Puppy food question

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:09 am

I have a 16 week old GWP puppy. When I got her about 3 weeks ago the breeder was feeding her Red Flannel food which isn't available in my area. I switched her over to Diamond Naturals Large Breed Puppy food, mostly because we feed our older dog a Diamond Naturals food, it's locally available at the feed store and reasonably priced. The pup began having diarrhea and at about the same time, I saw this post:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=44323&p=408510&hil ... ia#p408243

I took the dog to the vet who tried worming her with no results. On a follow up visit I took a stool sample and the vet said there was lots of bacteria and prescribed an antibiotic medication. Around this same time, I switched the dog to boiled Chicken and Rice, along with a scoop of pumpkin and her poop started to solidify. So, now I wasn't sure if it was the food or something else so I started to switch her back to the Diamond Puppy food (slowly) and within two days she was back to the diarrhea. I went back to the Chicken/Rice/Pumpkin and she went back to solid.

The vet also gave me a pro-biotic but I couldn't see the sense in giving the pro-biotic along with the antibiotic. After I finished the course of the antibiotic I had her on the Chicken/Rice/Pumpkin and she was solid so I didn't bother giving the pro-biotic because she was finally solid.

So, I then bought a bag of Taste of the Wild Wetlands Canine Formula and began to introduce that. After two or three days she was back to diarrhea last night.

I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. Part of me thinks I should keep introducing the Taste of the Wild food, perhaps at a slower pace. Maybe I should find another brand of food. . . . We live in a pretty rural area so I would like to find something that is available locally. I still have the pro-biotic and could give that for the recommended 7-10 days.

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts, ideas, or experiences.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:53 am

My dogs have been on both TOTW and a Diamond Naturals formula (EA). Both foods seem to be very portion sensitive, causing loose stools and horrible gas if overfed by even a little bit. Try cutting your pup back each meal, and if she needs more food, give her an extra little meal. I found that by cutting back my dogs do better because they're absorbing more nutrients rather than dumping the bigger rations in the back yard

FWIW everyone here gets Extreme Athlete, ages range from 5 months to 12 1/2 years.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Shags is right. The way I understand it, as the undigested food sits in the intestines/colon bacteria form and that causes the diarrhea. I feed Diamond Naturals EA and my dogs do great on it, even with the high fat. But my dogs are 16 months and older. It's probably the best food I've ever used and I've used a lot of different ones. I buy 8-10 bags at a time because I know it works for them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:57 pm

shags wrote:My dogs have been on both TOTW and a Diamond Naturals formula (EA). Both foods seem to be very portion sensitive, causing loose stools and horrible gas if overfed by even a little bit. Try cutting your pup back each meal, and if she needs more food, give her an extra little meal. I found that by cutting back my dogs do better because they're absorbing more nutrients rather than dumping the bigger rations in the back yard FWIW everyone here gets Extreme Athlete, ages range from 5 months to 12 1/2 years.

The answer is just as you said. Most any problem with a feed can be solved by cutting back.

Ezzy

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:27 pm

If you can't find something local you can always order on-line. Shipping is fast, free, you get a better price and there is no sales tax.

I am not a big fan of complex foods like TOTW for puppies. Lots of ingredients, pretty rich and the wrong fiber for a fast digestive system. Better off with a high quality chicken or turkey and rice formula with beet pulp. Adding pumpkin is a good idea. I can't for the life of me understand why more foods don't use pumpkin.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:58 pm

Get the regular Chicken and Rice Naturals and feed 1/4 below the max recommended amount. LB is lamb and high energy dogs may noy digest it as well.

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:31 pm

Your dog could have Guardia. I don't know if that requires a specialized teat or not. My pup somehow got it right after I brought him home from the breeder and I thought it was due to food issues for a while.

Some dogs just don't like some foods too.

