the marked bird/delayed chase thing. But if you didn't have course you wouldn't get back to camp. And if they could, some handlers would have 29 finds on the same poor flying bird. It is one of the hardest things to teach a young dog that is hunted to ignore a bird they know is right over there. You can only lead them so far away from a find.

But you have to have rules.

The defined course and no delayed chase are two of the things that are of the greatest benefit to hunters from the trial system of selecting breeding stock.