ANOTHER FIELD TRIAL QUESTION

[Neil]

What interaction, if any, do you have with a judge that you know is wrong? I don't mean an interpretation thing like carrying a dead bird, nor even a dishonest judge. I mean an innocent mistake from a lack of knowledge and experience.

What do you say?

Neil

[Sharon]

I talk to him/her in private. He/she either is eager to learn or tells me to ...........

[Winchey]

I don't. They will eventually realize they screwed up on their own or they will never become a good judge anyways, nothing they can do about it after they made their decision.

[polmaise]

What interaction, if any, do you have with a judge that you know is wrong? I don't mean an interpretation thing like carrying a dead bird, nor even a dishonest judge. I mean an innocent mistake from a lack of knowledge and experience.

What do you say?

Neil

I would ask myself why I'm in the game and asking the question.

[Chukar12]

If I know it's lack of knowledge and or experience, I would bring it up privately. My approach would be passive and preferably in cooperation with someone else whom the judge might respect. I would however bring it up

[slistoe]

"Pick your dog up"
"Thank you judge".

Later, when placements are given and trophies are out - a polite "Why?"

[Neil]

I am not sure what my problem is, it may be my size, or lack of tact,or ignorance, but I am just not good at the passive approach.

I would like to think I have matured beyond my problems with authority, but perhaps not. I have had friends tell me that the handler/judge relationship does not have to be adversarial, but even if a good friend, I just don't talk with them. I respect their position, but have never been comfortable with being judged by those with lessor experience.

I really am asking for help with an obvious character flaw.

I was taught and have taught others to never do anything to disrespect the judges in anyway, so I just fume and say nothing.

I really want to learn.

[QuillGordon]

I'm not sure of what lingo this judge speaks

[slistoe]

Believe me, I fumed inside as I made my way back to camp. In the end the judge made a change to their way of thinking and will no longer pick a dog up because it did not stop for a bird that flew over the top of it, 30 ft. high at a right angle. The dog did not see or acknowledge the bird in any way and continued it's forward race.

As for letting something like that get in the way of future participation - that is a selfish and immature response.

[Neil]

Believe me, I fumed inside as I made my way back to camp. In the end the judge made a change to their way of thinking and will no longer pick a dog up because it did not stop for a bird that flew over the top of it, 30 ft. high at a right angle. The dog did not see or acknowledge the bird in any way and continued it's forward race.

As for letting something like that get in the way of future participation - that is a selfish and immature response.

????

Field trials are like a card game, even if not perfect, it is the only one in town.

Only death will stop me.

[slistoe]

Sorry - it wasn't you that intimated quitting over it - I should separate thoughts to where they are appropriate.

[Chukar12]

I have to compartmentalize competition and field trials in particular. I love the game and I have to discipline myself to two concepts: the first is I am not in charge, and the second is that I am a member not a customer. These two pieces of awareness help me keep from reacting to things in a manner that is more natural for me in my day to day world.

Judging, planting and administrating for all intents and purposes are voluntary activities and they are subject to varying degrees of competence and experience. I admit to having been frustrated at times and have had to catch myself in the process of pointing out the obvious at inopportune moments. Nothing beyond personal satisfaction is served and little is changed in the embarrassment of a public confrontation. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat and I try to afford myself some time to obtain a little clarity before I react.

This all looks good on paper, but I am still relatively new. I am naturally measured in my reaction because I have been conditioned to respect those with experience. I would surmise that gets more difficult after thirty or forty years in the game and you have a difficult time finding someone to equal your experience. Another good discussion and perspective.

Joe

[DonF]

I never questioned a judge but couple of time's I should have. Up at Sunnyside some years ago, I was in an ODG brace. Had one fairly new judge and I had Gene Pullen. Came through a bunch of sage with Gene hanging back a bit. Drifter was on a back but the other judge told me to pick him up. Walking out with him I passed Gene and he asked me what happened, didn't know the other judge said to pick him up. After the brace finished, Gene came over and apologized, the other judge called it a possible interference. At the Heritage Classic that same year I had a judge on another dog blow me out. I was riding the brace and the dog was on a bird. The brace mate was maybe 45 yds off on another bird. the other judge had Doug Shamberger, had his back to us. Handler walked up to the dog and it layed down on the ground. He physically lifted his dot to standing and looked back at the judge, nothing. Then he flushed the bird but didn't fire his blank gun. Instead he put the dog on heel and got about halfway back to his horse and the judge told him to fire his gun. He did and it was good enough for a win in the OAA. My dog got second. I asked Doug the placements going in and that dog got first. Told him what had happened and he was upset but the placements were already in. I guess you could say I just fume and let it go. That was the second time that dog and handler knocked me out through no fault of my dog. At Ft Lewis my dog, same dog, was on point near the river crossing. That same dog came in and took out the bird. Chased it all over but Lefty never budged until the handler came up behind him on his horse running the horse. Lefty had to jump out of the way to keep from being run over, moved about 6 feet and stopped again. Pretty impressive but that was his only find. Never said a word to the other handler. Yea I shut up and stew!

I also thionk that if you haven't had a bad call or two, you haven't been out there long enough!

[rinker]

Know going in that things are not always going to go your way. Judges will do things that you do not agree with, and things that are wrong. Your bracemate handler will do things that you do not agree with, and things that are wrong. The bird planter, if there is one, will do things that you do not agree with, and things that are wrong. There are lots of other things that I havent thought of that will go wrong. All of these things will happen eventually, fortunately I think they are uncommon. With this knowledge I would recommend that you decide up front if you can deal with this, if not, then find something else to do.

