Exercise Induced Seizures?

[brooktrout1978]

Hi All,
I need a little help form some of you more experienced bird dog owners. I have a 1 ½ year old Llewellin Setter. She has been an absolutely incredible dog thus far and I look forward to a long career chasing grouse. She seems to have some sort of exercise induced seizures whenever we run? Has anyone heard of this before? She has never had a seizure when not running hard in the woods. When she was a puppy I wasn’t sure exactly what was going on because the grouse woods are thick and it’s hard to reign in the passion of a setter. I was figuring she was chasing a critter and running off for 30 seconds or so, but as her range has gotten better and I’m more attentive to it, I think she is having a seizure every single time we hunt or train running in the woods. Regularity of exercise doesn't seem to make any difference, neither does pre exercise conditioning or the weather outside. If she is walked on a leash it doesn’t happen, only when she is run in the woods off leash. It's almost always 5-10 minutes into our walk. She has no incontinents during her little sessions and they really don’t seem to bother her that much about one minute after they happen. When she's running she drops to the ground, seizures for 30 seconds to a minute, pants hard with a blank stare on her face, and then kind of just snaps out of it. In about 15 seconds after the seizure ends she sits up looks at you and takes off hunting like nothing ever happened. Her back end is a little slow for about 20 seconds and she’s chasing pats within a minute. It really freaked me out the first time, but now it is just an every hunt thing that lasts 2-3 minutes and doesn’t seem to bother her.

I’ve had many session to the vet to talk about this. His first thought was hunting dog hyperglycemia, so we changed her diet to hi-protein stuff but after running blood work immediately afterwords and looking at a video of the episode he ruled that out. I'll attach a link below to the video of her seizure on you tube. She has been on antisiezure medicine for a few months now and it is making absolutely no difference.

I've asked all around, and only once someone mentioned that they have heard of this in a Labrador Retriever. That labrador was never brought to the vet, so I don't know how that one went. If that is just what she does than I'm fine with it, but I would hate to ignore something like this if there is something I can do about it.

What does everyone think?

Here is the link to the video of the seizures

http://youtu.be/an5zeGD7zvc

Thanks,

Cam
U.P. of Michigan

[dog dr]

sure looks and sounds like epilepsy to me, which is something we still dont fully understand even in humans. so after she has a seizure she hunts the rest of the trip day with no issues?? and what medication is she on?

[Cajun Casey]

Seizures are common in English setters, and particularly in some lines. I agree this is a seizure, not grand mal, but definitely not glycemic in origin.

[brooktrout1978]

Yep, in all my reading two notable things stand out different in my situation...

1) It is absolutely only triggered by one thing. Most others that I read online about are after the hunt or during everyday life. Not so here.
2) No odd behavior afterwords at all. She hunts just fine within minutes of a seizure, and for the rest of the day.

Epilepsy is where we (vet and I) are currently at. She is on zonisamide. I hate to give her constant meds if they are not making any difference?

Cam

[Del Lolo]

If it actually is epilepsy, there is a fairly significant relationship to low (or poorly utilized) DHA (which is one of the omega-3 fatty acids).
Most 'fish oil' is about 2 parts EPA to 1 part DHA.
Tuna Oil is 1 part EPA to 5 parts DHA.

.

[Del Lolo]

Here is a copy of an article concerning DHA and epilepsy from Emory University :

Media Contact: Janet Christenbury 29 April 2004
jmchris@emory.edu
(404) 727-8599 [ Print | Email ]

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Patients with Uncontrolled Epilepsy Have Low Levels of Fatty Acids
Omega-3 fatty acids are crucial to the proper development and function of cell membranes in the brain. But one particular fatty acid, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), is found at abnormally low levels in patients with uncontrolled epilepsy, according to Emory researchers. The study was based on 41 persons with refractory complex partial seizures (a common type of seizure that develops in one brain region and is resistant to antiepileptic medication) when compared to a control group of 57 healthy persons. The results of the study was presented at the American Academy of Neurology in San Francisco on April 28.
DHA is essential for the development of the nervous system and visual abilities in babies and for the proper functioning of the brain in adults. The human body cannot produce sufficient amounts of DHA for the needs of the eye and brain. Therefore, DHA must be consumed though foods, such as cold water fatty fish, or in supplemental form.

"We looked at prior studies of animal models of rats with epilepsy and low levels of DHA," says Thomas R. Henry, MD, associate professor of neurology, Emory University School of Medicine and director of the Emory Epilepsy Center. "By giving these rats more DHA, it made it more difficult for them to have seizures. We are now exploring a similar connection of low DHA levels in humans who have epilepsy."

Forty-one people with refractory complex partial seizures enrolled in this study, which was funded by the Emory University Research Committee. They all had blood drawn and analyzed for levels of DHA. Fifty-seven healthy volunteers, which served as the control group, also had their blood drawn and analyzed. The range in age and gender was similar in both groups.

After complete analyses, researchers found significantly lower levels of DHA in the red blood cell membranes of the group with uncontrolled epilepsy (2.74 %) when compared to DHA levels in the healthy group (3.46%). This implies the brain also has low membrane levels of DHA in neuronal membranes. (A prior study showed that low DHA levels in red blood cell membranes correlates with low membrane levels of DHA in cerebral neurons.)

"By determining a deficiency in the red blood cell membranes in these patients, we infer that brain cell membranes are also depleted of this normal fatty acid," says Dr. Henry. "This may help us link low DHA to seizures which cannot be managed by antiepileptic medications. Reasons for the reduced membrane levels are unclear at this time. Future studies are needed to determine if DHA supplementation can help control seizures in this patient population."

