Is Pointing Genetic?

[Jere]

...

I also question the whole effectiveness of selective breeding. Humans without any regard to breeding (except for the Mannings) set new speed records in track and swimming every couple years, while race horses and greyhounds, where millions are spent on breeding, have not set a track records in 30 years.
...

The effectiveness of selective breeding is obvious in cases where the mode of inheritance is known and a single or small number of genes are involved. Coat color in Labrador retrievers is a relatively simple example to understand. In this case the genetic type of one's breeding stock can be established by relatively inexpensive genetic testing and a line of any of the three accepted colors established by selective breeding in very few generations. The lines so created will breed true forever (barring mutations caused by chance or some external influence.)

The examples you give as counter examples are not obviously examples of measures attributable solely or perhaps even primarily to behavioral characteristics of the humans or other animals mentioned. Is their evidence that human athletic performance would not rapidly benefit from a selective breeding program? What were the Soviets up to during the cold war years? Could it be racehorses and greyhounds have reached the pinnacle of performance determined by physical structure through the breeding programs of the past? The whole doping thing clouds athletic performance records of late.

Perhaps you meant to restrict your doubt of the effectiveness of selective breeding to behavioral characteristics? If so further study may convince you otherwise. One might start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
and go on to references found there or through a Google search for some obvious key words.

I have been told line breeding Labradors which point will produce dogs too sticky to be useful in but a few generations - the number five was mentioned. I have not seen supportive data, but I have seen Labradors I am pretty confident did point as a natural inherited act. As counterpoint, I am not confident a large percentage of so called "pointing Labradors" do so.

One thing I have wondered about and some members here might shed some light on is the possible recent evolution of "point" in pointers. I've read occasional references to litters of EPs which display (or individuals in the litter display) rather weak 'point. By this I believe is meant point does not appear as early as one might expect and much knock/chase may be required to finally get the dogs pointing. Other measures of "strength" of point might be meant. They may display a point which needs frequent work to remind the dog of the rules - suggesting it is a learned behavior rather than inherited. If this is real a discussion of why and how this could happen and what it may mean about the "genetics" of the dogs might make an interesting topic for another thread.

Another example is similar evolution of some salient characteristics of the Labrador retriever. I have one here that is, among other things, really marginal with respect to the tendency to carry things in his mouth compared to my several prior Labs. Yes, he will grab something offered, apparently with joy, and carry it for a few yards or tens of yards but then he puts it down and loses interest. On a scale of 0 to 9 I'd score him in the 1 - 3 area. He could be an anomaly or indicative of breeding programs misdirected in some way.

There will always be a distribution of the "level" of such attributes in any breed or line (as long as we don't end up with lines of clones). But if the selective breeding program is working for the betterment of the breed or line the spread from the best individuals to the worst should get narrower over generations or at least remain stable while the average moves towards "better" or is stable. To begin to see the distribution of some important hallmark characteristic such as "point" in EPs or "carry" in Labrador retrievers widen and/or the average to move towards "poorer" says something is going wrong in the overall breeding program.

I have no doubt "point" is inherited. I have no doubt a behavior which mimics "point" (at least superficially) can be learned by a some dogs through experience. I have no doubt such a behavior can be trained by active effort of a sufficiently motivated human interacting with some dogs. What is really interesting is whether such behaviors can be told apart by observing them and too what the differences in the DNA might be. Dr. Neff probably needs money to do the work!

Jere

[Winchey]

I was thinking about the counter example the other day regarding humans. We are selectively bred to an extent, it is just not often selected by someone else, the selection is generally done by 2 individuals. We also have a population that is growing by the billions, more money, better diets, better training, better equipment etc ...

[gonehuntin']

When he was 5 years old my son trained his 12 pound cock-a-poo steady to wing and shot, his ground coverage wasn't great and he had a bad sickle tail, but he learned to point and was staunch. Pretty sure there were no pointing dogs in his background, the point was all training.

That's it. Point was all training. Turn loose a young pointing dog pup and they'll slam on point right out of the chute with no training. That's genetic. I think you could teach a raccoon to point with traps and enough time.

A few years later he got a cow dog that was never trained, but instinctively herded. He was a true segregationist, he was obsessed keeping like animals together; he would get the horses in one group, then the ducks, and on to the chickens, then the puppies, and even my son and his friends. Then repeat, again and again.

I am just not sure about pointing.

Now there you have a true genetic trait. Pretty easy to see the difference. A genetic trait surfaces with no training or development.

