Brittanies in America

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Trekmoor
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Brittanies in America

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:04 am

This question might have been better on a show dog forum but I am not a member of any so I will ask it here.

In U.S. dog shows are American "type" brittanies and French type brittanies judged in separate rings under separate specialist judges ?

Are they classified as being separate breeds ? In Britain only E.B.'s can be shown , there is a definite bias towards E.B.'s here.
In Australia it seems almost all the dogs being shown are American brittanies and some of the Oz show folk feel that if E.B.'s are to be fairly judged there then specialist judges would have to be brought in from France at horrendous expense.

Is there a happy "middle of the road" on this subject ?

Bill T.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by deseeker » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:12 am

In AKC, the black coloring in coat or nose is a disqualification for britts in shows.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by whatsnext » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:21 am

I am no expert but if a EB is akc registered you can show it as long as the pup is not black and and does not have a black nose but i could be wrong this is just what i remember. Only the UKC see's them as separate breeds the AKC does not, i have owned both and currently have one of each and i feel unless you are buying a pup form dedicated FT lines there is not going to be a difference between the two. I have had french britts that would run 200- 300 yards out and american britts that would not go much more than 100 yards out. As far as looks some EB breeding's will be a little more cobby in shape, but i do not see a bigger variance in size and shape than you do in setters, pointers etc....

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:25 am

There is no distinction in the AKC - there is one breed, the Brittany. Since the registry is a parentage only registry, and the AKC has a reciprocal agreement with all members of the FCI, any dog can be registered as a Brittany if it is registered elsewhere, that dog can be bred and it's offspring registered as Brittany. However black is a disqualifying color in the AKC standard so any dog with black cannot be shown there.
Some Brittany fanciers in the US applied to the UKC for recognition of a separate breed - the EB and made up their own rules for which dogs were or were not eligible to be a member of such breed. The UKC has a few dog shows that will "confirm" members of the breed. I don't know if things have changed or not, but the UKC is not an "official" registry and as such has no reciprocity agreements with the FCI. This means that any titles conferred by the UKC and the registration certificates of the dogs from UKC have no meaning outside of the country.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:29 am

Thanks Deseeker, I'd forgotten about that. Much the same happens here where a flesh coloured nose or double coloured nose is frowned on. It may be a disqualification, I'm not sure about that, I am not a show person.
So you hold completely separate show ring classes then and have specialist judges for each class ? It sounds like a breed split is well under way or has already happened.
I do not wish to cause a big argument with this next question .... :roll: Here goes anyway ! Which of the two types does best in American tests and trials or are they about the same in a working environment ?

Thanks to you too Slistoe, I read your answer after writing the above.

Bill T.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by whatsnext » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:02 pm

I do not think akc will split the breed into two different breeds anytime in the near future, and as far as titles it will depend on what venues you are running in AKC,UKC,NAVHDA,NSTRA. Of those four the only one you will see mainly EB's is ukc because as i stated earlier that is the only one that sees them as a different breed, i think EB's would be just as successful in every venue except the bigger running trial dogs.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:54 pm

I really doubt there will be a breed split. It would be tough to convince those who made the change to allow black in the standard to accept that they have the "new" breed", even though there really is no other conclusion to be made. Then there is the question of the dogs without black - can they belong to both breeds?

whatsnext - are you forgetting that one of the strongest hour dogs to run a few years back was an EB?

Trekmoor - the only thing that prevents good dogs from showing their stuff is the attitude of the owners.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by whatsnext » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:35 pm

slistoe wrote: whatsnext - are you forgetting that one of the strongest hour dogs to run a few years back was an EB?

I would think that was an exception, I have seen nothing to say they are two different breeds i just believe in FT lines you will see the biggest difference in hunting traits. I am only speaking from what i have seen in the field not at trials so i could be way off base.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:12 pm

whatsnext wrote:
slistoe wrote: whatsnext - are you forgetting that one of the strongest hour dogs to run a few years back was an EB?

