Dilemma about lab, springer or DD choice

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:52 pm

I hope this is in the right area.... Hey all! I am new here, I have been reading all about a few varieties of dog that I am interested in and I need help deciding. I have been researching for over a year, and have narrowed my selection down to he following, Deutsch Drathaar, lab, or a English springer spaniel. I have always hunted over and with labs, minus a Gsp and an English setter. I do all kinds of hunting, including ducks, pheasants (wild and farm), grouse, and doves. I also do a ton of deer, bear, rabbit, squirrel, turkey and predator hunting. I have come to the conclusion that I only want to add one more dog to my family, as I already have an amazing Australian shepherd. I am looking for a dog that will sit quietly in the duck blind, bust brush for pheasants and help me find grouse. I have been told to get a DD but I have concerns about their ability to break ices late season, as well as their ability to sit still for a period of time in the duck blind. My other concern with a DD is that they are pointers. Some of my pheasant hunts happen in tall standing corn and I feel it would be a disservice to a pointer to hunt in such cover. Now as far as labs, I have never hunted for grouse with one but I hear it can be done, just not the best. Their less than stellar health makes me nervous as my last lab died suddenly at 6 and broke my heart. She was my girl and when she died I swore I couldn't have another yellow lab. As far as sprinters, I have heard and seen good things with peasants, but my dad has one that won't touch a duck to save her life. Is this common? She is pretty good for grouse, and will find any dove you can hit. My dilemma is that none of these breeds is going to be the best choice for at least one of my hunting scenarios. Does anyone have any advice or insight? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:30 pm

I'd tell you to opt for the lab. They'll break ice like a CoaSt Guard ice breaker, sit all day in a blind, flush pheasant with the best of them. You also are spared the high coat maintenance of the Springer.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:04 am

Of the three I'd get a lab. Temperament is better than a DD if you have another dog. Labs are pretty all purpose.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:48 pm

I hunt my lab on grouse a lot and she is pretty good. She's 9 years old so she's not as hard pushish as she was in her prime, but she can still find birds.

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:53 pm

Grange, do you ever run into problems with the birds flushing too far out?

deke · Post by **deke** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:09 pm

Our hunting group this year consisted of one 3 yr old lab one 5 yr old springer and one 2 yr old springer. I can confidently tell you that in our group the lab out preformed the springers on pheasants 5-1 maybe more, the springers however found more birds in tight thick cover; and were beasts when it came to trailing wounded birds. We don't take the springers duck hunting due to the fact they get to dang cold and shut down. This is my experience, and it is not very vast just a small slice.

FirearmFan · Post by **FirearmFan** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:46 pm

I have a springer pup and I train with a bunch of people who hunt and field trial springers. Based on my experiences with my pup, all the springers that I train with, as well as all research I've done I can say that springers are terrific family dogs and very versatile hunters. They can do all types of upland and they are great duck/goose dogs as well. If you get a field bred springer then there isn't that much maintenance with their coat at all.

Tht being said I'm going to recommend a lab in this case and the reason is the breaking ice comment you made. A springer's coat kind of sponges up water so while they may have the will to duck hunt late season, I wouldn't want to risk it if it is extremely cold. Labs can hunt upland very well. I've hunted grouse behind a lab an he did great.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:17 pm

Minneguy wrote:Grange, do you ever run into problems with the birds flushing too far out?

When the birds are real skittish yeah the birds will flush early. I just watch for her to get birdy and try to get ready. I find it much easier to prepare for a shot with my setter than my lab.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:05 pm

How about a Pointing Lab ?

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:40 pm

Del lolo I've never considered that, I always wondered how they get labs that point. Any idea?

Grange, what kind of setter? I am looking at adopting an English from the humane society

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:52 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:10 pm

A lab sounds like the best choice for your needs. This is coming from an ESS guy. Whatever you hear about coats; the truth is a Labrador is much easier to maintain than a Springer. Particularly when it comes to upland hunting.

Not a lot of experience here with the Drats, but in general labs seem to have a much better disposition. Also give the Brittish Labs a look before making your choice. Check out Haynes' dogs www.britlabs.com

Good luck,

Nate

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:55 pm

Thanks for the link Nate, I have had a British lab in the past, she was the best!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:17 am

Buy American. No other lab in the world can hold a candle to ours. Unless you want to simply spend more and get less.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:32 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Buy American. No other lab in the world can hold a candle to ours. Unless you want to simply spend more and get less.

Bold statement and depends what company you are in?

