PennHip Question

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nitrex
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PennHip Question

Post by nitrex » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:18 pm

I'm looking at a GSP that is about 5 years old. The seller had a PennHip done several years ago and one hip has a DI=.65 and the other hip has a DI=.43. Am I correct in assuming these numbers are not very good? The dog seems ok at this point. I haven't seen too many Penn Hip reports. Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:25 pm

Not good. I think about .35 or less is comparable to OFA good. A competent vet could x-ray and have a pretty good idea how they are. .......Cj

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:28 am

Agreed...not very good. You could contact PennHp and find out what the median is for the breed and if you give them the measurements, they may tell you what percentile the dog falls within among the dogs evaluated.

Keep in mind, there is no correlation between OFA ratings and PennHip measurements. Both methods evaluate different aspects of the hip joint. I know of dogs with high PennHip measurements and Good or Excellent OFA ratings...

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:11 am

Actually there is a correlation. You can have OFA grading done with the legs extended radiograph that PennHip uses at the same time as doing Pennhip. The biggest difference is Pennhip uses two positions.
It may be possible, but I have not seen a high Pennhip score on a OFA excellent dog.
At the dog in questions age legs extended radiographs would show arthritis if he has it. Any body who has seen enough X-rays could evaluate them. Cost about $70 at my vet. You would know pretty much for sure. Some dogs are very good at hiding pain............................Cj

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by nitrex » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:09 pm

Looks like a trip to the vet for x-rays. Thanks for the help!

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Hattrick » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:03 pm

The median for GSP is .33

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by ACooper » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:20 pm

cjhills wrote:Actually there is a correlation. You can have OFA grading done with the legs extended radiograph that PennHip uses at the same time as doing Pennhip. The biggest difference is Pennhip uses two positions.
It may be possible, but I have not seen a high Pennhip score on a OFA excellent dog.
At the dog in questions age legs extended radiographs would show arthritis if he has it. Any body who has seen enough X-rays could evaluate them. Cost about $70 at my vet. You would know pretty much for sure. Some dogs are very good at hiding pain............................Cj

"A new scientific paper has just been published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association entitled "Evaluation of the relationship between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' hip joint scores and PennHIP distraction index values in dogs" (pg 532-541). This study shows that dogs judged as "normal" by the OFA can have clinically important passive hip joint laxity as determined by the PennHIP method. The results suggest that OFA scoring can underestimate susceptibility to osteoarthritis in dogs, which may impede progress in reducing or eliminating hip dysplasia through breeding."

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:26 am

.65 is not good.
I have a french brit that was scored as such in both hips, she has hip displaysia. You can see it affect her more now that she is 7 .

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:38 am

Ruffshooter wrote:.65 is not good.
I have a french brit that was scored as such in both hips, she has hip displaysia. You can see it affect her more now that she is 7 .
I know of breeders out there that would take that and breed to a dog with lower numbers and dangle the papers in front of people like it would be an acceptable breeding :evil:

Problem is we are only Human Neither OFA or PENN Hip is perfect but I would much rather have OFA which has a Pass or Fail system versus one where they can take a dog that wouldn't pass OFA and get a PENN hip number and breed it to another dog making the average person feel all fuzzy and good inside because a breeder flashed a paper making a dysplastic dog look better then it really is

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:20 pm

kninebirddog wrote:I know of breeders out there that would take that and breed to a dog with lower numbers and dangle the papers in front of people like it would be an acceptable breeding Problem is we are only Human Neither OFA or PENN Hip is perfect but I would much rather have OFA which has a Pass or Fail system versus one where they can take a dog that wouldn't pass OFA and get a PENN hip number and breed it to another dog making the average person feel all fuzzy and good inside because a breeder flashed a paper making a dysplastic dog look better then it really is
+1 I also don't the fact there is not a Penn Hip database for breeders to work with.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:39 pm

It would be interesting to know often excellent or good OFA dogs develop HD later in life. None of mine have.
I had a male dog with a fair OFA. WE did a PENN HIP .30 l and .28 R and a good OFA.
I am quite certain that OFA will improve canine hips, If used properly. We generally don't breed OFA fair dogs. Though it is not necessarily a bad thing. A fair dog with excellent litter mates may be a better bet than a excellent with dysplastic litter mates
I have people tell me Dr. X will get you a excellent every time. I don't know if it is true but it I seems to be kind of defeating the purpose

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:49 pm

cjhills wrote:It would be interesting to know often excellent or good OFA dogs develop HD later in life. None of mine have.
I had a male dog with a fair OFA. WE did a PENN HIP .30 l and .28 R and a good OFA.
I am quite certain that OFA will improve canine hips, If used properly. We generally don't breed OFA fair dogs. Though it is not necessarily a bad thing. A fair dog with excellent litter mates may be a better bet than a excellent with dysplastic litter mates
I have people tell me Dr. X will get you a excellent every time. I don't know if it is true but it I seems to be kind of defeating the purpose
I have never heard that..... :roll: I have looked at many Hip X rays from my animals to any other that I could compare with and I can flat out say bad hips are just that, bad hips no amount of manipulation was going to change the end results...Now a poorly taken x ray those will be sent be to be redone, I have seen that happen ....The X rays are also viewed by 3 vets and the vets vary so there is a big panel of those different eyes always looking and PS if any one has a question on their OFA results You can call OFA and ask them they are happy to go over them with you.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:00 pm