DukTruk · Post by **DukTruk** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:38 pm

In addition to reducing the amount, you should also check where you store your food. Dog food should be stored in the bag. If it's stored in a container, the container should be cleaned and disinfected every time you re-fill the container. When dog food is made, it's coated with an oil to add flavor. That oil can build up on the inside of the container if not cleaned. Take your hand and run it on the inside of the container or food bag and you will feel the oil I am referring to. Good luck

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:46 pm

Your pup has the runs because u don't feed RAW! Sorry guys I couldnt resist!
OP totally disregard my post.

Mike

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:14 pm

DukTruk wrote:In addition to reducing the amount, you should also check where you store your food. Dog food should be stored in the bag. If it's stored in a container, the container should be cleaned and disinfected every time you re-fill the container. When dog food is made, it's coated with an oil to add flavor. That oil can build up on the inside of the container if not cleaned. Take your hand and run it on the inside of the container or food bag and you will feel the oil I am referring to. Good luck

Cleaning the storage container every so often is not a bad idea but even though you have an oily residue in the container that is not something that interferes with a dogs digestion normally. They do spray oil on some feeds but it is done to get the high percentage fat content everyone wants today and not for flavor. I just do not see a need for disinfecting the can if that is what you use for storage.

Just a note, in the manufacturing process many of the trace ingredients are kept in containers but the container should be big enough to hold the bag as well as the ingredient. FDA insists on it as that is best way we know of to be able to fully identify the material. I always suggested to the mills I inspected it is just as good of an idea to store your finished product the same way so if something happens to you and the wife or neighbor has to come feed sometime they can tell what they are feeding also. Just make good sense to me.

Ezzy

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:17 am

If you store food even in food grade plastic you should clean the container with bleach, vinegar or peroxide to prevent rancid fat from forming in the pores of the plastic.

Plastic and oil have a very strong chemical attraction.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:05 am

I have been storing food in a plastic tote for years without cleaning. I have never had a problem.

Charlie

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:34 am

Had a conversation with a vet on this subject, not to long ago. Seems that there are cells that reside on the walls of the large intestine(?) that are active in removing the water from the stool. In the course of diarrhea these cells get washed away. This vet said it took about two weeks for the cells to re-grow.

Soooo, I would consider staying on the boiled rice and chicken with pumpkin for at least a week past the solidifying stage, and maybe giving the probiotic too.

Then maybe introducing the food of your choice, a little at a time, mixed in with the chicken and rice.

Why not go right to the food you are feeding your other dogs? As long as it has good levels of fat and protein, itr shoud give a youngster everything they need.

RayG

SD44 · Post by **SD44** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:51 am

When you switched to the Diamond Naturals did you gradually mix it in with the dog food that the breeder was feeding or was it a sudden change?

I agree with Ray. I would stick with the chicken and rice for another week or so. It is a bland diet and will help with the loose stools and get your pup back to normal. Then gradually add the Diamond Naturals kibble (since that is what you feed your other dogs and it is a good dog food) to the mix until you are feeding all kibble again.

We fed TOTW to ours because that is what the breeder fed and our dogs always had loose stools even after we cut back a little on their portions. After trial and error and a few different dog foods, we now feed Purina Pro Plan Sport and have had very good results. I am not selling Purina, just saying that is what works for my dogs.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:35 am

Adding pumpkin, what, right out of a can? I never heard of that. I think a lot of people overwork feeding a dog. I have fed several different premium foods in the past. Most worked very well with my dog's. And I didn't see much difference between them and grocery store foods. Been over twenty years with grocery store feed. I change once in a while for a month or so just to give the dogs something different. Ya don't want runny stools, make the switch half and half, new and old.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:35 pm

OMG... I am screaming at this post.
Sean the whole cause for your pups diarrhea in the first place was you changed food abruptly and maybe the bacteria found in the stool sample. YOU need to know what that bactria was Giardia or Coccidia. What was the medicine you got from the vet? Albon for Coccida or Fenbendazole, Febantel or metronidazole (trade name FlagylFlagyl for Giardia.