This one gives off a 'Million candlepower ' light in my eyes

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:15 am

polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Buy American. No other lab in the world can hold a candle to ours. Unless you want to simply spend more and get less.
Bold statement and depends what company you are in?
This one gives off a 'Million candlepower ' light in my eyes

Robt., GH's talking about "our" British Labs - that like most gundogs need to have the fire lit in 'em (instead of being advertised as "coming 'pre-trained'"). And when they do (have the fire lit in them)...

...you get a lot of bang for your buck, just like with American performance Labs.

MG

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:50 am

Sounds like a lab is probably the best fit for you. I'd probably call Mike Lardy for one. Maybe some of you know a better route.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:24 am

The Labrador is the Jack of all trades while being the master of one (waterfowl), or maybe two (Ringnecks), quite possibly three (Blue Grouse), you get the idea...
I prefer the american field bred types

Minneguy · Post by **Minneguy** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:05 am

Man you guys have some great looking labs! There is going to be a lab puppy in my house, and eventually a DD, simply because I've always wanted a pointer for grouse in the tight cover where it is sometimes hard to get a flushed bird. And it would be nice to have two dogs that would allow me to hunt everything, no matter the situation. No need to convince me about labs haha, I hunted everything over my old yellow girl, ducks geese rabbits coons, shed antlers, woodchucks and even a couple foxes.
I wonder why they aren't considered a "versatile" breed. Anybody know?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:44 am

Minneguy wrote:Man you guys have some great looking labs! There is going to be a lab puppy in my house, and eventually a DD, simply because I've always wanted a pointer for grouse in the tight cover where it is sometimes hard to get a flushed bird. And it would be nice to have two dogs that would allow me to hunt everything, no matter the situation. No need to convince me about labs haha, I hunted everything over my old yellow girl, ducks geese rabbits coons, shed antlers, woodchucks and even a couple foxes.
I wonder why they aren't considered a "versatile" breed. Anybody know?

Because they don't point. They are considered a flushing dog. Doesn't mean they aren't versatile though as they are very much so. Same with a springer. The "versatile" breeds are the ones that point in addition to retrieving and all the other stuff you need in a gun dog. Don't get hung up on the title, labs are plenty versatile enough.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:19 am

Minneguy wrote:Del lolo I've never considered that, I always wondered how they get labs that point. Any idea?

Grange, what kind of setter? I am looking at adopting an English from the humane society

I have a field bred english setter that has a lot of cover dog blood in her pedigree. She'll hold a point all day long so I can get in a better position for a shot and not worry about her breaking. With my lab she used to hold the bird until I told her to flush, but once I got my setter the lab stopped holding and went in for the flush right away. I think it was the competition of another dog that made the lab go back to fushing immediately.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:06 pm

Lab guys are going to send me hate mail. I am not a lab guy. Labs are awesome don't get me wrong, They are like vanilla ice-cream. Which I love. The other two breeds you mentioned are like Chocolate with some mocha chip or some swirls. What i mean is those two other breeds have a little more to them and not everybody is doing it. I tend to branch out though, no fear of hacking out on a new path alone. I say branch out. But i will write this just so no one else has too. Lots of people use Labs for a reason! They work.

Runningdog · Post by **Runningdog** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:57 am

Lab and go black

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:47 am

Minneguy wrote:Del lolo I've never considered that, I always wondered how they get labs that point. Any idea?

Some 7% to 10% of Labs - from non-pointing ancestry will point.
From top PL breeders, 95% to 100% will point.
There were Pointers in the origin of the Labrador, so the genes are there, selective breeding
has resulted in the modern PL.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:52 am

CDN_Cocker wrote: 1. Because they don't point. They are considered a flushing dog.

2. Doesn't mean they aren't versatile though as they are very much so.

3. The "versatile" breeds are the ones that point in addition to retrieving and all the other stuff you need in a gun dog.

1. They don't point ?
Exactly who is it that "considers them to be a flushing dog" ?

2. & 3. PLs point, they retrieve, they do both fur and feather.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:00 am

Minneguy wrote: 1. There is going to be a lab puppy in my house, and eventually a DD, simply because I've always wanted a pointer for grouse in the tight cover where it is sometimes hard to get a flushed bird.

2. I wonder why they aren't considered a "versatile" breed. Anybody know?

1. With a PL, you don't need two dogs.
2. It's because they are not a Pointing Breed. PLs are not a seperate breed - they are merely a variety of the Labrador Retriever. Some Labs flush, some point and some point and flush on command.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:12 am

You won't get any argument from me about labs being good flushing dog but Britain's lab purists would not be likely to call them that . For them it is a retriever pure and simple.

