Is Pointing Genetic?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:20 am

Is pointing genetic?

If you believe it is, can you identify a similar trait in other animals selectively bred for it?

Gaited horses are the only one I can come up with, and I think it more physical than behavioral.

In dogs we have retrievers that like to carry things, and herding dogs seem to want like animals together, but is that the same as pointing?

Neil

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:29 am

http://wenaha.blogspot.ca/2008/04/genet ... nting.html

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:54 am

All predators have a "pause before pounce" mechanize , think about it the next time you want to smack a fly. I would venture to say that after 3- 4 seconds it's more of an obedience/training thing than instinct. The pause was always there, un-natural selection (selective breeding) made it stronger.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:56 am

I do believe there is a hard wiring which some traits are inherited. Animals IN translation By Temple Grandin explains what and how animals related and process things.

I have seen things which even though the female only whelped the litter and her pups were raised by another female..The pups from this one had some same traits the mother had.
Or another litter the mother always would spin to the right when she got nervous..her pups did the very same thing

So can pointing be genetic...I do there is something there specially when you begin to do more line type breeding you can get more consistency from pups versus mediocre outcrossing.
Bob wheles Book Snakefoot the best part of that book was the very beginning when he was talking about the fox they raised for pelts to many years to have consistent litters producing that top quality pelt and in less then 3 generations of not culling out and breeding only those that would carry on the gene of that high quality coat and the consistency was gone.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:17 pm

can you identify a similar trait in other animals selectively bred for it

Dogs that instinctively 'tree' game
Dogs that instinctively go to ground
hounds that instinctively trail by ground scent
cutting horses

I came up with these in thirty seconds, I know there are many other examples.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:00 pm

Pointing is genetic - buy a well bred Pointer pup at 6 weeks of age and put it out with a pup of any other breed (even those supposedly bred for pointing) and you will immediately have confirmation of the fact.
Problem is, not many breeders of any other breed actually breed for it. I am not so sure that Pointer folks are necessarily selecting for it anymore either.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:21 pm

rinker wrote:
can you identify a similar trait in other animals selectively bred for it
Dogs that instinctively 'tree' game
Dogs that instinctively go to ground
hounds that instinctively trail by ground scent
cutting horses

I came up with these in thirty seconds, I know there are many other examples.

There is nothing like a well bred cutting horse when working cattle ..

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:29 pm

Individual discrimination in bloodhounds, hard eye in Border collies, gameness in terriers, running vs. treeing in Julys, grippiness in ACDs.......

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:51 pm

rinker wrote:
can you identify a similar trait in other animals selectively bred for it
Dogs that instinctively 'tree' game
Dogs that instinctively go to ground
hounds that instinctively trail by ground scent
cutting horses

I came up with these in thirty seconds, I know there are many other examples.

I have never seen prey go up a tree and the dog not look to get it, same withe the game going to ground. If there is no air/body scent they must follow ground scent or ignore. Perhaps what we call a cold nose is genetic.

I simply do not know about cutting horses, I have always thought it was a combination of physicality and training. If not trained, do they pen cattle when not under saddle?

None of those seem like standing watching/scenting prey while waiting for a human to come by and kill it for them

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Sharon wrote:http://wenaha.blogspot.ca/2008/04/genet ... nting.html

Sharon,

I exchanged e-mails with Dr. Neff and contributed swabs from FCs. He has had more than 5 years, and I have not seen his findings published. Just his theory. I think he failed.

I have no doubt there are many genetic determined traits; color, size, strength, speed, temperment, agility, and on and on. But I am just not sure about behaviors being inherited.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:09 pm

Everything is genetic in one way or the other.
At least that's my theory! I am not a scientist and don't play one on TV! But I have watched enough generations of closely bred dogs to believe it.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:11 pm

Neil wrote:
Sharon wrote:http://wenaha.blogspot.ca/2008/04/genet ... nting.html
Sharon,

I exchanged e-mails with Dr. Neff and contributed swabs from FCs. He has had more than 5 years, and I have not seen his findings published. Just his theory. I think he failed.

