What is happening here?

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jimbo&rooster
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What is happening here?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:45 am

I joined this forum several years ago, to kind of get a feel for a few GUNDOG related issues I was having. At the time there were several pro's who were willing to help folks out given the opportunity, even invite you to their place to give a days lesson. Most of those pro's have since left, or remain unseen or unheard in the background lurking, and only answering questions by PM lest they be ridiculed or argued with by some know it all.

I have had the pleasure of meeting and shaking hands with a number of members from here at FTs, as well as doing business with a few of them, and all of the folks from here I have met personally I am happy to call friends.

However, here in the last several months there has been an influx of folks who quite frankly have no clue..... In such a dedicated, and tradition driven sport, like bird dogs, and hunting in general, there are likely to be different views, and the banter whether it gets a little heated or is all in fun, is part of what makes this sport what it is. But, when folks who truely have no concept of the tradition, and passion that comes with what we do, they get a little butt hurt when some one calls them out. heck we have threads about teaching a dog to pee in a "bleep" swimming pool for petes sake.

While I have always viewed GDF as a train wreck that I just could not look away from, things are really getting to the point of silly.

Im just curiouse why such a change in the community. Has GDF gotten too big? Is it a victim of its own success?

While Im sure I will continue to lurk and watch this train come off the tracks, I must say I am a little disapointed with what I am beginning to see.

Jim

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by RichK » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:09 am

Jim,

It is the internet, sooner or later every forum gets it.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by fishvik » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:16 am

Jimbo, I think it is just a sign of the times. We have leadership that feels civility and cooperation is not the way to serve their constituents and get re-elected. We have a vehicle in electronic communication that lets us be somewhat anonymous and thus not have to look someone in the eye when we voice our opinions. I think we live in a compeditive society that puts winning or "being right" at all cost, and that has trickled over into bird dog games. I guess we just pick and choose what we want to read on the forum and blow off the rest.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by ACooper » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:29 am

I agree Jim, we use to have a ton of folks who have "been there and done that" post regularly. Mo still posts and Jonesy does time to time, what about Snips? How about Bruce S? (obviously not speaking of recent events) What about Hotpepper or Dave Q? How about Robbie Gulledge? What about DocFavor, he's here less and less? These are just a few that don't seem to post much or at all anymore. If they do it's usually a congratulation to someone or to post results of a trial.

This is just a guess but I would bet these folks do not have the time or want to argue with some idiot with their first dog... I have learned a ton from the folks mentioned above and from others I cannot think to name right now, I hate to see that go away, but there is far less usable info than their use to be.

I have been an advocate for a long time of an "Ask the pros" section, a section where a person can ask a question and only "approved" posters can respond. Like the folks mentioned above.

We do still see Evan G regularly, how long until he doesn't want to deal with it anymore?

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:41 am

Facebook, in particular, along with the rest of integrated social media, is what happened. Ease and speed of communication and superior personalization capabilities have made static forums a thing of the past. Sites like this cost money while Facebook is free and allows a lot more reach if someone works it correctly.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Garrison » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:36 am

Or they could be out hunting and training their dogs.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:51 am

Garrison wrote:Or they could be out hunting and training their dogs.
Nope, that ain't it. I've seen people post fishing and hunting trips and field work directly to FB as it happens. The groups are more user friendly because of blocking capabilities. You still have moderators, but don't have to deal with them personally.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:53 am

I think this is happening in todays society in general not just on the web.It's a new world!! Old ways are out & the new is in. :?

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by DGFavor » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:56 am

I liken internet forums to merry go rounds - you initially stroll up, watch awhile, see folks enjoying themselves going round and round, decide it looks like fun, jump on, go round and round for awhile yourself, have your thrills then realize you're just going round and round...so you get off, go look for another ride. :wink: :lol:

Image

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:03 am

Happens on every forum from time to time. My Canadian forum is going through the same thing right now - herbalist, pet only owners posting often. It sorts itself out.
I can understand a pros' annoyance at having some neophyte correct his opinion , but some seem to have a very thin skin and immediately leave our forum, saying " I don't need this."
I commend those pros who stay for the benefit of the sport and see their role also to be one of education. When I started out , I thought that when the Judge said, "Pick up your dog "- which I heard a lot- " it meant I had to carry the dog back to the car.
I am very thankful for the experts who stuck to educating me.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:28 am

Sharon wrote:.....I can understand a pros' annoyance at having some neophyte correct his opinion,
Can you understand a neophyte's annoyance when some name dropping know it all corrects their opinion and/or then discounts others that might offers suggestions or disagree..... :roll:

cr

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by polmaise » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:32 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sharon wrote:.....I can understand a pros' annoyance at having some neophyte correct his opinion,
Can you understand a neophyte's annoyance when some name dropping know it all corrects their opinion and/or then discounts others that might offers suggestions or disagree..... :roll:

cr
I received a message from a 'perceived well known and respected poster on here' a few months ago.
"I don't deal with people like you. Don't respond to me posts and I won't respond to yours. Thank you."