I have worked labs in the beating line at British shoots and I know they can be very good flushing dogs . I have owned a number of labs but none of them pointed although I have seen two or three that did . What I never saw was any of those pointing labs do so at a distance from the bird. They were almost on top of the bird before they pointed. Do American pointing labs anywhere near equal the pointers/ setters etc. skill in this regard or are they also close distance pointers ?

Bill T.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:16 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Because they don't point.

Really ? What would you call this ?

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:21 am

Trekmoor wrote: They were almost on top of the bird before they pointed. Do American pointing labs anywhere near equal the pointers/ setters etc. skill in this regard or are they also close distance pointers ?

Bill T.

Bill
In the above picture, (you can see where the dog's nose is pointed) the bird (wild pheasant) was over 20 yards in front of the dog.
With a nice breeze into the face of the dog, I've seen them point as far as 40 yards.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:34 am

Del Lolo I didn't mean to ruin your day. I was saying in general more labs flush than point.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:36 am

I would choose a canoe or silver lab over a pointing lab.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:37 am

LMAO lets not get into that topic

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:46 am

nikegundog wrote:I would choose a canoe or silver lab over a pointing lab.

So, it's pretty cool that we can have a choice.
We can hunt over whichever type or breed of dog best suits our hunting style.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:49 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Del Lolo I didn't mean to ruin your day. I was saying in general more labs flush than point.

Hmmmmmmmm. I thought you said, "Because they don't point".
Maybe my eyes are going bad

Also, back to my question, "Exactly who is it that "considers them to be a flushing dog" ?

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:57 am

Poor wording on my part. They are considered a retriever. Either way they are not considered a versatile breed. I'm not looking to argue with you Del Lolo, I couldn't care less about whether a lab points or flushes. Move on bud.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:09 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:1. Poor wording on my part.

2. They are considered a retriever.

3. Either way they are not considered a versatile breed.

4. I'm not looking to argue with you Del Lolo, I couldn't care less about whether a lab points or flushes.

1. Apparrently so
2. Correct. In the Breed Description they are described as Retrievers -- Not Flushing Retrievers or Pointing Retrievers
3. Correct -- They are a Retriever Breed.
4. Just trying to keep the facts straight --- If you "coulodn't care less", why did you even post in the first place ?

Moving on ............................. Unless more incorrect statements are made by someone.

Waterdogs1 · Post by **Waterdogs1** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:17 am

For what you described you would be most likely best served with a good lab out of good working bloodlines. Point or no point, British or American the dog that are bred to hunt they don't care. Then it is up to you. I love springers and would have one but I am not a fan of the longer coat and the fact that where I am from a late season duck hunt would be pretty rough on them. They are amazing dogs and with a well bred and well trained dog you are going to get something special. They are the perfect little snuggle buddy and hunting partner. As far as pointing labs I am not a huge fan.When ever you breed for a specific trait you are not taking to consideration all the rest. Everyone has their own standard of a good hunting dog and different desires, but in the end it is going to boil most down to what you do with it. Should be gun what ever you get.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:43 am

Del Lolo wrote:
Also, back to my question, "Exactly who is it that "considers them to be a flushing dog" ?

About everyone, and they have since labs were brought to this country. It's the pointing part that's new.

As far as versatile, probably no dog could match a pointing lab. They love rote work so make tremendous handling dog's, are great water dogs, love retrieving, and handle cold weather or hot reasonably well.

Now, if they just didn't look like they had a banana sticking out their "bleep" when they pointed..........

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:15 pm

Waterdogs1 wrote: When ever you breed for a specific trait you are not taking to consideration all the rest .

The respected breeders of PLs breed to retain all of the great characteristics that Labs are famous for.
Those traits have not been diminished by breeding to enhance the point.

Waterdogs1 · Post by **Waterdogs1** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:30 pm

They have to at some point. The gene pool of natural pointing retrievers is so small not to. Go down the list of genetic traits of each dog and it really boils down to what you want. You are going to have give and take anytime you are trying to breed for one specific trait. No different as color or any othe genetic marker. You have to make list of priorities and I can tell you folks that are breeding for competative trial dogs in the retriever world are not looking at if that dog points or not. If I had a dog that would do both that would be fine with me but not my first interest. The fact is you see very few labs that are going do both and do it well.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:16 pm

Waterdogs1 wrote: The fact is you see very few labs that are going do both and do it well.