I have no doubt there are many genetic determined traits; color, size, strength, speed, temperment, agility, and on and on. But I am just not sure about behaviors being inherited.

Interesting. I seem to be leading you astray this week.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:53 pm

Neil wrote:
I simply do not know about cutting horses, I have always thought it was a combination of physicality and training. If not trained, do they pen cattle when not under saddle?

You can train a horse to respond to cues from the rider, even very, very subtle ones, but you cannot train for "cow". They have it or they don't, and folks breed for it.

Not only is the herding instinct genetic (as in you can make positive breeding selections for it), the manner in which herding dogs herd is also genetic. If you want a harder dog (more bite) you can breed in some Heeler blood. The Rough Collie is a hard breed that works the head of the animal. The Border Collie is soft and works the heels. Corgis will work under the animal.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:55 pm

fuzznut wrote:Everything is genetic in one way or the other.

They can test an unborn calf and tell you if the finished animal will have a generally pleasing taste, texture and tenderness to the meat.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:02 pm

If its not genetic why are breeds different ? Why wouldn't hounds point coons before they grab them?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:06 pm

Chukar12 wrote:If its not genetic why are breeds different ? Why wouldn't hounds point coons before they grab them?

The phase of the prey sequence where truncation occurs is genetic. Coppinger, et al, had evidence to that.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:12 pm

Is pointing genetic -------- YES

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:36 pm

I fintd the cutting horse and herding dogs the closest to a pointing dog. So thanks for the help.

Still keep wondering why Dr. Neff has not published his results.!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:54 pm

I am astonished that anyone would even debate that behaviors and actions are not inherited? Pigeons inherit the homing ability, horses inherit running or pulling abilities, plus a thousand more examples. If behaviors are not inherited why are we breeding any animal and trying to convince people we are doing it for the betterment of the breed?

Ezzy

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:03 pm

I'm a little late to this, but we have a cutting bred appy here that I have watched move both sheep and cattle on his own without a rider.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:18 pm

Neil wrote:I fintd the cutting horse and herding dogs the closest to a pointing dog. So thanks for the help.

Still keep wondering why Dr. Neff has not published his results.!

He's still very active in canine research:

http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-he ... -ding.html

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:31 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I am astonished that anyone would even debate that behaviors and actions are not inherited? Pigeons inherit the homing ability, horses inherit running or pulling abilities, plus a thousand more examples. If behaviors are not inherited why are we breeding any animal and trying to convince people we are doing it for the betterment of the breed?

Ezzy

I am astonished you do not have the intellectual curiosity to question what is accepted as common knowlerge. It was once common knowledge the earth was flat, bleeding was a cure for fever, that we could not return from space, plus a thousand more examples.

I also question the whole effectiveness of selective breeding. Humans without any regard to breeding (except for the Mannings) set new speed records in track and swimming every couple years, while race horses and greyhounds, where millions are spent on breeding, have not set a track records in 30 years.

I am not sure about the pigeons homming, I suspect man has had little to do with the trait. With horses it is a physical attribute, not a behavior.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:45 am

Yes pointing is genetic . If it were not then I think the behaviour would become "extinct" within days to a few months of our ceasing to praise a dog for it.
We see a pointing pup beginning to point birds, we quietly and gently praise for the point. In time the pup begins to hold for longer on it's point and we keep on praising. If that praise is then no longer given for the rest of the pups life it will continue to point anyway. I cease to praise pointing dogs just as soon as they hold steady on point. Like thousands of other people I train my dogs to make a commanded flush from their points and I praise for the flush. That flush is sometimes rewarded with praise and sometimes with a bird being shot over the dog but the point was not rewarded and may not have been rewarded for 10 years. The dog still points however even knowing that it is the next stage, the flush, that gets the reward .
The flush is, of course, a genetic behaviour too but in purpose bred pointers the point is a very strong instinct that isn't too easily made extinct.