If your going to take your pup to the vet PLEASE follow the vets recommendations. If he says use the pro-biotics then USE THEM. The whole purpose for them is to help put good bacteria back into your pups gut that the antibiotic may kill out.
Then you changed the food again abruptly causing further digestive up set.

So pick a food, Diamond Naturals is great and stick to it. I also agree with others to cut back on the food by 1/4 of the daily amont per day until you get a good firm stool for at least 5 days before you add any more food. Also watch the treats you are using. If your food has no wheat, corn, soy, by-products etc. so should your treats, IMO. Why give junk food treats when your feeding high quality food.

All should be fine soon.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:20 am

I think the problem was/is that I was probably feeding too much and that I changed food too fast. I spoke with another friend who said they take a month to change dog foods whereas I was doing it in a couple of days.

I think the Diamond Naturals puppy food was probably fine, I just switched too fast and fed too much. Part of the reason I made the switch so quickly was I only had a small bag of food from the breeder and couldn't find any more of it locally. The next time I buy a pup (which will be years and years) I'll go straight to the local feed store the breeder uses and buy a bag there so I know I'm taking home enough. On the other hand, the small bag from the breeder might've lasted longer if I hadn't been feeding too much!

The vet did test the dog for Guardia and it was negative. I also asked specifically about Coccida and they said it wasn't that. I did give the dog the probiotic, I just couldn't understand (and I should've asked the vet) the sense of giving the probiotic at the same time as the antibiotic. The medication she prescribed was metronidazole.

I probably will end up using the Diamond Naturals, it was just a little scary the way diarrhea would show up almost immediately every time I introduced it, but again, I was probably giving too much, too fast.

Oh, we only leave the food in the bag.

Sorry to make you scream MikeB. . . .

DonF, a LOT of people recommended pumpkin and the dog LOVES it. She'll eat it right off a spoon. You just have to make sure it's plain, canned pumpkin, as opposed to canned pumpkin pie mix which has a bunch of spices.

Thank you everyone,
Sean

deke · Post by **deke** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:43 am

Sean wrote:I think the problem was/is that I was probably feeding too much and that I changed food too fast. I spoke with another friend who said they take a month to change dog foods whereas I was doing it in a couple of days.

I think the Diamond Naturals puppy food was probably fine, I just switched too fast and fed too much. Part of the reason I made the switch so quickly was I only had a small bag of food from the breeder and couldn't find any more of it locally. The next time I buy a pup (which will be years and years) I'll go straight to the local feed store the breeder uses and buy a bag there so I know I'm taking home enough. On the other hand, the small bag from the breeder might've lasted longer if I hadn't been feeding too much!

The vet did test the dog for Guardia and it was negative. I also asked specifically about Coccida and they said it wasn't that. I did give the dog the probiotic, I just couldn't understand (and I should've asked the vet) the sense of giving the probiotic at the same time as the antibiotic. The medication she prescribed was metronidazole.

I probably will end up using the Diamond Naturals, it was just a little scary the way diarrhea would show up almost immediately every time I introduced it, but again, I was probably giving too much, too fast.

Oh, we only leave the food in the bag.

Sorry to make you scream MikeB. . . .

DonF, a LOT of people recommended pumpkin and the dog LOVES it. She'll eat it right off a spoon. You just have to make sure it's plain, canned pumpkin, as opposed to canned pumpkin pie mix which has a bunch of spices.

Thank you everyone,
Sean

Lots of good advice in this topic, and you did a good job figuring out what you did wrong. My brother and sister inlaws pup has had the runs ever since they switched her food, and they keep switching from one kind to the next thinking it is the food. How is the pup now? Is she starting to solid up on the diamond or are you not feeding her it yet?

Labs4Me · Post by **Labs4Me** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:50 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Get the regular Chicken and Rice Naturals and feed 1/4 below the max recommended amount. LB is lamb and high energy dogs may noy digest it as well.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Besides, LBP food just gets you fewer kcals per bag while charging you more money per bag. As long as the calcium isn't too high and you don't overfeed, using an ALS will serve your puppy better. IMO.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:05 pm

Sean wrote:a LOT of people recommended pumpkin...