Always makes me think of AFC-CFC-CAFC-GMPR-MHR Jazztime Last Chance v Pekisko.

I have (PL) hunt test dogs that are highly titled in both the retriever stuff as well as upland stuff.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:24 pm

Del Lolo wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:1. Poor wording on my part.

2. They are considered a retriever.

3. Either way they are not considered a versatile breed.

4. I'm not looking to argue with you Del Lolo, I couldn't care less about whether a lab points or flushes.
1. Apparrently so
2. Correct. In the Breed Description they are described as Retrievers -- Not Flushing Retrievers or Pointing Retrievers
3. Correct -- They are a Retriever Breed.
4. Just trying to keep the facts straight --- If you "coulodn't care less", why did you even post in the first place ?

Moving on ............................. Unless more incorrect statements are made by someone.

WOW! :roll:

Charlie

Waterdogs1 · Post by **Waterdogs1** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:39 pm

I doubt producing a pointing dog was their intent when they did the breeding.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:30 am

I'm not saying there aren't Labs that point...its just what i have seen over the past 10-15 years, it doesn't seem to be very dependable. I don't think its as genetically "programmed" in this small sub-group of the breed as some folks want to imagine.
I have had a number of friends buy PL and so far only one managed to get his dog to "stand" his game. Now...PLEASE....I am not saying that there aren't very good dogs, but from what i have seen, its no where near as dependable a trait as in the Vdog breeds.

I will admit, I think you get a Lab to the advanced levels of retrieving more easily but you need to ask yourself if you need a dog to take an exact line for 300 yds and Hup on the whistle. For the majority of waterfowling, many breeds will do a good job of recovering game and getting it back to the boat/blind quickly with some structured training.

As far as labs in the heat, I have my doubts. Even pointing dogs start to show the effects when you start to see the temps climb north of 70. Heavier bodied/coated dogs are usually going to feel it first. The Retrievers are best adapted to the cold but unless you are breaking ice for hours, a good neoprene vest and a little common sense and a high desire dog will cope just fine.

I'd like to see more PL and be convinced...but for me its still a work in progress. I think that is also evident when we keep seeing the same few "example" photos on the internet. Seeing the number of folks that buy Vdogs that want to see their dogs working close, even under the gun, I think there is a place for the PL especially for those spending time in the blind.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:36 am

I think your post is good JKP. You need to be honest with yourself and with your dog. I know my breed's limitations. I just don't quite understand the PL movement... If I wanted a pointing dog, I'd buy an established pointing breed not a PL, but that's just me. Not saying they aren't just as good, I've never seen one work in the flesh. If it works for you, give 'er!

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:02 am

JKP
I'm pretty much in agreement with your post (not totally, but close enough).

My friend and mentor has run his PL in the National Bird Dog Challenge -- in the Pointing Division. The rest of the dogs are all traditional Pointing or VDog breeds. One other time there was one other PL (who took 4th Place)

He and his PL have taken 3rd Place in the WA State championships three years straight.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:35 am

I love my lab. But she does not handle heat very well, IMO. I haven't seen a lab that did. On a South Dakota pheasant hunt, I use my lab for almost all of the hunting. She's very productive.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:45 am

Del Lolo wrote:JKP

Dog 1 " I wanna go see what's over that mountain." Dog 2 "I like dad." Dog 3 "What's wrong with those two dogs? Don't they sit?"

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:58 am

Not all pointing dogs handle the heat well either. Wirehairs, Griff's, and many setters melt in it.

Many, many, pointing dogs don't point naturally like say, a pointer or setter will. Pointing dogs from great lines will pretty much staunch themselves on point, it takes training for wsf. That's not the case with the pointing lab's I've worked with and seen. They tend to flash point and need more work to steady them. Seems like they're always very happy to flush a bird.

A specialty dog will be better at it's job 90% of the time. A retrier will be the more outstanding waterfowl dog, the pointer the more outstanding bird dog. A versatile dog is a combination of both but great at neither (usually).

Most pointing labs are not a joy to behold on point, but some versatiles are not either. The lab would look better with a bobbed tail.

My own DD has the ugliest point you've ever seen.

Really a tough decision, but to make a versatile pointing dog of a pointing lab, in my experience and view, is more difficult than finishing a versatile dog.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:31 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: Really a tough decision, but to make a versatile pointing dog of a pointing lab, in my experience and view, is more difficult than finishing a versatile dog.

Maybe not more difficult -- but definitely more of a fine balance when training the "Retriever stuff" along with the "Pointy stuff".