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:14 am

Neil wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I am astonished that anyone would even debate that behaviors and actions are not inherited? Pigeons inherit the homing ability, horses inherit running or pulling abilities, plus a thousand more examples. If behaviors are not inherited why are we breeding any animal and trying to convince people we are doing it for the betterment of the breed?

Ezzy
I am astonished you do not have the intellectual curiosity to question what is accepted as common knowlerge. It was once common knowledge the earth was flat, bleeding was a cure for fever, that we could not return from space, plus a thousand more examples.

I also question the whole effectiveness of selective breeding. Humans without any regard to breeding (except for the Mannings) set new speed records in track and swimming every couple years, while race horses and greyhounds, where millions are spent on breeding, have not set a track records in 30 years.

I am not sure about the pigeons homming, I suspect man has had little to do with the trait. With horses it is a physical attribute, not a behavior.

Kind of strange that two old geezers are astonished at the same time but one of the necessities of any change must be the physical abilities to perform at that level. Greyhounds and race horses show little if any change.
Ezzy

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:37 am

Homing pigeons' ancestors homed, we only enhance that behavior. Same as what has been done with pointers, but more human influence was involved with dogs. A wild example; Aleutian peregrine falcons will fly out to sea at very long distances in search of prey in very dense fog and practically no visibility and will return to within 50' of their nest site. That has been documented. It is hard wired as is pointing in pointers. Yes, I believe it is genetic.

Steve

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:49 am

I have no doubt that there are millions of examples of adaptive behavior that have a strong gentic component, I am not denying evolution.

What I am not so sure about the role man can have in a relative short period of time. The whole purebred thing is only about 150 years old, pointing dogs less. My observation over the past 50 years the top pointers have not significantly improved, the average however has greatly improved.

Let me give evidence of both sides, anecdotal it may be:

When he was 5 years old my son trained his 12 pound cock-a-poo steady to wing and shot, his ground coverage wasn't great and he had a bad sickle tail, but he learned to point and was staunch. Pretty sure there were no pointing dogs in his background, the point was all training.

A few years later he got a cow dog that was never trained, but instinctively herded. He was a true segregationist, he was obsessed keeping like animals together; he would get the horses in one group, then the ducks, and on to the chickens, then the puppies, and even my son and his friends. Then repeat, again and again.

I am just not sure about pointing.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:39 am

If pointing isn't genetic, why is it not an inborn trait of all breeds, rather than just a few? Why is the trait stronger in some individuals of the pointing breeds than others? If point is merely taught, there would have been no need to develop pointing breeds.

Your son's cockapoo has some gundog in it's background, by definition

Any dog can be taught in one way or another to stand a bird. Some dogs of 'off' breeds might have some natural point. But neither group will have the intensity and consistency of pointing breeds.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:59 am

I am pretty sure the cocker and poodle that made up my sons cockapoo were flushing dogs.

Animals I have seen point:

Pointing Labs
Cats - wild, feral, and demestic
Foxes
Coyotes

So we agree we have 3 man enhanced behaviors - pointing dogs, cutting horses, and herding dogs. And perhaps cold tracking hounds.

Thanks for helping me think through this.

Neil

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:14 pm

Neil wrote:I am pretty sure the cocker and poodle that made up my sons cockapoo were flushing dogs.

Animals I have seen point:

Pointing Labs
Cats - wild, feral, and demestic
Foxes
Coyotes

So we agree we have 3 man enhanced behaviors - pointing dogs, cutting horses, and herding dogs. And perhaps cold tracking hounds.

Thanks for helping me think through this.

Neil

So Neil, have you seen dogs that instinctively point birds and not any other animal as a 4 month old pup? There is no human enhancement there. What about sight pointing vs. scent pointing - they are not the same behavior and they certainly don't exist in the same relationships in any individual dog.

