trial question

[cjhills]

Is blowing your whistle and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa, normal handling in a walking puppy stake. Especially when it is obviously confusing to your bracemate. Is this interference or good handling. Cj

[bb560m]

Is blowing your whistle and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa, normal handling in a walking puppy stake. Especially when it is obviously confusing to your bracemate. Is this interference or good handling. Cj

bad handling imo. dog has to get used to someone else singing "yooooo" the whole brace. very annoying imo, but happens more than enough to warrant getting your dog used to it.

[DonF]

I haven't heard much of it anymore. Used to be it was there all the time and most judge's wouldn't put a stop to it. I have put a stop to it whenever it started, it is a violation of the rules when it is constant. It is really abusive to listen to and hard on dog's not used to it. The handler's like to claim it helps their dog keep track of them, maybe and maybe not but I never stood for it when I judged, it's cr*p!

[GrayDawg]

it is a violation of the rules when it is constant.

Don,
Can you please cite the Section/sub-section/paragragh of the AKC Rules for Field Trials
for Pointing Breeds to which you are referring?

I don't believe there is anything in the AFTCA Rules or rules that govern AF Open stakes,
but certainly willing to learn if I have missed it.

Rob

[Trekmoor]

Fascinating ! Does it work ? Do pups hearing almost constant encouragement from their handlers hunt better ? I would have thought a pup subjected to that would be likely to behave in one of two ways ....(1) Completely switch off to the noise...(2) be distracted by it and fail to hunt well ???

Bill T.

[markj]

Do pups hearing almost constant encouragement from their handlers hunt better ?

Wild birds will run out from all this noise. I have learned to enter a field very quietly if I wish to see a good point.

[Chukar12]

Chapter 14 rule 6G deals with excessive noise. .. it states that it is severely penalized of itself and a failure to comply with a judges instructions may result in disqualification. there are also stipulations regarding hacking. I have not found this to be near the problem in the larger AF stakes as I have in AKC, sans some noted exceptions. I like judges that deal with things right up front, tell the handler what you expect and establish the parameters up front.

[RayGubernat]

In an AKC gundog stake there is a standard of performance that penalizes loud handling and hacking. Soooo, in a gundog stake, there should not be a lot of noise from either handler. The expectation is for a relatively quiet stake where the dogs go with their handlers with minimal verbal encouragement.

If a handler is not making excessive noise, but is handling their dog in a more or less normal manner, and the other dog mistakenly takes a cue from the other handler, due to inexperience, that is not interference.

If it is apparent that excessive handling, especially if it is loud and whistle blowing by one handler is having an inhibiting effect on the other dog's performance...that IS interference and it should be stopped. One caution to the handler to "button it" would be appropriate, but if the handler resumes the racket, ordering the dog up for handler interference is absolutely appropriate, IMO.


RayG

[Neil]

AKC Rules mention excessive noise, excessive handling, and interference in a number of places, AFTCA Guidelines just lumps it under interference as interpreted by the judge.

[Sharon]

The vocal handler is hurting his cause. In a puppy stake seeing a dog work INDEPENDENTLY is key. My pup would have been distracted by this and I would have been ticked off.

[GrayDawg]

Chapter 14 rule 6G deals with excessive noise. .. it states that it is severely penalized of itself and a failure to comply with a judges instructions may result in disqualification.

Now define "excessive noise"............. Some handlers may call it "singing".
Anything in Chapter 14 rule 6G regarding singing?

Rob

[DonF]

it is a violation of the rules when it is constant.

Don,
Can you please cite the Section/sub-section/paragragh of the AKC Rules for Field Trials
for Pointing Breeds to which you are referring?

I don't believe there is anything in the AFTCA Rules or rules that govern AF Open stakes,
but certainly willing to learn if I have missed it.

Rob

Wish I could, don't have the guide around anymore. It's called excessive noise handling. Must still be there because don't hear it any more. I don't thuink it's in the AF rules, never read them. See AKC rules and general procedures for pointing dogs

[Chukar12]

Nope, and it is hard to define over the internet and not difficult in person when you are hearing it.. and the judges authority is clear enough to straighten out any argument quick enough

[Neil]

Nope, and it is hard to define over the internet and not difficult in person when you are hearing it.. and the judges authority is clear enough to straighten out any argument quick enough

Well said! It really that simple.

I am a very hands off kinda judge, you run your dog as best you can, I will judge it best I can. Doing pretty much whatever you want, short of interference. Interfere, and you get a nice, polite warning. Do it again and you get a stern warning, 3rd time you are done.

