atvs and trials

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big_fish
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atvs and trials

Post by big_fish » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Are there any dog games that allow the use of atvs instead oh horse?

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Grange » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:13 pm

My dog club host trials and there has been times when the trials are on private grounds where the gallery is allowed to ridee on 4-wheelers. The judges and bird planter are on 4-wheelers as well. The handlers are walking. Personally I really do not care for this set up. I can live with the judges on 4-wheelers but when the gallery is on them it is really distracting especially if the handlers get separated and the gallery splits up.

If you mean can the handler ride on a 4-wheeler then as far as my club is concerned there has to be a valid reason.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:02 pm

There are various provisions for disabled handlers, with ATV's being one of the options.

However, it is illegal to use any type of motorized off road vehicle on most public hunting or wildlife management lands. Since most trials are conducted on public lands, it is not often that you will see a disabled handler on an ATV because that handler would be the one responsible for procuring the required permits and permissions. More often the disabled handler is mounted and a second party is designated to flush and be their hands and feet on the ground.

I do not know about AKC, or some of the other organizations, but there is an AFTCA ruling in place which prohibits judges from using an ATV as a judging conveyance.


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Re: atvs and trials

Post by steamer » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:19 am

nstra allows atvs. there are some rules about the use.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:45 am

AKC only allows ATV's for approved disabled person and the club must also approve the use of the ATV. The brace mate does not have to run with the person on the ATV. So, in many cases I am guessing the person on the ATV is by himself and no brace mate.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:25 am

Grange wrote:If you mean can the handler ride on a 4-wheeler...there has to be a valid reason.
NBHA: ONLY if the amateur handler has the appropriate approval/paperwork for a disabled handler. Other than that - NO one can handle off an ATV.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by dan v » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:32 am

RayGubernat wrote:There are various provisions for disabled handlers, with ATV's being one of the options.

However, it is illegal to use any type of motorized off road vehicle on most public hunting or wildlife management lands. Since most trials are conducted on public lands, it is not often that you will see a disabled handler on an ATV because that handler would be the one responsible for procuring the required permits and permissions. More often the disabled handler is mounted and a second party is designated to flush and be their hands and feet on the ground.

I do not know about AKC, or some of the other organizations, but there is an AFTCA ruling in place which prohibits judges from using an ATV as a judging conveyance.


RayG
Ray...I was part of a disabled handler team at our recent NFT...I was the designated flusher. There was a mounted scout as well. It's confusing as heck, as I don't know that there are clearly set boundaries as what the
flusher" can and cannot do. For instance, I assumed that when I was on the ground flushing, I was handling the dog. I flush, go back relocate the dog if necessary....as if it was my dog. Now in hindsight I wonder if I should wait to be told be the handler to relocate....as I'm only the flusher.

I'm glad to help an elderly disabled friend...but it's a cluster.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by topher40 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:37 am

There is a gentleman on FB that rants about allowing disabled folks to use atv's, not sure if he is a member here although I am probably not the only one that has friended him from here. He claims to be instrumental in creating laws in MI to force clubs to allow their use. My problems with the argument is that NONE of my landowners would allow it! When you allow it for one then the next year your going to end up with 40 goes going for a trail ride on their atvs tearing up the ground. I run my trial on private ground and have allowed disabled handlers to run off of horse and have even supplied them with a mount. I really dont see what the issue is with atv's. If you dont like horses bad enough to get on one to play the game then you dont like the game enough to play it in the first place. :roll:

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:15 am

I think he has been here before Chris anyway I know I have read some of his posts some where.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:14 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I think he has been here before Chris anyway I know I have read some of his posts some where.

Folks using the American Disabilities Act as a club to beat other folks into submission is nothing new. I believe more injustices and more waste to the general public and industry have been perpetrated in the name of the ADA than any other legislation, with the possible exception of the continued insistence on Affirmative action and (supposed but phony)EEO over the last ten years. But we won't go there.

Field trialing is a participant sport and as such, does require a certain amount of athleticism. I would gladly help anyone to enjoy the sport...and I have... but not to the detriment of the other participants and the sport itself. That becomes unfair.

A pro golfer is required to walk the course during a tournament, as I understand it.

You do not see folks in wheelchairs on the field playing halfback in a major league soccer game, on the line of scrimmage as a nose tackle or guard at an NFL Foot ball game or playing center field in major league baseball. Why not??

You do not see the US government putting in ramps and walkways up the slopes of Mount McKinley or across the face of el Capitan to accommodate some disabled person who wants to climb them. Why not??

Off my soapbox.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:03 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I think he has been here before Chris anyway I know I have read some of his posts some where.

Folks using the American Disabilities Act as a club to beat other folks into submission is nothing new. I believe more injustices and more waste to the general public and industry have been perpetrated in the name of the ADA than any other legislation, with the possible exception of the continued insistence on Affirmative action and (supposed but phony)EEO over the last ten years. But we won't go there.