When you say you have not seen any improvement in the Pointers in the past 50 years are you talking in general or specifically in the aspect of innate, instinctive, inherited POINT. There are so many things that we look at in determining whether a pointing dog is a good dog, the vast majority of which have absolutely nothing to do with actually pointing. In the end, most of what we are selecting for has nothing to do with actual pointing. Which I think would be one good reason why taking submissions from a bunch of FC dogs to try and isolate the pointing gene and its associated modifiers ( there are obviously some type of modifiers at work here) is a poor approach as there is no real guarantee that the expression of the pointing gene is anywhere at all similar in any of those dogs.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:18 pm

Neil wrote:I am pretty sure the cocker and poodle that made up my sons cockapoo were flushing dogs.

Neil

Why do serious breeders of flushing dogs cull "sticky" dogs?
Why do serious cowmen cull cows that have a "wild eye" at calving time, along with their heifer calf even when they need replacement heifers?
Why was Beans Blaze so influential in the Brittany breed?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Neil I am not sure I am truly following, but if I am I agree with you. I am not sure if such a thing as a pointing gene exists or not, and if it does I would imagine all dogs have it. It is probably just a behaviour that has been selectively bred for and exagerrated through selective breeding.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:30 pm

No doubt in my mind.

Charlie

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:28 pm

Neil, I don't train my pointers to point and really don't teach them to hold. With the line of pointers I have they are generally finding, pointing, and holding birds until I can get there and walk in and flush at 10 months old. I just let them be puppies until they are over a year old. It's gotten me into trouble because they can be difficult to round up but it's fun watching those genetic traits come out as they mature.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:52 pm

Neil wrote: When he was 5 years old my son trained his 12 pound cock-a-poo steady to wing and shot, his ground coverage wasn't great and he had a bad sickle tail, but he learned to point and was staunch. Pretty sure there were no pointing dogs in his background, the point was all training.

This hearkens to the argument surrounding the Pointing Lab. Are they actually pointing? Is there a difference between "trained to stand game" and "pointing". Pointing dog aficionados would say they are not.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Sorry if this takes the thread a bit off-course ..... if pointing is genetic as I'm sure it is, just how much part does genetics play in having a dog that backs the points of other dogs ? I've had dogs that backed completely naturally but I've also had a couple with which I had to develop and encourage a backing point.

Bill T.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:09 pm

IMO backing and scent pointing are similar but not the same behaviors. Backing is genetic.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:19 pm

I haven't been around very long, but I have never seen a natural backer. I have seen dogs put two and two together very quickly that dog standing there on point = bird there and back with little fuss right off the bat, but are there actually dogs that just back other dogs that are on UP's or a silloutte with no bird?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:26 pm

I have had a couple of natural backers. One will back a bucket.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:49 pm

Winchey wrote:I haven't been around very long, but I have never seen a natural backer. I have seen dogs put two and two together very quickly that dog standing there on point = bird there and back with little fuss right off the bat, but are there actually dogs that just back other dogs that are on UP's or a silloutte with no bird?

How would a backing dog know if there is a bird there or not? Moving into the scent cone and pointing is not backing.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:56 pm

How do you explain "flash pointing" which happens in some breeds like spaniels that are bred to flush hard?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:07 am

Cass, when spaniels flash point they are showing what every dog has ....but to hugely varying degrees, the inherited instinct to point. My cocker flushed and chased and I could not catch the little devil so I made use of the "flashpoint" he often did just prior to the flush. I worked on that and changed it into a point. That, in turn, gave me the chance to control the chase following the flush.
If a spaniel did that short little point in one of your trials it would, I think, be eliminated ? Our K.C. instructions to spaniel judges say something like "Pointing is to be considered an added excellence." I don't think our spaniel judges pay much attention to that but the old timers who first made up the rules obviously valued a dogs pointing instinct. The spaniels, by the way, did not have to hold their points and they could "self-flush" at once having done their flash-point. The thing that was valued by the old-time spaniel men was that half second to 5 seconds of flashpoint which gave warning to get ready to shoot.