[Grange]

I remember running my setter when she was a pup (10 months) in an Open Derby. I was braced with a pro who is known to be loud. At first my dog was quite distracted, but mid way through our brace she started to learn and ended up with two birds and a third place. These days she is pretty good at not listening to my bracemate. I don't use a whistle with my dogs anymore, because I realized that my signals were different than many other trialers so that definitely messed with my dog. For example I used two beeps to call my dog in (got that from retriever training) whereas it seemed two beeps usually meant as a "go out" command for others.

[PntrRookie]

...and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa...in a walking puppy stake...

Really...come on MAN! Let the pup be a pup and grip and rip if they want. A good judge should care LESS about a PUPPY standing a bird...we want to see them ROLL!

[rinker]

I am a foot bird hunter and very small time foot trialer. Approximately fifteen years ago I went to a trial and quickly realized that there was a very prominent pro trainer/handler also entered in the trial. When I saw this I was hoping to get to meet and talk to him because I do occasionally send dogs to a pro trainer. As it turned out I was braced with the pro. He very quickly realized that he could handle my dog, and he did. Every time my dog was making a good cast or going to a birdy place the pro would 'sing' and my dog would break the cast off. The pro beat me that day, but he potentially lost several thousand dollars that I have paid to a different pro trainer since that field trial.

I have only had one other issue with this. The other time my dog was on point, and the other handler walked to within about five feet of my dog and screamed at the top of his lungs at his dog. My dog took a big jump sideways and turned around and came back to me.

For every negative experience that I have had at a field trial, I have had one hundred great experiences. I have met a lot of great people and had some great times.

[shags]

Take it as a compliment that those guys were so impressed with your dog they had to take him out like that.

[kninebirddog]

Chapter 14 rule 6G deals with excessive noise. .. it states that it is severely penalized of itself and a failure to comply with a judges instructions may result in disqualification. there are also stipulations regarding hacking. I have not found this to be near the problem in the larger AF stakes as I have in AKC, sans some noted exceptions. I like judges that deal with things right up front, tell the handler what you expect and establish the parameters up front.

Wish this would be addressed in ALL trial formats Nothing like listening to whistle and a constant Noise for entire brace :roll:

We have a few people in NSTRA all you hear is the dogs name for 30 minutes.

and I have already harped on this a couple times but since this is about that very thing I would think a supposed pro handler should be called on the carpet for this VERY thing. When you have people pulling dogs because of the unsportsmanlike conduct this pro continuously does , there is a serious problem. Not only is it annoying to sit through while trying to watch some dog work it is a quick way to get new people to not want to come back ...Think about what message it gives and then we wonder why some regions more then others have a hard time with filling trials. Why drive and spend the money on fuel and entries etc to run a brace win you are only going to walk away with that bitter beer face because of that unsportsmanlike person Amateur or worse a Pro handler.

[dan v]

...... to walk away with that bitter beer face ....

Hey now...I happen to like bitter beer.

[kninebirddog]

...... to walk away with that bitter beer face ....

Hey now...I happen to like bitter beer.

It is an acquired taste for sure

[Chukar12]

Arlette, this is certainly a challenge. I hate to sound like a broken record, but field trials are a voluntary activity not just for participants but the administration and judging as well. We have an expectation to receive a service that meets a written standard without an efficient and accountable organizational chart to uphold that standard. Weekend stakes are often run by local clubs and have folks with great intentions, there are many at the top of my mind that have decision makers procuring judges with limited knowledge and resources, and often you end up with well intended, weak judges. Many trials are run purely on tactical execution because the organization is void of competent strategists.

Since you mention the Brittany trials in particular; and I think I know with whom you have discord, that crappola ceases to fly the further up the food chain you get. For example this years National Championships will probably not tolerate the shenanigans you saw in Arizona these judges are different: Open, William Smith (I know he will not put up with it), Howard Burbach and Harry Gilmore ( Friends tell me they are extremely competent) Amateur: June McConnell ( Is not interested in excess theatrics and is an extremely capable and competent judge), Garvin Collins (quite affable and not over reactive but too experienced to be fooled) and Wade Haines who I hear is also serious about the job.

Horse back field trialing is very competitive and has a big financial barrier to entry. That in itself poses a challenge for developing the future, however for over hundred years it has seemed to survive and I suspect it will continue. That makes some of these educational conversations even more important. There are some old timers who have shared some pretty good stuff in the last few weeks tha the wise would be well served in remembering. It will make the organization stronger by making the activity stronger. Lastly, I will say this about judging. It is important to network with American Filed and other breed clubs and make yourself valuable and available to judge for them...trading assignments with competent people outside the inner circle is good business and really helps with the perception issue of nepotism in our judging.

