What new dog for me? Langhaar, Setter, Golden?

zachw · Post by **zachw** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:32 am

I know I know, another one of these posts, but I have some specific criteria I'm looking for. I recently had to put down my 6 year old golden retriever/german shepherd mix. He wasn't a spectacular hunter, but in every other category he was really the best dog I ever had. I'm now looking for a more serious hunting dog, so what do I need?

I hunt or plan to hunt:
1) Fur (deer, hogs, small game)
2) Dove
3) Upland
4) Duck

Criteria:
1) My wife is only barely tolerating us getting a puppy, and she wants something that she considers pretty, which is anything without a mottled coat, and I generally prefer longer haired dogs
2) This is my first gun dog, so I'm looking for a pretty trainable dog. My last dog spoiled me- he was easy.
3) ~50 pounds or more
4) I prefer closer, rather than longer-ranging dogs

Any suggestions? My front runners right now are Langhaars, Red Setters, and on the retrieving side Golden Retrievers

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:13 am

I'm stumped. Lots of long haired dog can hunt the last 3, but the fur to include deer and hog, usually requires a hound in any way I know to hunt them, so I think it eliminates them all.

A Boykin might do it, but they are beneath your size standard. Small Munsterland? Too small? Wirehair?

I will tune in later.

P. S. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Langhaar it is, I don't know if they will start a deer or hog, but apparently they are used to recover game.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:22 am

Small or large Munsterlander.
Drathar
GSP
Pudel Pointer.
Weimaramer.
Please excuse the spelling.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:23 am

Also ask yourself honestly how much excersize will the dog get and how much dirt will the wife tolerate the dog bringing in on the coat. Do you like dogs that are spazzy and joyous all the time or mostly calm with spurts of field energy when needed. Or more methodical with hunting slower paced.

zachw · Post by **zachw** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:44 am

mountaindogs wrote:Also ask yourself honestly how much excersize will the dog get and how much dirt will the wife tolerate the dog bringing in on the coat. Do you like dogs that are spazzy and joyous all the time or mostly calm with spurts of field energy when needed. Or more methodical with hunting slower paced.

Great question- and this is something I've been thinking about. I think we'll need a dog that can be more calm when needed with energy when that's needed. If he's too high powered I can see it being an issue!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:03 am

Honestly I'm stumped on the deer and hogs too... but for everything else it sounds like you're looking for a springer... except its about 5-10 lbs too small. If you're looking for a versatile breed to do it all you can't go wrong with a field bred springer (unless size doesn't matter then of course I'd say english cocker hahaha).

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:05 am

Neil wrote: P. S. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Langhaar it is, I don't know if they will start a deer or hog, but apparently they are used to recover game.

Just searched langhaars! Those are awesome - they look like a massive cocker lol

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:16 am

Pudelpointer or solid shorthair.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:20 am

Large Munsterlanders fit that same niche and basic form factor as the DL's they share history but have been a separate breed for some time. black and white vs brown and white.

Out of curiosity, since deer and hog are on the todo list would there be an advantage to an import from Germany (where that is more normal) or just a breeder that test to the German standard?

zachw · Post by **zachw** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:07 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Honestly I'm stumped on the deer and hogs too... but for everything else it sounds like you're looking for a springer... except its about 5-10 lbs too small. If you're looking for a versatile breed to do it all you can't go wrong with a field bred springer (unless size doesn't matter then of course I'd say english cocker hahaha).

I should clarify this- I'm not looking for a dog to take down a hog, but I'm looking for a bird dog who could track a blood trail or retrieve a squirrel for me. Of course, this would just be a bonus. I only listed fur first because its what I do the most of, which is to say my dog and I won't be out chasing birds every week of the year. A lot of time will be spent out in the woods prepping for deer season- so a good companion is important!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:29 pm

Sounds like a GWP to me

Ezzy

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:48 pm

I have seen some very good Langhaars and Large Munsties . Both breeds would hunt and point and retrieve and both breeds would take a blood scent trail too ....if trained and perhaps without being trained on deer. I don't know about wild pigs, never see any. I'm told by the Munstie folk that they often give tongue when tracking deer or when they have found a dead or wounded deer. The drawback to a Munstie or a Langhaar might be their hunting range, the better dogs do tend to range out a bit. The Munstie has a mottled coat which you say you do not like ?