THe Vet can give an opinion but they cant give a rating, OfA or PENN gives the rating. I have had Vets tell me that a certain dogs hips were excellent but OFA certified them as "Good". PENNHIP was worse in my experience.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:55 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:THe Vet can give an opinion but they cant give a rating, OfA or PENN gives the rating. I have had Vets tell me that a certain dogs hips were excellent but OFA certified them as "Good". PENNHIP was worse in my experience.
Worse how? Dogs hips were worse than what OFA rated or worse as in less accurate?

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by dan v » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:43 pm

cjhills wrote: A fair dog with excellent litter mates may be a better bet than a excellent with dysplastic litter mates
You're a smart man Jerry.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:28 pm

Dan:
I want some of what you are drinking or smoking, but thanks.
I do think OFA gives me the best chance and learning how to read the x-rays is not rocket science Cj

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:35 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
cjhills wrote:It would be interesting to know often excellent or good OFA dogs develop HD later in life. None of mine have.
I had a male dog with a fair OFA. WE did a PENN HIP .30 l and .28 R and a good OFA.
I am quite certain that OFA will improve canine hips, If used properly. We generally don't breed OFA fair dogs. Though it is not necessarily a bad thing. A fair dog with excellent litter mates may be a better bet than a excellent with dysplastic litter mates
I have people tell me Dr. X will get you a excellent every time. I don't know if it is true but it I seems to be kind of defeating the purpose
I have never heard that..... :roll: I have looked at many Hip X rays from my animals to any other that I could compare with and I can flat out say bad hips are just that, bad hips no amount of manipulation was going to change the end results...Now a poorly taken x ray those will be sent be to be redone, I have seen that happen ....The X rays are also viewed by 3 vets and the vets vary so there is a big panel of those different eyes always looking and PS if any one has a question on their OFA results You can call OFA and ask them they are happy to go over them with you.
I too have seen many x-rays and my point was that I have x-rays to see how the hips are not to hope I get a good or excellent and I am a firm believer in OFA. No doubt some things could be better but it is the best we have it is affordable and mostly I think it works.
Sorry for the hijack............................................Cj

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Ruffshooter » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:35 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Ruffshooter wrote:.65 is not good.
I have a french brit that was scored as such in both hips, she has hip displaysia. You can see it affect her more now that she is 7 .
I know of breeders out there that would take that and breed to a dog with lower numbers and dangle the papers in front of people like it would be an acceptable breeding :evil:

Problem is we are only Human Neither OFA or PENN Hip is perfect but I would much rather have OFA which has a Pass or Fail system versus one where they can take a dog that wouldn't pass OFA and get a PENN hip number and breed it to another dog making the average person feel all fuzzy and good inside because a breeder flashed a paper making a dysplastic dog look better then it really is
IMO Wrong way to look at it.
There is so much room from fair good excellent etc. you do not get accurate readings.
Penn Hip is accurate and scientific as opposed to opinion.
Education of the buyer is what works.

By the way you can use those numbers to breed the numbers lower in the whole group. It has been done many times to reduce the rate of disyplasia in the over all of a breed that had horendous hips.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Ms. Cage » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:09 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:By the way you can use those numbers to breed the numbers lower in the whole group. It has been done many times to reduce the rate of disyplasia in the over all of a breed that had horendous hips.
The only way for this statement to be valid is for entire litters to be x rayed time and time again. To do a few dogs from the litters proves nothing in my opinion. As a breeder we look to improve on entire litters not just a few individuals.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by Ms. Cage » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:26 pm

[quote="cjhills"]It would be interesting to know often excellent or good OFA dogs develop HD later in life. None of mine have. I had a male dog with a fair OFA. WE did a PENN HIP .30 l and .28 R and a good OFA. I am quite certain that OFA will improve canine hips, If used properly. We generally don't breed OFA fair dogs. Though it is not necessarily a bad thing. A fair dog with excellent litter mates may be a better bet than a excellent with dysplastic litter mates I have people tell me Dr. X will get you a excellent every time. I don't know if it is true but it I seems to be kind of defeating the purpose

Jerry, I think it called a floroscope xray . The vet can watch the hips through xray as he moves the hips around and get the position they want. I'm sure I know who your talking about .