I just hung around to annoy them!...not anyone else :lol:

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by aulrich » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:16 pm

FB won't take over because at this point so much of it's content is not google searchable, folks will do like me, google how to train a dog and end up here. That is a substantial advantage VS FB.

Even digging stuff out of the archives FB has no answer to the 5 year old post of how to make a remote bird launcher.

Good mods and the careful application of the ban hammer helps keep the shenanigans down.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Sharon wrote:.....I can understand a pros' annoyance at having some neophyte correct his opinion,
Can you understand a neophyte's annoyance when some name dropping know it all corrects their opinion and/or then discounts others that might offers suggestions or disagree..... :roll:

cr
Yes I can understand that too. :)

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:05 pm

Boards change. This one now has several that are one dog wonders, amateurs that have pros train their dogs and don't realize what they're seeing, but spout what they think they've seen as gospel, and some that may be internet wonders and may have never trained a dog successfully. I help members with their dogs by phone and email but went quite a while without posting much on here. Then some members asked me why I wasn't posting much, so I came back. It's not worth it. You have people spouting ridiculous theory , people insulting members, and the "Bill Clinton" contingent questioning you on the meaning of "is". Glad it's finally hunting season.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:22 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Boards change. This one now has several that are one dog wonders, amateurs that have pros train their dogs and don't realize what they're seeing, but spout what they think they've seen as gospel, and some that may be internet wonders and may have never trained a dog successfully. I help members with their dogs by phone and email but went quite a while without posting much on here. Then some members asked me why I wasn't posting much, so I came back. It's not worth it. You have people spouting ridiculous theory , people insulting members, and the "Bill Clinton" contingent questioning you on the meaning of "is". Glad it's finally hunting season.
Perhaps you should go. Hunting.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by cjhills » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:39 pm

Personally I think its all interesting and there is some good in everybody's opinion. You can always ignore........................... Cj

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Maurice » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:13 pm

I still check this forum and post some. This forum is civil compared to some, especially the older forums. The old Uplandbirddog site was rough lol. This time of year most trainers are busy and the weather is good for training so they might be working. GDF seems to be the highest traffic site on the www now.

Mo

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Munster » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:13 pm

I think what happens is, in the beginning, those pros are happy to help a newbie that wants answers. But then said newbie either questions the pros methods or miss uses the method and then drops the pros name. See, if a pro helps you and the method they teach doesnt work for your dog/or you didnt interpret it correctly, for some reason it becomes the pros fault not the newbies or the dogs.

So, then the pros go into hiding because it is no longer worth the time or effort to deal with the internet couch trainer and their insight and knowledge are lost forever. I know one on here that I look up to a ton, who has seemed to turned really really sour in the last couple of years.Like a totally different person. To me it is sad as I think they are good people that just got rode into the ground.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:31 pm

Munster wrote:I think what happens is, in the beginning, those pros are happy to help a newbie that wants answers. But then said newbie either questions the pros methods or miss uses the method and then drops the pros name. See, if a pro helps you and the method they teach doesnt work for your dog/or you didnt interpret it correctly, for some reason it becomes the pros fault not the newbies or the dogs.

So, then the pros go into hiding because it is no longer worth the time or effort to deal with the internet couch trainer and their insight and knowledge are lost forever. I know one on here that I look up to a ton, who has seemed to turned really really sour in the last couple of years.Like a totally different person. To me it is sad as I think they are good people that just got rode into the ground.
Maybe it's because people expect a lot for nothing. Dog trainers are trying to make a living, not teach the competition.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by ACooper » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:58 pm

How do we get the "pros" more involved in posting?