Personally I would not use a setter for deer or pig hunting but I do not doubt that some of them would do the job. If I were looking for an "easy-going" dog that isn't too hard to train , I'd maybe go for a Wire Haired Vizsla . I don't know how this breed would do if worked on pigs but probably O.K. if you don't need the dog to go in for a grip. Many of this breed are "softies" by nature and tend to hunt fairly close.

Bill T.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:57 pm

zachw wrote:I know I know, another one of these posts, but I have some specific criteria I'm looking for. I recently had to put down my 6 year old golden retriever/german shepherd mix. He wasn't a spectacular hunter, but in every other category he was really the best dog I ever had. I'm now looking for a more serious hunting dog, so what do I need?

I hunt or plan to hunt:
1) Fur (deer, hogs, small game)
2) Dove
3) Upland
4) Duck

Criteria:
1) My wife is only barely tolerating us getting a puppy, and she wants something that she considers pretty, which is anything without a mottled coat, and I generally prefer longer haired dogs
2) This is my first gun dog, so I'm looking for a pretty trainable dog. My last dog spoiled me- he was easy.
3) ~50 pounds or more
4) I prefer closer, rather than longer-ranging dogs

Any suggestions? My front runners right now are Langhaars, Red Setters, and on the retrieving side Golden Retrievers

Personally , any breed will do with the right training?
All these have had fur and feather and a few more besides!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:26 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Sounds like a GWP to me

Ezzy

Agreed, but not exactly a long, flowing coat.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:31 pm

Long flowing hair Both Musties.

zachw · Post by **zachw** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:19 pm

Neil wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Sounds like a GWP to me

Ezzy
Agreed, but not exactly a long, flowing coat.

Agreed x2

Trekmoor wrote: The drawback to a Munstie or a Langhaar might be their hunting range, the better dogs do tend to range out a bit. The Munstie has a mottled coat which you say you do not like ?
Bill T.

I LOVE the way those Large Munsterlanders look, but my wife would take some convincing. I could always tell her the color will "grow out" and by the time she catches on she'll be in love with the dog anyways...

I'd like to hear more about their long-ranging tendency. Is this a trainable characteristic?

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:33 pm

Large Munsterlander ....for sure

SpinoneIllinois · Post by **SpinoneIllinois** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:41 pm

Spinone!

Also maybe a DD, a Griff or GWP. Go check out the VersatileDogs forum.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:56 pm

SpinoneIllinois wrote:Spinone!

Also maybe a DD, a Griff or GWP. Go check out the VersatileDogs forum.

And I thought the last 3 were the same thing. I am out of my knowledge zone.

mtlhdr · Post by **mtlhdr** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:17 pm

Neil wrote:
SpinoneIllinois wrote:Spinone!

Also maybe a DD, a Griff or GWP. Go check out the VersatileDogs forum.
And I thought the last 3 were the same thing. I am out of my knowledge zone.

DD is basically german registered GWP, though I think lives have been lost arguing whether there's a difference or not :roll: Kinda like the DK vs GSP discussion. The griff was used as part of the mix to develop the DD/GWP. Seems to me any of the versatiles mentioned would meet the OP's needs, other than perhaps the need for a "pretty" dog. Afterall, the wirehaired versatiles are generally affectionately referred to a "ugly dogs."

