ANOTHER ONE, JUDGES

[Neil]

You are watching one really nice dog putting down a good race, his bracemate is not overtly trailing, but is paying him attention. They go over the hill, dog A a good mintute in the lead, when you get there, dog B is a few feet in front on point, dog A is looking uncertain.

Now there is only a little doubt that dog B stole point, under judgement dog B never got anywhere first, except this time.

What do you do?

Neil

[shags]

Give "A" the back and hope that "B" goes with the bird on the flush, as point stealers sometimes do Tough break for "A" but that kind of thing happens. Even if "B" handles the bird flawlessly, it would mean nothing since he wouldn't be a usable dog anyway, given his race.

[slistoe]

Are you meaning we should make up our own version of what likely happened? Send B's handler in to flush and move the dogs on.

[Brooks Carmichael]

You can judge only what you see. It is quite obvious what happened, dog B stole point but you did not see him do it so forget it and move on. But, again you can only judge what you see. Dog B is pointing and Dog A is backing. I have observed this happening more then once, it is all part of Field trialing.

[Karen]

Let the handlers make the call. If Dog A's handler decides to treat it as a divided find, that works in my mind. If Dog A's handler decides to take it as a back, that works too (if he didn't have his normal style, I'd personally take it as a back as long as I had other bird work). From your description, Dog B isn't winning anything anyway.

[Quailcommando]

I would say it is what you found dog B' s find. I think if both dogs are having a good race and dog A was first over by a bit and you found dog B in front there would be more of a conversation but I still think it is what it is.

[cjuve]

Is dog B in contention?
Is dog A in contention?
How many more dogs are there to run?
how much time in this brace?
A lot depends on what the handlers decide to do, if both go in and fire I call it divided . If handler B fires then it is a point and a back but you already know that dog b is out. If Dog A is in fact the best dog on the ground but needs more bird work I might even go as far as to tell Handler A to go in and fire so that I can call it divided.

[slistoe]

A lot depends on what the handlers decide to do, if both go in and fire I call it divided .

The handlers can do what the handlers do, but it won't change how I look at it.

[cjuve]

A lot depends on what the handlers decide to do, if both go in and fire I call it divided .

The handlers can do what the handlers do, but it won't change how I look at it.

How can it not? Which is better a divided or a back? You can't pick up dog B because you did not see him steal point but you can give a more favorable call on the bird work to dog A. It's not about how you can scratch dog b off the list,you already did that.

[RayGubernat]

What you saw when you came into view of the dogs is what you must judge. Yeah we know what most likely happened, but if you did not see it....

If I was handling dog A, I would take the back because it is well within the realm of possibilities that the dog also bumped the bird and it will be a UP, so a back is a good thing in that circumstance. I would then do everything humanly possible to separate my dog, and maintain that separation from the other dog. I might even find an opportunity to woah my dog where the judges can see(but not hear) and let the other dog do it again, for all to see.

As a judge, you gotta judge what you see in front of you. As a handler, you have some options.

RayG

[slistoe]

A lot depends on what the handlers decide to do, if both go in and fire I call it divided .

The handlers can do what the handlers do, but it won't change how I look at it.

How can it not? Which is better a divided or a back? You can't pick up dog B because you did not see him steal point but you can give a more favorable call on the bird work to dog A. It's not about how you can scratch dog b off the list,you already did that.

Whether I view it as a divided find or not has nothing to do with how the handlers approach the situation. If I decide B pointing, A backing, handler A can fire a volley of 9 shots if he wants - doesn't change anything. If I decide divided find and send Handler B in to flush, Dog A is still credited with a find, even though handler A did not flush. If the handlers act of their own accord in an attempt to influence the judging - their loss.
When did dog B get scratched off the list? If dog B goes on to have 2 or 3 independent finds in the rest of the brace with a back of Dog A - then what are you going to do?

[slistoe]

I might even find an opportunity to woah my dog where the judges can see(but not hear) and let the other dog do it again, for all to see.

RayG

I had a bracemate pull that one on me one time - I had told him my dog wasn't solid on his backing as a courtesy before the brace. We were ahead 2 finds to none and by my accounting were going to beat his other dog which most had in first place at the time. When he saw my dog coming up the field edge to regain the front after the 3rd find, he whoahed his dog in the edge of tall cover, with the dog half concealed. After my dog went by he called point, tried to flush, took an NP on his dog (her second NP) and put a lead on her.

[dan v]

A lot depends on what the handlers decide to do, if both go in and fire I call it divided . If handler B fires then it is a point and a back but you already know that dog b is out. If Dog A is in fact the best dog on the ground but needs more bird work I might even go as far as to tell Handler A to go in and fire so that I can call it divided.