Bill T.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:09 am

slistoe wrote:
Winchey wrote:I haven't been around very long, but I have never seen a natural backer. I have seen dogs put two and two together very quickly that dog standing there on point = bird there and back with little fuss right off the bat, but are there actually dogs that just back other dogs that are on UP's or a silloutte with no bird?
How would a backing dog know if there is a bird there or not? Moving into the scent cone and pointing is not backing.

From experience. From approaching dogs on point and birds always getting up.

Who said moving into the scentcone was backing?

Put a bird in a big clump of grass in a manacured lawn and have a dog point it a few times. Many will start pointing the clump of grass, bird or no bird after a few stale set ups. They equate grass clump to bird, no different thwn whwn they see a dog on point in my mind.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:39 am

Winchey wrote:I haven't been around very long, but I have never seen a natural backer. I have seen dogs put two and two together very quickly that dog standing there on point = bird there and back with little fuss right off the bat, but are there actually dogs that just back other dogs that are on UP's or a silloutte with no bird?

I never had a dog which didn't honor naturally and have never trained one to back. No doubt honor and point are genetic.
In the pack world the canines who busted dinner probably didn't last very long............................... Cj

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:44 am

Pup blew right past a live dog on point once

Pup stole a point once

Pup stopped dead in his tracks at a real dog on point twice

Pup stopped dead in his tracks happening upon his "backing dog" three times now

I never whoa'd him save one time on a real dog and probably didn't have to.

During this encounter yesterday he came around the corner and stopped immediately and then wanted to step in very slowly until I whoa'd him. He then stood as I moved and kicked around in front of the backing dog for about 3 minutes or so...he only broke after I laid the BD down flat and then walked over to tap his head...natural? (Now of course this was in the yard and there was no bird in this sequence)

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:50 am

This past Feb or so is when I "tested" his backing to see what he would do.

I set the backing dog up pointing at a live bird dizzied about 30' feet in front and well hidden.

Brought pup out and the second he came around the corner he slammed into a point, he was upwind of the bird.

I didn't say anything and he just held it. As the wind shifted his direction he slowly turned his head toward the bird and stood. I cc'd him and had a partner go in and pet the backing dog and then proceed to move ahead kicking around the grass intentionally all around the bird. Once I cued my partner to kick close to the bird pup reared back and came to attention but did not break. Partner kicked the bird up and pulled the trigger on a blank. Pup responded but held his ground as I was there with the CC to pull up on the slip lead gently. He stood and broke only once I tapped his head and went straight to the spot where the bird was, sniffed around and started hunting after looking the backing dog over for a second or two. If I had not had him on CC I believe he would have broke at least at the blanks report. I would guess that his picking up the bird possibly encouraged an association but he did legit back before he even winded the bird.

Natural?

BirdCrazy · Post by **BirdCrazy** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:14 am

It is absolutely genetic. My vizsla and gsp point, but my boxer does not. He loves to chase, but point he will not do.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:20 am

I saw my brit pup back when she was 4-5 months old. She backed the vizsla on a pheasant. I never saw her back again until about a week ago, she's now 10-11 months, when she suddenly began to back every point the viszla made . The thing that looks like a hose-pipe in the second pic is the viszla's tail. :roll:

These pics were taken yesterday.

I did nothing to persuade her to back other than to give her the chances to.

Bill T.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:52 am

Winchey wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Winchey wrote:I haven't been around very long, but I have never seen a natural backer. I have seen dogs put two and two together very quickly that dog standing there on point = bird there and back with little fuss right off the bat, but are there actually dogs that just back other dogs that are on UP's or a silloutte with no bird?
How would a backing dog know if there is a bird there or not? Moving into the scent cone and pointing is not backing.
From experience. From approaching dogs on point and birds always getting up.

Who said moving into the scentcone was backing?

Put a bird in a big clump of grass in a manacured lawn and have a dog point it a few times. Many will start pointing the clump of grass, bird or no bird after a few stale set ups. They equate grass clump to bird, no different thwn whwn they see a dog on point in my mind.