Field trialing is a participant sport and as such, does require a certain amount of athleticism. I would gladly help anyone to enjoy the sport...and I have... but not to the detriment of the other participants and the sport itself. That becomes unfair.

A pro golfer is required to walk the course during a tournament, as I understand it.

You do not see folks in wheelchairs on the field playing halfback in a major league soccer game, on the line of scrimmage as a nose tackle or guard at an NFL Foot ball game or playing center field in major league baseball. Why not??

You do not see the US government putting in ramps and walkways up the slopes of Mount McKinley or across the face of el Capitan to accommodate some disabled person who wants to climb them. Why not??

Off my soapbox.

RayG
AMEN

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by clink83 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:26 am

What a "bleep" thread. This is exactly why the ADA exists, for good or bad. I've read the thread on that ATV guy, and he is a "bleep".
That said:
If you had a veteran that came back from Iraq or Afghanistan with no legs would you really have the guts to tell him that he couldn't participate because he doesnt have enough "athleticism"? How would you feel if some drunk hit you and paralized you and some idiot told you you couldnt trial anymore because you cant ride a horse or walk? What a joke.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by big_fish » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:54 am

Im not disabled just didn't know if you could handle off of atv instead of horse I have only been to 1 horseback trial at our club but I was on a quad but we where planting birds.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by topher40 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:27 am

clink83 wrote:What a "bleep" thread. This is exactly why the ADA exists, for good or bad. I've read the thread on that ATV guy, and he is a "bleep".
That said:
If you had a veteran that came back from Iraq or Afghanistan with no legs would you really have the guts to tell him that he couldn't participate because he doesnt have enough "athleticism"? How would you feel if some drunk hit you and paralized you and some idiot told you you couldnt trial anymore because you cant ride a horse or walk? What a joke.

The short answer is yes I would. My landowners wouldnt allow it and there is nothing I can do about that. That person can always elect to have their dog ran by another handler as this happens all the time. I have been to numerous trials where a guy gets hurt walking on rough terrain and twist's an ankle or falls off a horse has some sort of a medical emergency or comes down with the flu and is unable to handle their own dog. Someone is always willing to lend a hand and handle the dog for them.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by sdoliver » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:46 am

I have started and stopped writing this three times now and have spent about an hour writing this time. I can speak much better than I can write but I hope this makes sense to you guys. Here goes:
I am one of those "disabled" trialers. I suffer from a muscular disease that is causing the muscles of the trunk of my body ie stomach, hips, shoulders, and upper arms to degenerate. A guy doesn't realize how much you use all the muscles in your body when you walk. I could probably mount a horse with the use of some kind of step or bench but if I had to dismount to flush a bird I would not be able to get back on. So far I am still able to ride and drive an ATV. Luckily I am blessed with a good bunch of guys in my club that will volunteer to run Missy for me. She doesn't care who handles her as long as she gets to find birds.I would love to be able to handle her and watch her run a course because she can run like the wind and will hold a bird forever.
I think most guys in my situation would follow what ever rules or guidelines a club would make just for the opportunity to run a brace or two. If that meant running first brace, last brace or even with a bye dog. Give the judge the authority to tell me to slow down or speed up or what ever he thinks makes things fair.
Some people when they are handed these "challenges" get bitter and think they are owed everything but I think for the most part most of us would be overjoyed just to be able to participate.
Any way I thought you might want to get a little perspective from the other side. Thanks for letting me talk and maybe it will help you understand a little better..

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by topher40 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:31 am

SdOliver, I understand your plight very well and I am sorry that has happened. However most venues whether it be private or public ground has the clubs hands tied and will not allow atvs. This is not a club thing rather than more of a property rights argument. I am afraid that some disabled folks (not you) that believe they are owed something could singlehandedly (sp) run off clubs that are willing to put on these events by demanding access to the use of atv's. It is like chopping off your nose despite your face.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:04 am

Ok here goes I have owned GSPS for over 40 yrs I was 27 when I started hunting bird dogs & as healthy as a horse could do anything I wanted all day long.I hunted with friends & my brother once in a while but by myself mostly.
My brother used to say you wear the dogs out & my friends used to call me a walking horse.I could hunt from day light till dark only stopping long enough to eat a sandwitch & drink a soda,hated to quit.I did this 3 or 4 days a wk.
Then in 2005 at 58 I had a TIA (mini stroke) & it's been down hill every since.my feet are numb,I have nerve damage in my legs,ruptured discs & severe shrinkage of the spine.I have what they call drop foot which causes me to drag my toes & trip over everything,I can't walk on a hillside because my ankles will throw me down,I used to be a roofer I can no longer even get on a roof because of my ankles.I can get on a horse using steps & a little help but no way could do it from the ground to get on & off to work birds on a find,even if I could I'd probably fall trying to flush birds.Up until this all happened I could out walk 19 yr olds & did many times the reason I hunted by myself mostly is because no one would go with me after a time or 2 because they be setting in the truck by themselves waiting on me to quit most of the time.