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:32 pm

I think a DL or a male Small Munsterlander will fit your needs. The few Large Munsters I have not been impressed with.
But, I would stick to the German variety of the Longhaar(DL) and pretty similar to the same with the Small Munsterlander. I have 3 Small Munsterlanders. 2 of which I imported from Germany.
I use mine to track deer, ( I have video), hunt ducks( Opener is this weekend! YAY!), upland hunt and warm my feet. They are natural retrievers, hard working dogs that can settle nicely in the home.They are very clean and groom themselves constantly.
I am not a breeder and I am not pushing pups. Just stating the facts. You will hear people say that some lines dont have a strong point. But dont confuse that with them NOT pointing. You just may not get that pretty setter look that some like. But, you will have birds in the bag and that is a fact.

As with any breed do your research as there are dud breeders in every breed. Good luck

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:57 am

The German testing requires a kill also for their sharpness requirements. I've lost an English pointer to a very sharp DL.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:51 am

Any suggestions? My front runners right now are Langhaars, Red Setters, and on the retrieving side Golden Retrievers

I chose to go with a Deutsch Langhaar because I wanted a great looking dog that could do it all well. Our dogs have excelled in the German testing system, NAVHDA, and in real hunting situations in many states around the county. Just last week, VC Bianca vom Coraschatten passed the NAVHDA Invitational at the age of 23 months (making her the second youngest dog of any breed to pass the test). Please shoot me a PM if you have any questions or if you would like to meet some DLs in person to decide if they are the right breed for you.

I just tried to share some photos but PhotoBucket appears to be down. But if you visit our website (http://www.coraschatten.com), you can find several photos of our dogs with upland game, waterfowl, and furred game. Click on each individual dog's name under "Meet Our Langhaars" to view a slide show of each dog with different types of game that they have hunted.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:26 am

Looking at your list I would recommend a traditional German Shorthair

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:14 am

gotpointers wrote:The German testing requires a kill also for their sharpness requirements. I've lost an English pointer to a very sharp DL.

I dont know the DL you are talking about, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that the requirement of a sharpness test and the killing of your dog have nothing to do with each other. The DL killed your dog because it had a temperament issue and was dog aggressive.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:14 am

Munster wrote:
gotpointers wrote:The German testing requires a kill also for their sharpness requirements. I've lost an English pointer to a very sharp DL.

I dont know the DL you are talking about, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that the requirement of a sharpness test and the killing of your dog have nothing to do with each other. The DL killed your dog because it had a temperament issue and was dog aggressive.

I assure you it wasn't an isolated incident.

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:38 am

The " house " nature of the beast and the almost non-existent shedding- and the reasone you have- sold me on the PP's.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:12 am

Neil wrote:
SpinoneIllinois wrote:Spinone!

Also maybe a DD, a Griff or GWP. Go check out the VersatileDogs forum.
And I thought the last 3 were the same thing. I am out of my knowledge zone.

Despite the fact all those wire haired dogs look alike, they have very little if any genetic relation. The closest you can get is the cross-breeding of Spinone & GWP back and forth after WWII.

If you are looking for a close hunting dog with an absolute cannon of a nose and for fur and water a Spinone would be a good choice especially if you have kids or other animals. No dog in the versatile class can swim and water retriever as well as a Spinone, on average of course. They are slow and very messy but they can do a lot. By the way getting a dog from Italy is quite easy if you go that route. The breeder below in Italy has some really nice dogs. There is guy named Dan Spence in Ohio that has 2 VC's and breeds a bit.

http://www.spinonebuonvento.com/

GWP & DD's around kids is not always a great idea.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:13 am

This is easy. Get a setter, a lab and a new wife!

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:14 pm

gotpointers wrote:
Munster wrote:
gotpointers wrote:The German testing requires a kill also for their sharpness requirements. I've lost an English pointer to a very sharp DL.

I dont know the DL you are talking about, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that the requirement of a sharpness test and the killing of your dog have nothing to do with each other. The DL killed your dog because it had a temperament issue and was dog aggressive.