You wanted to know if the dog will back without knowing there is a bird there - the only way they "know" there is a bird is if they get scent of the birds - right? Most dogs I have owned back the backing dummy on their own the first time they see it. They have no way of "knowing" there is a bird there.

Dogs are also very good situational learners. Which is good for us in many instances, such as when we have a dog with little backing instinct we can quickly teach the dog (or waken the instinct as some folks think of it).

Some dogs are very eager to please and will repeat behaviors which were pleasurable to them in the past - sometimes with great time lapses between such that we have forgotten that the prior situation existed. However, in your example you might be discounting the effect of residual scent triggering behaviors as well. I had one dog that knew the drill when I put the CC on her in the yard and was looking for any excuse to go on point. She pointed a brush and I could not make her move - then I remembered that I had placed a bird there 3 days before when working a different dog but it had flown immediately on me and I hadn't actually worked a dog on it. So I started testing her. In good scenting conditions she would point 5 day old scent. She did not point random trees/shrubs/grass clumps etc. that were typical of where birds were planted in training, nor places that had actually been used in training with her where a bird had been flushed maybe 10 minutes prior. Somehow she differentiated those.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:04 pm

Neil wrote:I have no doubt that there are millions of examples of adaptive behavior that have a strong gentic component, I am not denying evolution.

What I am not so sure about the role man can have in a relative short period of time. The whole purebred thing is only about 150 years old, pointing dogs less. My observation over the past 50 years the top pointers have not significantly improved, the average however has greatly improved.

Let me give evidence of both sides, anecdotal it may be:

I am just not sure about pointing.

Neil I know you are older but You are not that old

Here is a book written in 1872 when Edward Laverack was 73 plus years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ly0CAA ... &q&f=false

There are some older books out which talk and deal with the sporting breeds Funny part in this book Edward Lavarack was worried about how the Bench will ruin the breed.

I was interested on page 9 where he even discusses the South Esk which was just basically a line of the tri color englsh setters that was owned and bred by the Earl of South Esk in Forfarshire But even Mr Lavarack discusses " ...they were well known to be good staunch dogs and HIGHLY appreciated." ....

Anyways Just saying

There are some books on google that were written in the 1700's which amazingly enough one describes the Spaniel as a pointing dog

Came across that as I was trying to find out some info on breeds of dogs from beyond yesteryear

tjsnipehunter · Post by **tjsnipehunter** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:59 am

Neil wrote: What I am not so sure about the role man can have in a relative short period of time. The whole purebred thing is only about 150 years old, pointing dogs less. My observation over the past 50 years the top pointers have not significantly improved, the average however has greatly improved.

First just how much better do the best dogs have to point? Some dogs will point for as long as it takes to find them with a gps collar half a mile away. Not sure how much more point anyone could expect. They aren't going to point a wing before their eyes are open, even baby birds have to learn to fly.

Vizsla, or their ancestors, have been pointing for falconers and netters for centuries before guns. Pointing has been around a long time. While registration may only be 150 years old pure breeding has been around a whole heck of a lot longer. Just as often from isolation as on purpose but it was around.

If some dogs don't have genetic behaviors bred into them I sure wish someone would have told that 8 week old heeler I was recently around. I'd like to know who was training it to nip at the heels of anything, and anybody, who walked by.

Non of the other breeds of pups around that day did it as much as she did. They didn't like it any better then the people did either.

Lots of animals have behaviors that are clearly genetic/instinctual. I know pigeons have been brought up with homing. There are even some that have been bred not to home. If they get out of visual contact with the loft they can have trouble. Other such as show homers are not being bred for it and can lose it, sort of like show dogs in hunting breeds.

We have bred some herding animals such as sheep to herd even more compulsively so that they stick together even more. In some places more primitive sheep breeds do not herd like merino sheep do. Merinos were bred to herd tightly, not taught how to do it.

Tim