[gonehuntin']

I think that ANY dog trainer would agree that a dog's traits are genetic. National Champions produce other Champions. That's why they're so sought after to be bred to.

All you have to do is work in a hunting dog kennel where dogs that are from every description of breeding are brought in for training. Doesn't matter if they're pointers or retrievers. The $50.00 newspaper pups turn out to be $50.00 newspaper pups and an pain in the a$$ to train.

[Jere]

...
Now there you have a true genetic trait. Pretty easy to see the difference. A genetic trait surfaces with no training or development.

And on a schedule. That is, also programmed along with the behavior is an "onset" age at which the behavior appears.

It has been said several times here, in the EP especially, "point" appears before the puppy is more than a couple or so months old. I have a Lab. puppy, now 29 months old from titled "pointing Lab." parents which has yet to show any sign of "point." I will be hard pressed to assert he is displaying an inherited point if he ever starts "pointing." I will do nothing to encourage or discourage him in that regard aside from giving him all the opportunity to interact with birds, mostly wild, I can. At this late stage I will be more likely to suspect a learned behavior than inherited and, to me, that doesn't equal Pointing lab.

The book "Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution" by Raymond Coppinger (Author) , Lorna Coppinger (Author), Chapter 6 "Behavioral Conformation" is good on this stuff though it may be a bit rough going for most readers. I suspect many here won't agree with their discussion of pointers though

Jere

[clink83]

I fintd the cutting horse and herding dogs the closest to a pointing dog. So thanks for the help.

Still keep wondering why Dr. Neff has not published his results.!

Do you have the resources to take the genome of dogs, sequence it, identify all the coding vs non coding regions, figure out all the alternate ways to splice mRNA, study how environmental cues affect gene expression, and then still statistically compare pointing dog genes to the general population? What if pointing involves >10 genes like hip displasia?

Its genetic, period. Innate behaivor always has a genetic basis, otherwise you can't breed for it. You can FF any dog or teach it to stand up/ stand still, but its offspring won't gain that behavior because its not genetic. A dog bred to point or retrieve will almost always do it without training OTOH. There is always a mix of genetics and learning when it comes to behavior, but to say its not genetic flies in the face of basic biology.

[Neil]

I fintd the cutting horse and herding dogs the closest to a pointing dog. So thanks for the help.

Still keep wondering why Dr. Neff has not published his results.!

Do you have the resources to take the genome of dogs, sequence it, identify all the coding vs non coding regions, figure out all the alternate ways to splice mRNA, study how environmental cues affect gene expression, and then still statistically compare pointing dog genes to the general population? What if pointing involves >10 genes like hip displasia?

Its genetic, period. Innate behaivor always has a genetic basis, otherwise you can't breed for it. You can FF any dog or teach it to stand up/ stand still, but its offspring won't gain that behavior because its not genetic. A dog bred to point or retrieve will almost always do it without training OTOH. There is always a mix of genetics and learning when it comes to behavior, but to say its not genetic flies in the face of basic biology.

I don't have the resources, but suspect Dr. Neff does. It may fly in the face of your knowledge of biology, but I have yet to see it proved.

For the record, I believe there may well be a genetic component to pointing.

[ezzy333]

If there isn't genetics you can't breed for it.

Ezzy

[Neil]

If there isn't genetics you can't breed for it.

Ezzy

True, but you can think you are. If all mammal predators instinctively point, how would you know?

So the question might be better stated is the pointing gene universal in all canines?

If not properly trained many spaniels will hang up on the flush, a point if you would, and is a major flaw. They keep trying to breed it out.

At best, with the information we have now, a scientist would admit that a special gene unique to pointing dogs is a theory.

[ezzy333]

As long as you make this hypothetical there will never be an answer. According to many people on here hanging up on a flush isn't pointing or at least that is what all of the people who don't like a pointing lab say. I will bet you can't find a true scientist that will tell you it isn't genetic. Plus it is a silly argument. How many times have you said that if you breed a pointer with a lab or any mutt, you have no idea if the pups will point or not.

Ezzy

[Neil]

I agree, I have contributed to the silliness.

Re-reading my posts, I can't figure out what I am saying, I am that confused.

I just don't know, and perhaps never will.

[Sharon]

LOl I didn't get the discussion in the first place. If it isn't in his genes to point , where does the inclination come from? I thought we were breeding dogs that had the pointing need in their genes.? I don't point; it isn't genetic.

[shags]

If there isn't genetics you can't breed for it.