My point is life happens you can't set around pissing & moaning about what you want or would like,no one owes me anything including the Government.We have to deal with the cards we are dealt & not expect others to cater to us.
I can't trial my own dogs because of this,I got into trialing late in life because of raising a family but I still enjoy the people,the dogs, & the competition even if some else has to handle it for me.My kids my sisters & even my wife say I need to
sell my dogs & quit but the day that happens they will be throwing dirt on me.

I wouldn't ride an ATV even it was allowed for the handicapped because that's not the way it's supposed to be!!

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by DGFavor » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:31 pm

There is no rule that says you have to dismount your horse to flush to my knowledge. I have flushed birds and shot many times in trials off my horse - granted, I then jump off, collar the dog and move on in "traditional" fashion but I would see nothing wrong with flushing with the horse then heeling the dog on down course with your horse. This may be more of a wild bird scenario where the birds are going to typically flush a little more cordially than the ring-around-the-rosy chasing of a pen bird trying to cajole it into it's maiden flight. Might be the kind of thing you just tell the judges you have to do up front then go out, play your game and let 'em sort it out. Come on out this way Ted, we'll get you mounted up at the breakaway, watch you get a couple sharptail finds with a good race, get you down at the end then gladly prop you up in the winner's circle if we have to!! :wink: :D

Image

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:54 pm

Doug you know I'd love to but it takes money I don't have.There is nothing I would love more then to come hunt wild birds with you & Rich but it is what it is.
It's very depressing at times not be able to do the things you love to do let alone simple things but like I said that's life.I'm better off then a lot of others so I have no room to complain.

Oh & thanks for the offer it's much appreciated.
Ted

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:26 pm

There is an AKC rule that says you have to dismount, but nothing that I read in the AF-AFTCA guidelines

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by fuzznut » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:38 pm

After 30 yrs of running my own dogs, the time is getting close that I won't be doing much of it anymore. Same story as the others, the mind is willing, the body just doesn't want to cooperate. I can't walk well enough to go the 30 minutes. I can still get on and off the horse, but it is not a pretty sight. It's best left for me to send my dogs out and have them shown to their best advantage.

Several years back my dog and I won our National Amateur Championship. After we ran, and after awards were announced I heard several discussing how I wasted so much time getting on and off the horse that the win was a "gimmee". Those people will never know how badly that hurt, how much it tarnished our accomplishment, and how angry it made me. I did take the time, it was a physical limitation and I did the best I could do.

I love the tradition of our sport, the horses, the galleries, the riding to the front finding a dog standing. I don't think I would take advantage of a ATV to handle my own, not today anyway. Luckily I can ride well enough to watch the dogs perform, just not the on and off stuff.

But, for those who would choose to go that direction.... I would hold no ill will at all. The one thing I have learned in my years with the dogs.. never say never. So, maybe one day you will see me on the back of a ATV or riding a golf cart.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Fun dog » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:13 pm

Maybe you guys could all compromise with a pony cart!! :mrgreen:

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:18 pm

Maybe & god forbid you ever get old & broke down!!

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by nikegundog » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:02 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I think he has been here before Chris anyway I know I have read some of his posts some where.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=31163&hilit=disabilities+act

Jeff Reed, about halfway down the page.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:02 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Doug you know I'd love to but it takes money I don't have.There is nothing I would love more then to come hunt wild birds with you & Rich but it is what it is.
It's very depressing at times not be able to do the things you love to do let alone simple things but like I said that's life.I'm better off then a lot of others so I have no room to complain.

Oh & thanks for the offer it's much appreciated.
Ted
Exactly. I feel the same way. My knee went this year and surgery won't help it. Lots of pain . When you're well you realize really what a difference a day can make.
Last edited by Sharon on Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:35 am

I have only just read this thread. I would love to be able to follow my dogs on an A.T.V. I am still on the right side of 70 but have an incurable heart condition , I need a knee replacement op and I have sciatica ....fortunately not all the time. Until I was in my early 50's I was a very fit man and nothing made me happier than following along behind pointing dogs on a grouse moor. I cannot do that now and I don't compete in trials any more either just in case I conk out somewhere !

I still do all that I can with my dogs but nothing like what I used to be able to do. We have a saying in Scotland that you may have too ....in "proper language !" :lol: ......." Auld age diznae come itsel' ." ......How true that is ! :roll:

Bill T.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Fuzznut,

Belated congratulations on your impressive win, and on behalf of all field trialers I am sorry some ill mannered couths tried to tarnish what should have been a highlight. The only thing exceeding their impoliteness is their lack of knowledge of dog behavior; the quicker you can get in front of them the less likely they are to break. Your physical limitations actually made it harder to win.