Since when do the handlers get to decide when the find is divided?

[Neil]

I might even find an opportunity to woah my dog where the judges can see(but not hear) and let the other dog do it again, for all to see.

RayG

I had a bracemate pull that one on me one time - I had told him my dog wasn't solid on his backing as a courtesy before the brace. We were ahead 2 finds to none and by my accounting were going to beat his other dog which most had in first place at the time. When he saw my dog coming up the field edge to regain the front after the 3rd find, he whoahed his dog in the edge of tall cover, with the dog half concealed. After my dog went by he called point, tried to flush, took an NP on his dog (her second NP) and put a lead on her.

Wow, that was just low down. His dog would have to whoa with the style of a point or if I were the judge I would say I thought she was taking a dump and so did the other dog.

I think some people would kill to get a placement.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I might even find an opportunity to woah my dog where the judges can see(but not hear) and let the other dog do it again, for all to see.



RayG

I had a bracemate pull that one on me one time - I had told him my dog wasn't solid on his backing as a courtesy before the brace. We were ahead 2 finds to none and by my accounting were going to beat his other dog which most had in first place at the time. When he saw my dog coming up the field edge to regain the front after the 3rd find, he whoahed his dog in the edge of tall cover, with the dog half concealed. After my dog went by he called point, tried to flush, took an NP on his dog (her second NP) and put a lead on her.

How were you "ahead" when you hadnt finished the day? The number or finds has little to do with the out come.

[slistoe]

The number or finds has little to do with the out come.

If you don't have any it does!

[slistoe]

How were you "ahead" when you hadnt finished the day?

Semantics.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

It only takes one. Saying that your "winning" because you have more finds means nothing.

[slistoe]

It only takes one. Saying that your "winning" because you have more finds means nothing.

It's all right. You don't need to understand everything. We were "ahead" 2 birds to none in that brace. We were winning the trial to that point - nothing to do with the # of finds other than we had some - and they were done RIGHT.

[Neil]

I would rather have two than none.

That may be the crapiest way to lose one, and I have done most of them.

[slistoe]

I would rather have two than none.

That may be the crapiest way to lose one, and I have done most of them.

It really hurt at the time. In the end it mattered little - that dog had 16 points and no title because I never did get a recorded back in competition with her. She never in her life stole a point, but as she got older she got better and better at avoiding backing situations. In the end, if I made her stop she would turn her back on the other dog and look away.

[Neil]

I like her! As Hoyle Eaton says "you can't win nothin' standing around watching another dog point". As long, as you said, she didn't steal point. She would be OK with me.

The needing a back for a title is a CKC thing, right?

[slistoe]

The needing a back for a title is a CKC thing, right?

Yup.

[Sharon]

I had a more experienced handler take advantage of me like that too. Divided find, judges not there yet. He told me to go in and flush the bird. I now know he hoped my dog would chase while he stood beside his dog , knowing he had full control. Now I know we wait for the judge and both go in to flush.

PS My dog held tight.

[Neil]

Ah, the d]vided find.

In 50 years of hunting with close ranging walking dogs that mostly stay in sight. I have seen may be a dozen honest divided finds. Where dogs hit the scent at the exact same time, or one is hidden from the other. Yet it will happen 3 or 4 times in every trial. Trust me, one of them is more likely stealing point.

I have had few bracemates' handlers try to do me wrong. About the worst was flushing birds before I got to my backing dog.

[RayGubernat]

Ah, the d]vided find.

In 50 years of hunting with close ranging walking dogs that mostly stay in sight. I have seen may be a dozen honest divided finds. Where dogs hit the scent at the exact same time, or one is hidden from the other. Yet it will happen 3 or 4 times in every trial. Trust me, one of them is more likely stealing point.

YA THINK????

quote="Neil"]
I have had few bracemates' handlers try to do me wrong. About the worst was flushing birds before I got to my backing dog.[/quote]

I have had a couple step in and flush when it was not their dog's find. One was a pro which did not surprise me, but the other was an amateur which kinda disappointed me. Mistakes happen and folks do mess up unintentionally...I certainly have. Deliberate stuff has been extremely rare, at least deliberate stuff that I recognized as such.

Most folks go out of their way to be sportsmen/sportspersons...including the pros I have watched. In some cases I have seen pros bend over backwards when braced with an amateur.

RayG

[slistoe]

In all the trials I have judged and competed in this was a single incident - in no way does it reflect the norm. I still remember riding the Nat. Chicken Ch. when a dog was really putting it down, the handler had lost touch with his scout and needed help. Ferrel Miller was up next brace but stepped up and ran his horse to a lather for a couple of miles - found the dog, called point and assisted with the find.