[Del Lolo]

And another

Effects of essential fatty acid supplementation in dogs with idiopathic epilepsy: a clinical trial.
Helen Matthews, Nicolas Granger, James Wood, Barbara Skelly
Department of Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 0ES, UK.
The Veterinary Journal (Impact Factor: 2.24). 06/2011; 191(3):396-8. DOI:10.1016/j.tvjl.2011.04.018
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT The effects of essential fatty acid supplementation (EFA) on the control of idiopathic epilepsy in dogs were investigated in a blinded, placebo-controlled trial. Fifteen dogs were treated with triple purified Ω-3 oil containing 400 mg eicosapentaenoic acid, 250 mg docosahexaenoic acid and 22 mg vitamin E per 1.5 mL at a dose of 1.5 mL/10 kg once daily for 12 weeks, followed by a 12 week placebo period of supplementation with olive oil. Owners recorded seizure frequency and severity and any adverse events. EFA supplementation did not reduce seizure frequency or severity in dogs with idiopathic epilepsy.
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Available from: Ameer Taha
Article: A minimum of 3 months of dietary fish oil supplementation is required to raise amygdaloid afterdischarge seizure thresholds in rats - implications for treating complex partial seizures.
Ameer Y Taha, Marc-Olivier Trepanier, Flaviu A Ciobanu, Nadeen M Taha, Muaz Ahmed, Qiudi Zeng, Waiyin I Cheuk, Bryan Ip, Elvis Filo, Brian W Scott, W M Burnham, Richard P Bazinet
[show abstract] [hide abstract]
ABSTRACT: Complex partial seizures, which typically originate in limbic structures such as the amygdala, are often resistant to antiseizure medications. Our goal was to investigate the effects of chronic dietary supplementation with n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) derived from fish oil on seizure thresholds in the amygdala, as well as on blood and brain PUFA levels. The acute effects of injected n-3 PUFAs - eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) - were also tested in the maximal pentylenetetrazol (PTZ) seizure model. In amygdala-implanted subjects, fish oil supplementation significantly increased amygdaloid afterdischarge thresholds, as compared with controls at 3, 5, and 7months after the start of supplementation. Fish oil supplementation also increased serum EPA and DHA concentrations. DHA concentration in the pyriform-amygdala area increased in the fish-oil treated group by 17-34%, but this effect did not reach statistical significance (P=0.065). DHA significantly increased the latency to seizure onset in the PTZ seizure model, whereas EPA had no significant effect. These observations suggest that chronic dietary fish oil supplementation can raise focal amygdaloid seizure thresholds and that this effect is likely mediated by DHA rather than by EPA.
Epilepsy & Behavior 01/2013; 27(1):49-58. · 2.34 Impact Factor

[ezzy333]

Your first link is about people and not dogs and the way I read the second one, though about dogs, they don't know what is causing them or how to treat them. Am I missing something?

I hope those are not copy-righted material.

Ezzy

[Del Lolo]

Your first link is about people and not dogs and the way I read the second one, though about dogs, they don't know what is causing them or how to treat them. Am I missing something?

I hope those are not copy-righted material.

Ezzy

As far as is currently knowm the biochemistry is the same.
Second article; "Idiopathic" -- which is the case with 90% of cases of epilepsy.
If you look near the top of the first article you'll see the word "share".
Second article is from PubMed

[mountaindogs]

Thankfully I have never yet had a seizure dog but I myself have a neuromuscular disorder. Very interesting articles. Thank you for sharing.

[Jere]

I have a setter which has seizures which appear identical to the video except they always occur at night when he is sleeping. These seizures are well controlled by phenobarbital tablets orally - 1 grain dose 2 times a day. He's never had a seizure while on that dose but we tried lowering it to 1/2 grain morning, 1 grain evening and the seizures recurred. The dose was checked with bloodwork some time after initially starting the therapy - (according to standard protocol I believe) and the level was in the therapeutic range. I have noticed no adverse effects. The dog hunts hard with good endurance. He does not appear to be sedated.

Jere

[dog dr]

If what your using isn't helping, then I would try some phenobarb.

[brooktrout1978]

Thanks! All good reading. I’ll start giving fish oil pills and see if I notice any delayed timing in when the seizures begin on our hunts. I'll also talk to my vet about phenobarb.

Obviously seizures are a difficult issue to nail down. I guess what seems interesting to me is the timing and regularity of the seizures in my setter. Everything I read online has seizures happening at random times and really negatively affecting the dog for some time; not so on either account here. They are very consistent, very short lived, and compared to everything I see online, very unobtrusive. I guess I restate my original question; has anyone ever even heard of this type of pattern? There is such a stigma with “seizure dogs” for good reason, even stated by an earlier post on this thread, but my situation doesn’t seem to be anything like that. We’re talking about a total of 2 minutes per hunt… Probably the same amount of time I spend drinking my coffee after we park and before I start hunting.

Thanks again all…

Cam

[dog dr]

if you can live with the seizures, then maybe try the fish oil and forget the other drugs. phenobarb can cause some liver issues long term. and, I usually don't recommend starting a dog on phenobarb unless the seizures are once a month or more.

[brooktrout1978]

I can easily live with the seizures the way they are. Is there any long term effect from just ignoring them?

[Del Lolo]

I’ll start giving fish oil pills and see if I notice any delayed timing in when the seizures begin on our hunts.
Cam

NOT regular Fish Oil ------------------------------ TUNA oil. The only good I know of is made by Standard Process Laboratories.