I assure you it wasn't an isolated incident.

Poor breeding is to blame here. I will leave it at that.

If what you are trying to spout were true statements, then EVERY DL, DD, DK and SM would not be able to hunt with other dogs because the other dogs would be killed.

I am not going to go into details about what the Hardness test is about. But most times, such as this one it is being very wrongfully represented. It was simply a way to gauge if a dog had the courage to push challenging situation and complete a task. Example, is your dog going to run through the narliest set of brammels and burs and retrieve that downed bird no matter how much it hurt or how difficult it was.

That is all I am going to say about the topic. For those that are interested, join a club, own one of these dogs and discover the truths for yourself.

BTW, as a side note, because a dog is willing to kill a furred animal while hunting doesnt make it a dog killer. How many on here have a hunting dog that has dispatched a furred game animal and yet has not ever attacked another dog? I have 3.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:58 am

I would go with a Wirehair/Shorthair..........JMO

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:32 pm

Munster
So you're calling me a liar but won't elaborate on the testing requirements. I agree 100% on the bad breeding but they're bred to pass the requirement set in place. A shorthair treeing a squirrel is a long ways away from a DL killing a fox on command for a judge to see. With testing requirements like that how safe is a
a yapping pup? I've had dogs get into fights for submission but it's way different than an intent to kill. And intent and results of death are what I witnessed and have had reported to me more than once out of the dl. And not just the ones I bought from separate individuals.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:55 pm

gotpointers wrote:Munster
So you're calling me a liar but won't elaborate on the testing requirements. I agree 100% on the bad breeding but they're bred to pass the requirement set in place. A shorthair treeing a squirrel is a long ways away from a DL killing a fox on command for a judge to see. With testing requirements like that how safe is a
a yapping pup? I've had dogs get into fights for submission but it's way different than an intent to kill. And intent and results of death are what I witnessed and have had reported to me more than once out of the dl. And not just the ones I bought from separate individuals.

Apparently you THINK you know so much about it that I dont need to elaborate Sir. But, I do know your story and hope that the OP doesnt put much weight in what you are saying.

In respect to the OP I will not post further. If the OP would like facts, they will know where to find them now.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:08 pm

gotpointers wrote:A shorthair treeing a squirrel is a long ways away from a DL killing a fox on command for a judge to see. With testing requirements like that how safe is a
a yapping pup?

Do they use live fox? Is that a regional thing? I've only seen coons used here and heard about cats, but I don't personally participate in that system, since I have AKC dogs. The test fox I know of, are long deceased and used for drags, and fox-in-the-box (sorry if that's not the correct terminology).

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:18 pm

wems2371 wrote:
gotpointers wrote:A shorthair treeing a squirrel is a long ways away from a DL killing a fox on command for a judge to see. With testing requirements like that how safe is a
a yapping pup?
Do they use live fox? Is that a regional thing? I've only seen coons used here and heard about cats, but I don't personally participate in that system, since I have AKC dogs. The test fox I know of, are long deceased and used for drags, and fox-in-the-box (sorry if that's not the correct terminology).

Fox in a box is going on in Germany currently. I'm not pushing anyone away from a longhair but I encourage them to talk to the person who's been raising them here since the 70s and raises birddogs.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:31 pm

Hey, I think we have answered the op's question as best we could, but with his indulgence I would like to know more about the fox/cat killing test. How would trap enough foxes to run such a test? Now cats are readily available, and perhaps a good use for the feral ones. The cat sitting in my lap just woke up long enough to give me a dirty look, I excempt house cats.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Neil I would think the Germans must have some sort of fox farm. Afterall we Americans have the moonlight bunny ranch in Nevada

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:08 pm

Neil wrote:Hey, I think we have answered the op's question as best we could, but with his indulgence I would like to know more about the fox/cat killing test. How would trap enough foxes to run such a test? Now cats are readily available, and perhaps a good use for the feral ones. The cat sitting in my lap just woke up long enough to give me a dirty look, I excempt house cats.