Ezzy

True, but you can think you are. If all mammal predators instinctively point, how would you know?

So the question might be better stated is the pointing gene universal in all canines?

If not properly trained many spaniels will hang up on the flush, a point if you would, and is a major flaw. They keep trying to breed it out.

At best, with the information we have now, a scientist would admit that a special gene unique to pointing dogs is a theory.

Who says all predatory mammals point?
They stalk, and there is a pause in there, but what they do is not like the hard point of our dogs. Have you never lost a dog on course only to find it a brace or two later, still locked up? If a yote, wolf, or cheetah did that, he'd starve to death!

[Chukar12]

Don't we only get two choices based on what we know regarding behavior?
Genetics or environmental conditioning?

[Neil]

Part of my confusions comes from witnessing so many dogs trained to point, first with checkcords and whoa posts, then barrels and tables, and e-collars, even flying pigeons, knocking birds, etc. all are designed to teach or develope the point. Other than a flash point, I have just never seen an untrained dog point.

Are you guys telling me you have dogs that naturally point, without training, from birth?

I need better breeding, I have been wasting a lot of needless time training.

I am really not arguing, I don't know enough to argue.

[slistoe]

Part of my confusions comes from witnessing so many dogs trained to point, first with checkcords and whoa posts, then barrels and tables, and e-collars, even flying pigeons, knocking birds, etc. all are designed to teach or develope the point. Other than a flash point, I have just never seen an untrained dog point.

Are you guys telling me you have dogs that naturally point, without training, from birth?

I need better breeding, I have been wasting a lot of needless time training.

I am really not arguing, I don't know enough to argue.

I'll ask you again. Why was Beans Blaze so influential in the Brittany breed?

[shags]

Yeah, my dogs, except for one, all pointed naturally without any lessons from a very young age. Not flash points either.

I travelled several hundred miles to choose an eight week old puppy. The breeder had 6 or 7 nice ones. We got my pick narrowed down to three and the breeder suggested we let them find an old partly tame pheasant that hung around the barnyard. All three pups pointed it, and I chose my pup, and carried him back to the truck. I wrote my check and headed for home. About a half hour later I got a call from the breeder asking if I had taken two puppies. He put one of the other two back in the puppy pen but couldn't find the other. I assured him I hadn't absconded with an extra dog, and he apologized for the question but was worried about what had happened to the puppy. We hung up but 15 minutes later he called again to let me know he had found the missing pup - it was where we had left it, still locked up on that old pheasant.

I don't know what became of that little dog, but I can tell you that the pup I chose had a very strong pointing instinct and never spent a minute on a barrel, and precious few minutes on a CC. It was like he crawled out of the whelping pen broke.
My trainer had him finished and polished in about a month; he told me he felt guilty taking my training check ( not horribly guilty, I guess, since he accepted it ) The trainer didn't take much credit for that dog - in his words, a monkey could have trained him.

That's instinct and good breeding

[Chukar12]

Yeah I am not intentionally arguing either I think the discussion is interesting. In most of my experience prior to say the last 6 years, is that most of the pointing dogs I have been around, for all intents and purposes "broke" themselves. A high percentage of the dogs I encounter in the desert of Nevada and in the valleys of California were naturally broke to the flush. Owners may holler and cuss, whip, pepper or any number of other atrocities at a dog that breaks before the flush or at least shot range. None of their training was formal or consistent, they all began point naturally and the amount of time they held their point seems way more influenced by their own maturity than any consistent training program. Many I know of knocked and chased until they simply stopped...often by my observation because they learned that the "hunt" had a more pleasing end, i.e. a shot bird if they stood. This of course lends to my own instinct not to shoot unpointed birds.

These are not dogs that had releasers, pigeons, or throw down birds...no whoa posts, barrels, place boards, clicks, treats, nada...nada...nada. They learned to hunt by hunting, raised by men whose only rel purpose for a dog was killing birds. It is not the same culture I have encountered in the field trial world, or the hunters in the south. It is less formal, less advanced in terms of training technique and outcome. Much of it simply blissful ignorance and in no way do i say that negatively. Training and behavioral shaping is by no means a waste of time, however, genetics alone will satisfy the needs of many hunters and pointing i believe is a piece of that.

Neil, you have more experience than I and I ask this truly wanting your answer and not knowing what it will be. If you took three litters of 6 pups each at 8 weeks old and put them down in a field of a dozen bob whites, they all have scent and sight encounters. The litters are a Brittany litter, a GSP litter and a Pointer litter which bunch do you suspect would point the most consistently without human interference?