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: Perhaps you should go. Hunting.
I rest my case.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Perhaps you should go. Hunting.
I rest my case.
One can only hope.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:38 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Boards change. This one now has several that are one dog wonders, amateurs that have pros train their dogs and don't realize what they're seeing, but spout what they think they've seen as gospel, and some that may be internet wonders and may have never trained a dog successfully. I help members with their dogs by phone and email but went quite a while without posting much on here. Then some members asked me why I wasn't posting much, so I came back. It's not worth it. You have people spouting ridiculous theory , people insulting members, and the "Bill Clinton" contingent questioning you on the meaning of "is". Glad it's finally hunting season.
Perhaps you should go. Hunting.
.........................
Is that suppose to be funny? And we wonder why we lose our good people.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:49 pm

Sharon wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Boards change. This one now has several that are one dog wonders, amateurs that have pros train their dogs and don't realize what they're seeing, but spout what they think they've seen as gospel, and some that may be internet wonders and may have never trained a dog successfully. I help members with their dogs by phone and email but went quite a while without posting much on here. Then some members asked me why I wasn't posting much, so I came back. It's not worth it. You have people spouting ridiculous theory , people insulting members, and the "Bill Clinton" contingent questioning you on the meaning of "is". Glad it's finally hunting season.
Perhaps you should go. Hunting.
.........................
Is that suppose to be funny? And we wonder why we lose our good people.
No, it's not. There are some top notch amateurs on here that can't get a word in edgewise because a few people want to promote such and such program or agenda.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:53 pm

I can't see that. I'm as Amateur as they come and I feel I can post freely. 8 out of 10 times I'm not told I'm an idiot. :) I'm sorry you feel that way. I always learn something from your posts in the Health section.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:13 pm

aulrich wrote: Good mods and the careful application of the ban hammer helps keep the shenanigans down.
The "shenanigans" also help weed out the idiots.

Personally, I think this place could stand to be a good bit rougher. In a decade of experience on many forums, that keeps the casual people who aren't truly involved in whatever the subject is from becoming a nuisance, and gives the experienced people more freedom. Then you have the guys like me who know some, and have some to learn that will still stick around and learn/teach as appropriate.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:14 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Munster wrote:I think what happens is, in the beginning, those pros are happy to help a newbie that wants answers. But then said newbie either questions the pros methods or miss uses the method and then drops the pros name. See, if a pro helps you and the method they teach doesnt work for your dog/or you didnt interpret it correctly, for some reason it becomes the pros fault not the newbies or the dogs.

So, then the pros go into hiding because it is no longer worth the time or effort to deal with the internet couch trainer and their insight and knowledge are lost forever. I know one on here that I look up to a ton, who has seemed to turned really really sour in the last couple of years.Like a totally different person. To me it is sad as I think they are good people that just got rode into the ground.
Maybe it's because people expect a lot for nothing. Dog trainers are trying to make a living, not teach the competition.
It's 2013, generation Y is here, they want it all, they want it now, and they want to download it for free.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by aulrich » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:30 pm

There is a difference between enthusiastic debate, trolling, just being a jerk and out of bound personal attacks.

For the most part, I have not seen too many threads get too out of control, a local board I frequent got acidic during the last election and some folks got the ban hammer, but then the folks who got banned were frequent combatants .

You can't weed out idiots with more idiots

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Munster » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:32 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Munster wrote:I think what happens is, in the beginning, those pros are happy to help a newbie that wants answers. But then said newbie either questions the pros methods or miss uses the method and then drops the pros name. See, if a pro helps you and the method they teach doesnt work for your dog/or you didnt interpret it correctly, for some reason it becomes the pros fault not the newbies or the dogs.

So, then the pros go into hiding because it is no longer worth the time or effort to deal with the internet couch trainer and their insight and knowledge are lost forever. I know one on here that I look up to a ton, who has seemed to turned really really sour in the last couple of years.Like a totally different person. To me it is sad as I think they are good people that just got rode into the ground.
Maybe it's because people expect a lot for nothing. Dog trainers are trying to make a living, not teach the competition.
It's 2013, generation Y is here, they want it all, they want it now, and they want to download it for free.