Neil, the poor lad hasnt a clue what he is talking about. Fox farms for hrdness tests! Ha HA HA HAH Geez! :roll:

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:45 pm

I called it sharpness you called it hardness. The Fox farm statement is good old American humour. Judging from your pictures I knew the moonlight bunny ranch would go right over your head.

Escopeton · Post by **Escopeton** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:28 pm

Hey Zachw,

Are there any clubs in the area featuring the dogs you are looking to go into? It could give some idea of what is out there. This thread is starting to become a pissing match.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:24 pm

I wish you would not have called me a liar earlier and I would have left it alone Munster. I now know why the sensitivity came up with you. http://www.huntingmunsterlanders.com/Photo-Gallery.html if that's what floats your boat great! This is America!! But don't deny that the fact that an unknowing buyer's wife's cat or lapdog may suffer the same fate as the fox in your own dogs picture. I hate varmits more than 99% of the population I think. But I'd expect a heads up on the possible side effects when considering a purchase.

Jdub389 · Post by **Jdub389** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:50 pm

Check out the Wachtelhund or as its been nicknamed here in America the "German spaniel." it will literally hunt everything that would want it to, longhaired, and generally the males should be over 50lbs. Really a cool dog, that hasn't quote caught on in popularity yet.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:20 pm

gotpointers wrote:I wish you would not have called me a liar earlier and I would have left it alone Munster. I now know why the sensitivity came up with you. http://www.huntingmunsterlanders.com/Photo-Gallery.html if that's what floats your boat great! This is America!! But don't deny that the fact that an unknowing buyer's wife's cat or lapdog may suffer the same fate as the fox in your own dogs picture. I hate varmits more than 99% of the population I think. But I'd expect a heads up on the possible side effects when considering a purchase.

What does living in America have anything to do with anything. What, we are only allowed to hunt birds here? :roll:
Properly bred German dogs are not. Once again you miss the point because of ignorance. Any hunting breed can be sharp on game. But you chose to focus in on the German breed??? Interesting.
I hope you enjoy the pictures you posted from my site. Now you know what working dogs can do.

You need to stop making general statements, especially when you havent a clue what you are talking about.

Thats it for me. If you think you need some more education on the matter, you can contact me by PM.

zachw · Post by **zachw** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:01 am

Escopeton wrote:Hey Zachw,

Are there any clubs in the area featuring the dogs you are looking to go into? It could give some idea of what is out there. This thread is starting to become a pissing match.

This thread got a little weird, but back to business.

Yeah that's what I need to do. Anyone have any LM breeder suggestions here in Texas?

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:44 am

Hi Zach,

One of our puppy buyers in Texas also has a couple of older Large Munsterlanders. I'm sure he would be happy to talk to you about the differences between the breeds and make recommendations on LM breeders if you decide to go that route. Also, it looks like you are in Dallas. One of our pups is right there in Dallas too. We can put you in touch with both folks when we touch base later today.

Have fun with your search! It is really fun to research dogs and meet as many as you can before making a final decision.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:40 am

Munster just remember opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they all stink

. If it is not a pointer your friend gotpointers will never have anything good to say but the negative's of the subject breed and their owners will be posted for all to see(because they are all the same).

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:52 am

whatsnext wrote:Munster just remember opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they all stink . If it is not a pointer your friend gotpointers will never have anything good to say but the negative's of the subject breed and their owners will be posted for all to see(because they are all the same).

For the first part it sounds like you have an experienced nose so ill take your word for it. Second I currently own pointers, setters, labradors and a German shorthair. I've worked with Brittanys and hunted with wirehairs. I've owned a Deutsche langhaar and one generation out German longhairs. I've said it here many times before I don't care if it's pink and green and only has three legs if it finds the most birds that's the dog I want. But I will not tolerate a dog that kills other dogs.