I would think that was an exception, I have seen nothing to say they are two different breeds i just believe in FT lines you will see the biggest difference in hunting traits. I am only speaking from what i have seen in the field not at trials so i could be way off base.
Strong hour dogs are always the exception.
There will always exist the dichotomy between "trial dogs" and "hunting dogs" from those that wish to perpetrate the idea. The dogs don't really care. The good ones just want to hunt.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Firelight » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:44 pm

I apologize in that that I am brand new to the forum and have not yet introduced myself, promise to do so, but wanted to share a little info for the OP. I am a setter person so am pretty new to the Brit world myself but my partner has 2 French Brits that do a heck of a job for us in the field. His dogs are registered both UKC and AKC which I think is fairly common in the breed. I have attended both AKC shows as well as UKC FB events and I would say that there are some subtle differences in conformation with the FBs being cobbier and stockier in body and FBs have different heads. I have not hunted behind enough different Brits to have an opinion on hunting styles. His particular dogs are hard running, required little training to point, back and retrieve and range from 40-200 yards depending on where/what we are hunting.
I
There is an EB club called Club d'Epagneul Breton of the United States that is tied to the UKC and seems to perhaps be the biggest (only?) push to identify/keep the FB as a separate breed, at least here in US. This club hosts an annual event involving a field trial and a conformation show, which is always judged by individuals from France. Dogs are rated individually and compared/judged against other dogs on conformation. I believe this is similar to the model that the
Drahthaar folks use here in the US but the FB folks do not have the registration/breeding controls that the Drahts have.
This is what FB club web page states as their mission:

Mission

Protect and promote the Epagneul Breton breed by maintaining our breed’s unique qualities and characteristics as developed for more than a century in France, the country of our breed’s origin;

Preserve the Epagneul Breton’s unique conformation and working standard in the field which traits are to provide for a close working gun dog for the foot hunter;

Maintain the fieldwork and conformation standards and rules for the Epagneul Breton breed, as developed in France, the country of the Breed’s origin;

Continue to advance the separation of the Epagneul Breton breed, from the American Brittany breed in the United States and abroad; and to discourage and prevent cross breeding among representatives of the two distinctly different breeds;

To assist the United Kennel Club Inc. in promoting and encouraging participation in a system of Field Trials, Conformation Shows, and T.A.N.S. (Natural Ability Tests) in North America which are modeled as closely as possible after those held in Europe under the auspices of the F.C.I.;

Educate the public and media about the Epagneul Breton Breed in the United States and around the world;

Advocate ethical and responsible breeding practices among breeders of the Epagneul Breton through a voluntary Code of Ethics.


I have no idea if this is the right or wrong thing to do for the breed or not. I think the name thing is very confusing: Brit? Amer? French? Epagneul Breton? I just hope that folks who want a particular type of Brit can always find one to do the job for them. I know that when we recently went shopping for a pup and we wanted one very similar to what we have that we found the best matches for us happened to be folks who align with UKC/EB.

One of our FB's , I think you can really see the difference in the head from an "Amer" Brit.

Image

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Ruffshooter » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:50 am

AKC has Brittanies as one breed, Any Black being a disqualification in Show/confirmation.
UKC has separated the two.
EB and AB: The EB follows the FCI rules and has show and field. Black is part of the standard and happily accepted in the show rings and field trials.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by whatsnext » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:24 am

slistoe wrote:
whatsnext wrote:
slistoe wrote: whatsnext - are you forgetting that one of the strongest hour dogs to run a few years back was an EB?

I would think that was an exception, I have seen nothing to say they are two different breeds i just believe in FT lines you will see the biggest difference in hunting traits. I am only speaking from what i have seen in the field not at trials so i could be way off base.
Strong hour dogs are always the exception.
There will always exist the dichotomy between "trial dogs" and "hunting dogs" from those that wish to perpetrate the idea. The dogs don't really care. The good ones just want to hunt.