Apparently my post is being misunderstood................and here inlays the problem with forums. :roll:

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:38 pm

Your post was excellent.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by birddogger » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:42 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Perhaps you should go. Hunting.
I rest my case.
Go hunting gh and I will too but don't leave us, you are an asset to this forum!! :D

Charlie

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by brianb » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:55 am

I think this forum really needs a "beginner training" board. A place where new gundog owners can ask questions and get feedback from experienced trainers who like to help out including obedience type stuff. Over time you could start pinning the repeat questions to the top. It would also remove posts from the regular training board which would be reserved for those with more advanced questions.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by larue » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:10 am

the biggest issue in trying to give advice is that without being there and watching the dog,it becomes very difficult to understand what is actually going on.
The good trainers adjust there training to how each dog is responding,and that ability to read a dog,and figure out which direction to go next is what makes a trainer good or bad.So giving advice is a lose lose situation for any pro.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by bonasa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:12 am

brianb wrote:I think this forum really needs a "beginner training" board. A place where new gundog owners can ask questions and get feedback from experienced trainers who like to help out including obedience type stuff. ".
I like that idea. The current "training" section is great for how-to information on force fetch, de-chasing and how to deal with relocating. Where as a new "Beginner training page" would be better fit for questions such as, "HELP! Dog caught bird!" , "Please help! Pup whining all night" and "8 month old pup quit responding in field". Although those are all informative questions , I believe most people with more than one dog's experience knows how to deal with them, thus removing those questions from the "Training" thread and freeing up the page for more technical troubleshooting.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by displaced_texan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:36 am

Munster wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Maybe it's because people expect a lot for nothing. Dog trainers are trying to make a living, not teach the competition.
It's 2013, generation Y is here, they want it all, they want it now, and they want to download it for free.

Apparently my post is being misunderstood................and here inlays the problem with forums. :roll:
I wasn't responding to you.

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What is happening here?

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:59 am

displaced_texan wrote:
Personally, I think this place could stand to be a good bit rougher. In a decade of experience on many forums, that keeps the casual people who aren't truly involved in whatever the subject is from becoming a nuisance, and gives the experienced people more freedom.
I agree, if there are no repercussions to posting total bulls... then the forum gets filled up with total bulls.... It's hard for a beginner to know what advice to trust.

10 years ago when I joined here I thought I knew a helluva lot more than what I realize I know now.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:41 am

ACooper wrote:
displaced_texan wrote:
Personally, I think this place could stand to be a good bit rougher. In a decade of experience on many forums, that keeps the casual people who aren't truly involved in whatever the subject is from becoming a nuisance, and gives the experienced people more freedom.
I agree, if there are no repercussions to posting total bulls... then the forum gets filled up with total bulls.... It's hard for a beginner to know what advice to trust.

10 years ago when I joined here I thought I knew a helluva lot more than what I realize I know now.
Total beginners need real face to face help, not the "shoot the dog because it whines" advice they get in the innerweb.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by displaced_texan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:05 am

ACooper wrote:
I agree, if there are no repercussions to posting total bulls... then the forum gets filled up with total bulls.... It's hard for a beginner to know what advice to trust.
Precisely.

And in my experience the less moderation there is, and the fewer restrictions (obviously personal attacks/threats/etc are off limits) there are the more things like that filter themselves out and take care of themselves.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Angus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:42 am

Forums constantly change. Nothing is static of any forum board, just the nature of things.

With that said, In My Opinion, I do not believe most "Pros" want to give anything other than generic general info over the net. Most "Pros" want to see a dog in action to correctly diagnose an issue, watch the dog run, or hunt. It's really hard to give precise info on correcting problems in a dog when taking a strangers word for it. I do not blame them one bit.

Myself, I have not been on many forums at all lately. Things in real life take more of my time. Though when I do have time to sit and read the forums, I do tend to avoid this one for some reason. Not sure why. I just find more enjoyment reading and participating on other boards more.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:13 am

brianb wrote:I think this forum really needs a "beginner training" board. A place where new gundog owners can ask questions and get feedback from experienced trainers who like to help out including obedience type stuff. Over time you could start pinning the repeat questions to the top. It would also remove posts from the regular training board which would be reserved for those with more advanced questions.

That is a great idea. :)

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:07 am

What it also needs is a "sticky" section that does not get removed. That way when the moderators see a great piece of training advice, they can move it to the sticky under a heading like "collar breaking" and the advice doesn't have to get posted again and again and again and again and again.

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by displaced_texan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:08 am

Angus wrote:Forums constantly change. Nothing is static of any forum board, just the nature of things.
I've been on one that hasn't noticeably changed in the past I years...

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by polmaise » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:44 am

I also think some should look at individual posts on merit ,rather than what they perceive or believe from who the poster is.
But that also happens in real life too!..some are 'Sheeple'. When this happens you get a 'Cleek' .

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Re: What is happening here?

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:35 pm

I would think that the old pro's see the same questions asked over and over and over again and they get to the point where they think "oh well someone will jump in as answer this question". I think when they are asked good, relevant questions, they will jump in. I hope so anyway, I always welcome their input.

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