[slistoe]

When I first got started in trialing I was braced with a fellow who found that my dog was responding to his "singing" - and not in a positive way. He would find convenient times to sing to his dog and my usually fast paced, far flung dog was more like a potterer. I went home and did some training with the dog - you aren't going to stop the other fellows from handling their dog, singing to their dog, hollering at their dog, taking their frustrations out verbally towards their dog in general etc. etc. If you are staying in the game then condition your dog to the added distractions.
Not really a lot different than hunting in popular public access areas.

[Neil]

I know 4 of the judgs for the Britt A-A Ch well, have ran with them and under them. The other 2 I don't know personally, but are equally respected.

We seem to have quality judges at FDSB and AFTCA Championships as well.

The problem in weak judges seems to be weekend trials, not as important in FDSB and AFTCA where there are no points awarded, but in AKC they are very important on the road to FC and AFC titles.

I do not enjoy judging, would rather run my dogs, but I have served. We need to be much more appreciative of our judges.

[Chukar12]

It is important to network with American Filed and other breed clubs and make yourself valuable and available to judge for them...trading assignments with competent people outside the inner circle is good business and really helps with the perception issue of nepotism in our judging.

In the spirit of this I find it compelling enough to thank with forethought Doug Favor for his consideration to judge the American Brittany Club Chukar Championship this spring at Milepost 9.
LET'S HEAR IT FOR DOUG! clap..clap..clap

[Neil]

Clap clap

[DGFavor]

Judge? What do they do? Do I have to buy my own robe and gavel?"

What are the dates of said shindig? Retired my hounds this year from competition to put an end to the futility of it all...taking on more judging assignments to "give back"....spending a fortune on tar and feather removal.

[Chukar12]

Mayish ... Doc details to come
we would love to confirm and order you a lovely gift

[Tejas]

Is blowing your whistle and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa, normal handling in a walking puppy stake. Especially when it is obviously confusing to your bracemate. Is this interference or good handling. Cj

Don't teach your dog whoa and you can eliminate close to 50% of that equation.

[cjhills]

Is blowing your whistle and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa, normal handling in a walking puppy stake. Especially when it is obviously confusing to your bracemate. Is this interference or good handling. Cj

Don't teach your dog whoa and you can eliminate close to 50% of that equation.

True. Getting him accustomed to a whistle would eliminate most of the rest.
Just seems a bit unsportsmanlike and I wondered if it is the way puppies are normally handled, being very inexperienced in trials.
It was very effective though. Every time he yelled whoa my dog stopped. Part of the learning experience

[Tejas]

Is blowing your whistle and shouting something that sounds a lot like whoa, normal handling in a walking puppy stake. Especially when it is obviously confusing to your bracemate. Is this interference or good handling. Cj

Don't teach your dog whoa and you can eliminate close to 50% of that equation.

True. Getting him accustomed to a whistle would eliminate most of the rest.
Just seems a bit unsportsmanlike and I wondered if it is the way puppies are normally handled, being very inexperienced in trials.
It was very effective though. Every time he yelled whoa my dog stopped. Part of the learning experience

Its not the best of sportsmanship, perhaps the other handler was inexperienced as well. If he was yelling whoa in a walking puppy stake, there is a good chance that was the case.

[cjhills]

Actually he was a pro, with a long string of dogs

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Learn how to compete against the "pros" or handle in amateur stakes only. It's that simple. Trials are competition and many will do what it takes to win. Is it bad sportsmanship? Only the judges decide that.

[RayGubernat]

Judge? What do they do? Do I have to buy my own robe and gavel?"

What are the dates of said shindig? Retired my hounds this year from competition to put an end to the futility of it all...taking on more judging assignments to "give back"....spending a fortune on tar and feather removal.

Doug -

They sell disposable Tyvek suits. Those things are a terrific barrier between you and all sorts of disagreeable stuff. Peel 'em off and either hang them out to dry or just toss 'em if they get too nasty. The ride home from a trial is kinda like that Tyvek suit for me. Anything nasty just peels right off.


RayG

[fuzznut]

Now define "excessive noise"............. Some handlers may call it "singing".
Anything in Chapter 14 rule 6G regarding singing?

Sort of like pornography... you'll know it when you hear it!

I remember one pretty active FT person who would just wail at her dog, whether 2 ft or 5000000000 ft from her. The noise never changed, the tempo never changed, the level of intensity never changed, just a constant noise. Annoying as all get out and I hated being braced with them. Not so much that my dogs were bothered, but I was!

The wailing took my mind off what I wanted to do. I ended up being so dang annoyed by it all that I became my own worse enemy. Maybe she had it right, and I had it all wrong?