[Brooks Carmichael]

We have all been there. What happened to you was a travesty and unfortunately it happens to often.

I never questioned a judge but couple of time's I should have. Up at Sunnyside some years ago, I was in an ODG brace. Had one fairly new judge and I had Gene Pullen. Came through a bunch of sage with Gene hanging back a bit. Drifter was on a back but the other judge told me to pick him up. Walking out with him I passed Gene and he asked me what happened, didn't know the other judge said to pick him up. After the brace finished, Gene came over and apologized, the other judge called it a possible interference. At the Heritage Classic that same year I had a judge on another dog blow me out. I was riding the brace and the dog was on a bird. The brace mate was maybe 45 yds off on another bird. the other judge had Doug Shamberger, had his back to us. Handler walked up to the dog and it layed down on the ground. He physically lifted his dot to standing and looked back at the judge, nothing. Then he flushed the bird but didn't fire his blank gun. Instead he put the dog on heel and got about halfway back to his horse and the judge told him to fire his gun. He did and it was good enough for a win in the OAA. My dog got second. I asked Doug the placements going in and that dog got first. Told him what had happened and he was upset but the placements were already in. I guess you could say I just fume and let it go. That was the second time that dog and handler knocked me out through no fault of my dog. At Ft Lewis my dog, same dog, was on point near the river crossing. That same dog came in and took out the bird. Chased it all over but Lefty never budged until the handler came up behind him on his horse running the horse. Lefty had to jump out of the way to keep from being run over, moved about 6 feet and stopped again. Pretty impressive but that was his only find. Never said a word to the other handler. Yea I shut up and stew!

I also thionk that if you haven't had a bad call or two, you haven't been out there long enough!

[Sharon]

"I also think that if you haven't had a bad call or two, you haven't been out there long enough!
" quote Don F

Absolutely right.

As is said, "Justice must not only be done but appear to be done."
I had a Judge who used to go out for breakfast with his friend every morning , before that day's stakes started. His friend usually placed first. Now his friend had an excellent dog and I'd like to think deserved first every time , BUT..........the grumblings started with many.
Small clubs can't always afford to bring in judges from afar, but using Club judges can lead to all kinds of problems.

[shags]

Well, there are two judges who decide placements, so it's not really fair to cast suspicion on a guy because he has meals with friends

[vols fan]

Only time I asked a judge a question ( in private ) was I was in last brace of day and as my dog was going down the edge a covey of birds left the middle of the field and flew away at 35-40 yds on the dogs side. My dog STF on them 200 yds in front of me. I thought I had the thing won, no placement and was told the STF knocked him out. I've seen STB , stop to bump win many trials. I was very disappointed along with most everyone else. First time judge and other judge was with other dog. Think she understands a true STF now, not because of me but others. Part of the game

[Neil]

Thanks.

There was no complaint indended, judging you don't agree with is just part of it. I am just asking what is the proper response?

Example: After a find trying to regain the front, I had to gallop with my dog at heel to catch up with the other judge, who was at a lope chasing the other handler who was trying to bury me. Now I srill don't know what I should have said, but I am pretty sure, "Dumba$$, walk your horse" as I zipped by him, was not appropriate. We burned up an hour course in about 35 minutes, and most of the 2nd. Rightfully, neither of us placed, in part due to my smart mouth.

What would you have said?

Neil

[shags]

"Holy cow, who's setting the pace today?"

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

"Holy cow, who's setting the pace today?"

Its not a race. but the judges set the pace otherwise, dogs would be permitted to cut the course and hit the bird field long before the handlers. It states this in the AKC Hunt Test Regs but in the FT regs it is more vague.

[shags]

Yeah, but in Neil's scenario the other handler was setting the pace and he wants to know what if anything someone might say to the judge who was loping to keep up. :roll:

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Yeah, but in Neil's scenario the other handler was setting the pace and he wants to know what if anything someone might say to the judge who was loping to keep up. :roll:

Trials are competitive. Compete or get the heck out. Its that simple and dont second guess the judges.

[Neil]

It was not the other handler that was the problem, it was the judge that was chasing him at a lope while at the front.

My question, what do you say?

[slistoe]

What is there to say? Get your dog to the front or handle him from behind. There are two judges and you have one of them with you - he will tell the other judge how good your dog was.

[Neil]

I have been taught and believe, the fieltd trial is to the front, I am going to maintain the front. It is up to the judges, if they are going to chase the handlers, we are going to burn up some course, without either dog showing well.

So what do you say to the judges to get them to do their jobs?

Neil

[slistoe]

It is your job as a handler to show your dog to the best of your ability. It is the judges job to watch and evaluate what you show them. It is not your job to tell them how to do theirs.

A dog behind his handler should never win. Has little to do with where the other handler/dog is.

[slistoe]

We had a similar thing with handlers thinking they knew better about what a judge should or shouldn't be doing. One fellow yelled at the judge to "D## well start watching the dog". Next dog he simply rode over and picked his dog up. "If you aren't going to watch him."
Now, IMO you did not pay for the judges undivided attention to your dog for 1/2 hour. You paid for the opportunity to have your dog ranked against a winning performance, and at some point you are no longer winning anything. If the judge isn't watching your dog anymore you should have a pretty good idea of where you stand in the placements - has nothing to do with the judge "doing his job" - it would seem to me he has already done it. You lost.