A few years ago I was faced with no longer being safe on a horse, after 50+ years in the saddle. My skill on a horse is what led me to trials, first as a scout and only later as a handler. I elected to retire from the sport, sold my best dog, abd brought my FC into retirement with me when he was in his prime.

I miss trials, but do not regret the decision to give it up.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:23 pm

DGFavor wrote:There is no rule that says you have to dismount your horse to flush to my knowledge. I have flushed birds and shot many times in trials off my horse - granted, I then jump off, collar the dog and move on in "traditional" fashion but I would see nothing wrong with flushing with the horse then heeling the dog on down course with your horse. This may be more of a wild bird scenario where the birds are going to typically flush a little more cordially than the ring-around-the-rosy chasing of a pen bird trying to cajole it into it's maiden flight. Might be the kind of thing you just tell the judges you have to do up front then go out, play your game and let 'em sort it out. Come on out this way Ted, we'll get you mounted up at the breakaway, watch you get a couple sharptail finds with a good race, get you down at the end then gladly prop you up in the winner's circle if we have to!! :wink: :D

Image
I believe the dismouting to flush and fire is tradition and not specifically proscribed by the AFTCA Guidelines, there is a provision for a member of the gallery to be designated to flush, if the handler is unable to do so. So I think the AFTCA has the same view as the AKC.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:04 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I think he has been here before Chris anyway I know I have read some of his posts some where.

Folks using the American Disabilities Act as a club to beat other folks into submission is nothing new. I believe more injustices and more waste to the general public and industry have been perpetrated in the name of the ADA than any other legislation, with the possible exception of the continued insistence on Affirmative action and (supposed but phony)EEO over the last ten years. But we won't go there.

Field trialing is a participant sport and as such, does require a certain amount of athleticism. I would gladly help anyone to enjoy the sport...and I have... but not to the detriment of the other participants and the sport itself. That becomes unfair.

A pro golfer is required to walk the course during a tournament, as I understand it.

You do not see folks in wheelchairs on the field playing halfback in a major league soccer game, on the line of scrimmage as a nose tackle or guard at an NFL Foot ball game or playing center field in major league baseball. Why not??

You do not see the US government putting in ramps and walkways up the slopes of Mount McKinley or across the face of el Capitan to accommodate some disabled person who wants to climb them. Why not??

Off my soapbox.

RayG
Glad you got off of it asince you have now given some one the idea of how they are discriminated against.

Ezzy

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by topher40 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:21 pm

I am sorry but I cant seem to make sense of your post Ezzy????????????????

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:13 pm

When you get old/injured some things can't be done anymore. That's a fact of life. If allowances can be made- great. We have blinds for duck hunters in wheelchairs here.
Some things though have to be just a memory. My husband won't be wrestling anymore, and I won't be trialng/horseback riding anymore.,

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by fuzznut » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:45 am

remember back in the day when some clubs held "powderpuff" stakes for the ladies? Maybe we need an "old geezer" stake for us old and infirm.It could still be 30 minutes... just only go for about 100 yds! We could get style points for getting on and off the horse, for gracefully hitting the ground, and extra points if you can get up without help.

Just kidding of course. I totally understand those who are truly disabled wanting to participate and run their dogs. On the grounds which allow the use of a bike, or golf cart.... go for it and best of luck.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by big_fish » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:54 am

fuzznut wrote:remember back in the day when some clubs held "powderpuff" stakes for the ladies? Maybe we need an "old geezer" stake for us old and infirm.It could still be 30 minutes... just only go for about 100 yds! We could get style points for getting on and off the horse, for gracefully hitting the ground, and extra points if you can get up without help.

Just kidding of course. I totally understand those who are truly disabled wanting to participate and run their dogs. On the grounds which allow the use of a bike, or golf cart.... go for it and best of luck.
That's funny Im sorry but it is funny. on another note fuzznut a older guy told me at a trial that if their talking about you or making a fuss about you it is because your winning. When you loose nobody has anything to say about you their off to the next winner.

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by Sharon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:50 pm

fuzznut wrote:remember back in the day when some clubs held "powderpuff" stakes for the ladies? Maybe we need an "old geezer" stake for us old and infirm.It could still be 30 minutes... just only go for about 100 yds! We could get style points for getting on and off the horse, for gracefully hitting the ground, and extra points if you can get up without help.

Just kidding of course. I totally understand those who are truly disabled wanting to participate and run their dogs. On the grounds which allow the use of a bike, or golf cart.... go for it and best of luck.
...................

Hilarious!!

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Re: atvs and trials

Post by fuzznut » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:51 pm

not to worry... I've got thick skin after all these years. And the important folks thought the dog won.. the judges!

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