Do u feed ONLY the pumpkin or mix it with dog food? What are the portions? My pup cant kick the runs either, and he is on anti-diarrhea meds.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:48 pm

She's doing better, I just started her back on the Diamonds puppy food and would like to be able to feed it because we have a big bag of it. If it just wont work than I'll probably take the advice of getting the adult Chicken and Rice food. In fact, I could even switch the big dog over to it (He gets the Beef Meal and Rice version now) and we would only have one bag of food in the house. As I already mentioned, I also cut way back on the total overall amount of food. I think I was just feeding her too much, even when it was only the Chicken and Rice. I also started feeding her 3 times a day to help spread things out a little. She's just such a chow hound though that I worry about starving her, especially with the Chicken and Rice that doesn't come with feeding directions.

deke wrote:My brother and sister inlaws pup has had the runs ever since they switched her food, and they keep switching from one kind to the next thinking it is the food.

I know how they feel. I was kind of feeling a little crazy but I felt so bad for her with the runs and constantly having to go outside (not too mention having to get up 4 or 5 times a night to let her out). I wanted to find a solution. I was really hoping the vet would give me a definitive answer and a cure but the problem was, most likely, just me.

PntrRookie wrote:Do u feed ONLY the pumpkin or mix it with dog food? What are the portions? My pup cant kick the runs either, and he is on anti-diarrhea meds.

I just put a spoonful or two on top of her food, She usually eats it first. I have hidden her pills in a spoonful of it and held the spoon in front of her and she licked it up, she really likes it!

It sounds like you are working with a vet already but the only advice I can give is have the pup tested for the major things (Parvo, Guardia, and Coccida), take a stool sample to the vet and have that looked at. If the vet can't give you anything solid (yes, the pun was kind of intended) then switch your dog to Chicken and Rice and use it to "re-set" your dogs stomach. We would cook 2 cups of medium grain brown rice in 4 cups of water and boil 2 or 3 Chicken breasts, then chop of the Chicken breasts and mix it in with the rice. We talked about boiling the Chicken and then using the water as a broth to cook the rice in but never did this, I imagine it would add a little flavor to the rice without changing anything. We keep this in the fridge so when I feed it I'll pour a little warm water over it to warm it up and it also helps the dog get some water which they are probably a little behind on anyways with the runs. The only other bit of advice I could give, based on my experience, is too take a hard look at the total amount of food you are feeding and consider if it's too much.

Some people I talked to suggested a 24 hour fast before starting the Chicken and Rice but I couldn't bring myself to not feeding her for a full 24 hours. Within 2 or 3 days of the Chicken and Rice, she was solid. She didn't start running again till i re-introduced the puppy food (too quickly and too much food overall).

Someone who's way smarter than me could probably figure out how many calories are in the chicken and how many are in the rice and figure out an amount that you should be feeding the dog.

Sean

Ps. My advice may be worth exactly what you paid for it.

JeremyS · Post by **JeremyS** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:31 pm

Another side note about switching foods like you have been is that there is there seems to be some belief that there is an increased risk of developmental orthopedic disease in larger breed dogs when you make several food switches. Just throwing that out there for something to think about. I am a little surprised with using the pumpkin to firm things up because usually it is recommended for easing constipation in dogs. I would think that it would have the opposite effect that you are looking for.

deke · Post by **deke** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:35 pm

JeremyS wrote:Another side note about switching foods like you have been is that there is there seems to be some belief that there is an increased risk of developmental orthopedic disease in larger breed dogs when you make several food switches. Just throwing that out there for something to think about. I am a little surprised with using the pumpkin to firm things up because usually it is recommended for easing constipation in dogs. I would think that it would have the opposite effect that you are looking for.

Pumpkin has a ton of soluble fiber which attracts water, slows down through the digestive tract and "gels", resulting in firmer stool.
Insoluble fiber adds bulk to the stool, speeding it through digestive tract. Products like bran and beans contain mostly insoluble fiber.

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