I feel the main difference between "FT" and "Hunitng" dogs is the level of training but you can not ignore specific traits that we breed for among individual breeds.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by clink83 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:40 pm

A lot of Britts bred for FT have shorter coats, finer bone structure and more white. My dog is from FT lines but my mom has a pup from nontitled breeding, and there is a big difference in conformation. If you run them side by side my dog is faster and has a smoother gait than the other dog. Its more than just the level of training imo.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:26 pm

clink83 wrote:A lot of Britts bred for FT have shorter coats, finer bone structure and more white. My dog is from FT lines but my mom has a pup from nontitled breeding, and there is a big difference in conformation. If you run them side by side my dog is faster and has a smoother gait than the other dog. Its more than just the level of training imo.
This could be said about any two dogs no matter what they are used for.

Ezzy

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by fourtrax » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:38 pm

Where did the "American" Britts come from?

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by boonebrit » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:58 am

fourtrax wrote:Where did the "American" Britts come from?
First off... the history of Brittany lineage is clouded with questions. However, it is known that in the mid 1800's English Gentry would travel to Brittany (cultural region in
France) to hunt woodcock, bringing with them their pointers and setters. It is believed that many of the dogs were left there between hunting seasons, and thus bred to the local spaniel type dogs, most of which were liver and white. The first Brittany's arrived in the states in the late 1920's, These dogs tend to be wider ranging, bigger dogs, with more white in the coats... better apt for covering ground with coats that stood out in field.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by cbump » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:48 am

I don't know anything about Brits but that is a beautiful dog that firelight posted a pic of.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by slistoe » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:59 am

fourtrax wrote:Where did the "American" Britts come from?
France.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:08 pm

My first Brits had French dogs in their pedigree and looked and acted very much as the French Brits of today do. Over the years they have been bred to fit into our way of hunting here in the states. The coats are little smoother, they are little bolder, a lot less roans, and a lot more liver colored dogs, and tend to hunt faster and wider than they did when they got here. Finally someone imported some Brits from France, liked the French type and decided they must be a different breed. During the time between the two imports the French had added black to their standard but it was not adopted here in the states. However some other minor changes were made to the wording of by the American Brittany Club to our standard.

One thing that I am curious about is when in another 70 years someone decides to import mot Brits, what will they be called? We might end up with the American Brit, the American French Brit, and the French Brit. I always thought dogs like people that were born here were American but I guess I was wrong.

Ezzy

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:33 pm

Thankyou for all the responses. I have owned an American type brit and two French type brits. My preference in terms of "looks" was for the American brit. She looked a bit setterish but I prefer that to the cob shape required in the French brits.
In terms of how well the two "types" worked the American type brit was definitely better but the reason for that may be that I no longer can shoot over my own dogs and cannot do the walking needed to find game that I used to do.
I like my present E.B. very much, she is developing well as a gundog but I cannot make a fair comparison of her against my original American Brittany since I cannot train her in the same way.

She is now 12 months old, this is her about 6 weeks ago backing the vizsla.
Image

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by slistoe » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:59 pm

Good thing someone forgot to cut the tail on that viszla.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:47 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: When I first saw the photograph I thought her tail was a length of old hose-pipe ! :lol:

Bill T.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by cbump » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:04 pm

slistoe wrote:Good thing someone forgot to cut the tail on that viszla.

My first thoughts were that tail is too long.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:17 am

cbump wrote:
slistoe wrote:Good thing someone forgot to cut the tail on that viszla.

My first thoughts were that tail is too long.
My first thought was "nice find" and way to dig em out!

Nice little Britt Bill. :)

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by cbump » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:58 pm

That was my second :)

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by rkappes » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:19 pm

Hopefully Mark Dinsmore will share some information. On here he's ohmymy111. He knows a lot about french britts and has been successful in many different venues with his dogs. Hopefully he'll chime in.

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Re: Brittanies in America

Post by Neil » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:47 pm

I have only seen two EB's that were competitive horseback field trial dogs, both owned by Ken Blackman of Tenn.

His Tank dog ran and won at the highest levels. I saw him run at the Ames Amateur on the same courses the National Championship is contested have 3 finds in 15 minutes!

If I wanted to know about running black nosed Britts I would Google him at Wolf River Kennels.

Neil

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