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by cjhills » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:20 am

You are missing my point. I have had people tell me to take my dog to this vet or that vet and they will get an excellent rating. Not sure why, maybe by knowing how to manipulate the hips.
My point is that makes no sense we don't x-ray to get a rating we x-ray to see how the hips look..................................Cj

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by wems2371 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:11 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
Ruffshooter wrote:By the way you can use those numbers to breed the numbers lower in the whole group. It has been done many times to reduce the rate of disyplasia in the over all of a breed that had horendous hips.
The only way for this statement to be valid is for entire litters to be x rayed time and time again. To do a few dogs from the litters proves nothing in my opinion. As a breeder we look to improve on entire litters not just a few individuals.
In trying to do pre-breeding research, this makes it hard. One or two pups being OFA'd out of a litter doesn't tell the entire story.

There is also the factor, that reporting of abnormal hips with OFA is not mandatory as far as I know. I believe you have to initial the form, if you're okay with abnormal results becoming public. And correct me if I'm wrong, as my math skills take a vacation sometimes....but the GSP is ranked 148th for Hip Dysplasia out of 168 ratings, with the numbers representing lowest/worse to higher/best. There are 3 more columns that separate dogs born from 2006-2010, but I'm using the numbers from the "All Data" columns. The total number of GSP hip evals is 15,575, with 25.9% excellent and 4.2% dysplastic. If I'm working my math right, 4.2% of 15,575 is 654 dyplastic dogs. If you use the "Advanced Search" for the GSP breed, there are 32 Milds, 8 Moderates, 2 Severes, and 2 Borderlines shown...totalling 42 records I can view. So my research seems to be limited with OFA as well, as I can't really look up the records that matter the most. Tell me if I got that wrong or I'm missing something.

Edited to add:
This is what is on the OFA's application, regarding disclosure of abnormal findings:
"I hereby certify that the image submitted is of the animal described on this application and that neither the pelvic nor the elbow conformation have been surgically altered. I understand that the image submitted will be retained by the OFA. I understand that the image is submitted for a consensus evaluation based on the independent, professional judgment of consulting board-certified veterinary radiologists, and I hereby release the OFA from any and all liability resulting from the consensus evaluation. I understand the OFA will release normal hip and/or elbow results for dogs over 24 months to the public, and by submitting this application I agree the OFA may do so. Abnormal hip and/or elbow results will not be released to the public unless the initials of a registered owner appear in the authorization box below. Normal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Excellent, Good, or Fair. Abnormal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Mild, Moderate, or Severe. For the purpose of determining whether or not the results will be released to the public, consensus hip evaluations of Borderline are considered abnormal. Normal elbow results are defined as a consensus evaluation of Normal. All other elbow consensus evaluations are considered abnormal."

Edited again: :D
I joined this Facebook group OFA Hip and Elbow results . It's still a pretty small group, but folks put up xrays for others to give opinions on, as well as show what the dog OFA rated. Just something to check out.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:26 am

Image

There is NOTHING a vet is going to do to get this to pass..Sockets are to shallow and there is thinning on the socket joints
This dog came back as Mild.

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Re: PennHip Question

Post by dvmhunter » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:40 am

I am a small animal DVM that has been practicing for 30 yrs. I was Penn Hip certified 18 yrs ago. The basic premise behind the Penn Hip technique was to hopefully develop a more accurate technique that will help evaluate a dog's hip conformation. The drive behind this is that in evaluating the incidence of hip dysplasia in all breeds of dog's over the years there has not been a significant reduction despite the screening technique of OFA. OFA is an excellent screening test that can tell "bad" hips from "good" hips but it's the huge population in between that requires more accurate evaluation for breeding purposes. If memory serves me correctly Dr. Gail Smith from the Univ. of Pennsylvania around 1982 took on this endeavor and w/ the help of board certified veterinary orthopedists, radiologists as well as some input form the human medical field the Penn Hip technique was developed. In the beginning they performed a "little experiment" where they took OFA radiographs of a # of different dogs and submitted them to OFA for evaluation. They then re-submitted the exact same Xrays some time later w/ the names changed and found that approximately 50% of the OFA results were different than the original reading- bottom line- OFA is subjective. There are no special credentials that a practitioner needs to take OFA radiographs. Penn Hip radiographs on the other hand require a fairly rigorous training class and then requires the DVM to submit Penn Hips on 5 different dogs for critique prior to certification. The main advantages of the Penn Hip are that #1- numbers don't lie i.e. the distraction index, no subjective evaluation, # 2 you can't fudge the technique to make hips "look better" # 3 you have to submit ALL xrays meaning even if the hip extended view confirms hip dysplasia you still submit Xrays so that Penn Hip has a much broader representative population data base to compare. Typically w/ OFA radiographs if the hips have significant dysplasia w/ osteoarthritis the DVM will show the owner the xrays and not even submit them, hence OFA has a more skewed population data base. By no means is Penn Hip perfect. It's interesting from a DVM's point of view when an owner has had OFA radiographs done and receives a good rating then has Penn Hips done and the distraction index is a fairly large # meaning the dog has loose hips & due to a # of reason, whether it be pride or $, will take the OFA reading because it's "better". I still perform both techniques OFA and Penn Hip.I always recommend Penn Hip as a more accurate technique however, hey economics being what it is the OFA technique is substantially less expensive.

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