[Neil]

I have not had the same experiences with hunters and their versions of in the field training. Begining in 1960, I watched them hook-up 50' ropes, snow tire chains, or log chains, run them down and beat with a stick or belt, and the one we don't talk about, shot them with birdshot until they pointed or died. Today, I watch them shock a dog at the highest levels with an e-collar until they quit chasing. I have always seen some human involvement. Even if just shooting birds until the dog figures out it is good to stand there until the hunter gets closer, there is some level of direction.

As to your question, you flattery me, true, I have been training dogs for a long time, but with limited success. Some would say a year's experience 53 times. I don't think any of them will point for more than a few seconds, but the pointer the longest, followed by the GSP, then the Brittany.

[ezzy333]

Part of my confusions comes from witnessing so many dogs trained to point, first with checkcords and whoa posts, then barrels and tables, and e-collars, even flying pigeons, knocking birds, etc. all are designed to teach or develope the point. Other than a flash point, I have just never seen an untrained dog point.

Are you guys telling me you have dogs that naturally point, without training, from birth?

I need better breeding, I have been wasting a lot of needless time training.

I am really not arguing, I don't know enough to argue.

Yes yes yes yes and so have you.

Yes

[ezzy333]

I am really not arguing, I don't know enough to argue.

Sorry about your sudden loss. You certainly hid it well.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

Part of my confusions comes from witnessing so many dogs trained to point, first with checkcords and whoa posts, then barrels and tables, and e-collars, even flying pigeons, knocking birds, etc. all are designed to teach or develope the point. Other than a flash point, I have just never seen an untrained dog point.

Are you guys telling me you have dogs that naturally point, without training, from birth?

I need better breeding, I have been wasting a lot of needless time training.

I am really not arguing, I don't know enough to argue.

Are you serious, you have never seen an untrained dog point?? I have never had a pointer or shorthair that did not point with no training because it is genetic. I have seen 8 wk. old pointer puppies not only point but do it with style.

Charlie

[polmaise]

So why don't some retrievers naturally retrieve?.and some spaniels naturally stop to flush?........
Hey?...on that 'point', ...If the guy's on pointers say that the game teaches the dog?..by way of the bird flying away',that the dog learns to point?......why does the other dog's not learn this?????????

[birddogger]

So why don't some retrievers naturally retrieve?.and some spaniels naturally stop to flush?........
Hey?...on that 'point', ...If the guy's on pointers say that the game teaches the dog?..by way of the bird flying away',that the dog learns to point?......why does the other dog's not learn this?????????

Pointing and being steady/polished are two different things.

Charlie

[polmaise]

So why don't some retrievers naturally retrieve?.and some spaniels naturally stop to flush?........
Hey?...on that 'point', ...If the guy's on pointers say that the game teaches the dog?..by way of the bird flying away',that the dog learns to point?......why does the other dog's not learn this?????????

Pointing and being steady/polished are two different things.

Charlie

Spoilsport!

[Finelinegundogs]

Yes a cutting horse with cut a cow without a rider or saddle. It is genetic w/o a doubt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cReoBXA-Jm4

can you identify a similar trait in other animals selectively bred for it

Dogs that instinctively 'tree' game
Dogs that instinctively go to ground
hounds that instinctively trail by ground scent
cutting horses

I came up with these in thirty seconds, I know there are many other examples.

I have never seen prey go up a tree and the dog not look to get it, same withe the game going to ground. If there is no air/body scent they must follow ground scent or ignore. Perhaps what we call a cold nose is genetic.

I simply do not know about cutting horses, I have always thought it was a combination of physicality and training. If not trained, do they pen cattle when not under saddle?

None of those seem like standing watching/scenting prey while waiting for a human to come by and kill it for them

[ezzy333]

If looks as well as other characteristics were not genetic there would be one breed of every specie of every animal and they would not breed true..

Ezzy

[fuzznut]

The young dog I have now pointed strong and long at 8 wks......it was one of the reasons I chose him over his brother. I could walk in front of him and flush a quail!
He stayed a strong pointer and is in the process of being broke out now. Has more chase in him now after being trialed... and we will take it slow and easy to get him totally broke.

Now, when I started with the breed, there wasn't as much point in the breed, or my stuff at all! They all needed to be worked to point, and to stay there. Just kept breeding to natural strong pointing dogs, and retrieving dogs, and swimming dogs etc., etc.