Dog food article

[markj]

OK so now I run around this here forum looking at all the locked "what do you feed" threads and see a bunck of folks or maybe one with multiple logins posting all this crap about dog food. WTH? Is that the only topic this fella has to offer the foum? And corn is bad for dogs? Pistol whip that person until they stop.....

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

That' s about it Mark!

[buckshot1]

OK so now I run around this here forum looking at all the locked "what do you feed" threads and see a bunck of folks or maybe one with multiple logins posting all this crap about dog food. WTH? Is that the only topic this fella has to offer the foum? And corn is bad for dogs? Pistol whip that person until they stop.....

LOL. Well said, markj. I bet most of these people who are working themselves into a lather criticizing what others feed their dogs weigh 300 pounds and are stuffing their faces with chicken mcnuggets while they type.

[ACooper]

LOL. Well said, markj. I bet most of these people who are working themselves into a lather criticizing what others feed their dogs weigh 300 pounds and are stuffing their faces with chicken mcnuggets while they type.

Bahaha now that is funny! I was thinking the same thing the other day.

[walkos5]

So don't list any scientific evidence. How about just a source for your info? Just post some sources for your info.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/Res ... 047113.htm

that's a good one!

Though my post was directed more at Walkos.

Yes, that is a good one, and thanks Susie.

[walkos5]

So don't list any scientific evidence. How about just a source for your info? Just post some sources for your info. Let us make our own decision based on our reading of your sources instead of you telling all of us how stupid we are. Plain ol'e opinion does not help anyone make an informed decision for themselves.

2 very good pieces worth reading. Are they complete scientific studies? No, but certainly cite many sources from teh scientific community. Surely there are some Raw blogs like this.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/01/repeat ... ot-wolves/

There are no "Feeling" involved in this one.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw ... -you-barf/

Now you can pick them apart and show me why and where he is wrong by backing up your reasoning with your sources. That's how a discussion works and helps others who may be reading this.

Angus, I never ever called anyone stupid on this forum anywhere because don't believe in counter productive childish criticism like some on here. You can view at least half a dozen articles under dogs digestive system vs wolfs and there are scientists that will tell us that there is so little difference between the two and what our domestic dogs should be eating for optimal health and longevity. The best line that made sense to me was that if you released domestic dogs into the wild they would form a pack and would become wild dogs and what they would eat would be small animals. Why? Instincts.

[walkos5]

I have to hand it to Angus, at least he is willing to look at science and try to put real evidence out there so that the open minded can make informed decisions on what is best for their dogs as far as nutrition goes. I wonder how many will except real science though?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

All the Science I need is standing in my Kennels & your science is on the internet!! Same ole BS. :roll:

[walkos5]

All the Science I need is standing in my Kennels & your science is on the internet!! Same ole BS. :roll:

Change can be difficult but there's always hope!

[markj]

and are stuffing their faces with chicken mcnuggets while they type.

Well now, you really dont wanta know whats in them nuggets, I know you dont wanta know cause I know whats in them nuggets.....


Science to tell me how to feed my dogs? Brother you have been sooooo misled in yer life. First thing to realize is dogs are scavengers as well as hunters, means they can eat a whole lot of things wont hurt them. Corn wont hurt any animal eats it. Thing to remember is to feed other stuff along with the corn.

I say go work on a for for awhile, notice them animals and what they do. And quit reading food articles on the internets,they are what I call propaganda meant to get you to think their way. Looks like they got ya too.

[RayGubernat]

All the Science I need is standing in my Kennels & your science is on the internet!! Same ole BS. :roll:

Change can be difficult but there's always hope!

And if it is on the internet..it must be true. My boyfriend is a French model. Yeah I saw the commercial.

All that BS from Blue Buffalo and those phony dogfood ratings websites are just that... hype and BS to play on the emotions and take advantage of folks who want to do the best for their animals. Yes the websites I have seen are bogus with no decent science behind them, just some person's biased opinion.

And yes almost the whole "Natural" and "organic" thing is a gigantic con job being foisted on the public. All you have to do is to read the fine print to know what kind of hose job the public is getting.

You want to feed your dog a healthy diet. Wonderful. So do I.

I get my dog's healthy diet out of a bag labeled Blue Seal Performance. Some others get their dog's healthy diet out of a bag labeled Purina Pro Plan or Iams or Fromm's or Diamond or Royal Canin. We can PROVE, with scientific evidence that the diet is healthy, nutritious, balanced and complete. We can prove, with empirical evidence, such as field trial wins, you know, those silly little ribbons, that these foods allow our dogs to perform at the very highest levels of the sport.

Done.

RayG

[Bounty_Hunter]

All the Science I need is standing in my Kennels & your science is on the internet!! Same ole BS. :roll:

Change can be difficult but there's always hope!

And if it is on the internet..it must be true. My boyfriend is a French model. Yeah I saw the commercial.

All that BS from Blue Buffalo and those phony dogfood ratings websites are just that... hype and BS to play on the emotions and take advantage of folks who want to do the best for their animals. Yes the websites I have seen are bogus with no decent science behind them, just some person's biased opinion.

And yes almost the whole "Natural" and "organic" thing is a gigantic con job being foisted on the public. All you have to do is to read the fine print to know what kind of hose job the public is getting.



You want to feed your dog a healthy diet. Wonderful. So do I.

I get my dog's healthy diet out of a bag labeled Blue Seal Performance. Some others get their dog's healthy diet out of a bag labeled Purina Pro Plan or Iams or Fromm's or Diamond or Royal Canin. We can PROVE, with scientific evidence that the diet is healthy, nutritious, balanced and complete. We can prove, with empirical evidence, such as field trial wins, you know, those silly little ribbons, that these foods allow our dogs to perform at the very highest levels of the sport.

Done.

RayG

I don't know guys, there's just so much info out there that says otherwise that I think a more natural diet would be the way to go. Even the pet food industry can't deny that they use plenty of preservatives in their processed foods and we know that processed foods are not good for us humans, don't we?



http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359


http://www.thedogplace.org/NUTRITION/Pr ... ews094.asp

[slistoe]

I don't know guys, there's just so much info out there that says otherwise that I think a more natural diet would be the way to go. Even the pet food industry can't deny that they use plenty of preservatives in their processed foods and we know that processed foods are not good for us humans, don't we?

If it helps you sleep at night.

You do realize that the problem with the processed human meats is in the nitrates used, which is not an issue with pet food at all.

If you are worried about BHT/BHA in your pet food because of all the hype from the "anti" industry, do you realize the extent to which those are in your human food? Even if you eat nothing but "fresh" vegetables from the grocer - even the organic variety - you will be consuming foods preserved with BHT. These preservatives are far more prevalent in human food than they are in pet food, yet there is very little information surrounding them in regards to human consumption. Why is that? The fear mongering, agenda driven groups haven't found anything to gain through it, that's why.

[Bounty_Hunter]

If it helps you sleep at night.You do realize that the problem with the processed human meats is in the nitrates used, which is not an issue with pet food at all.If you are worried about BHT/BHA in your pet food because of all the hype from the "anti" industry, do you realize the extent to which those are in your human food? Even if you eat nothing but "fresh" vegetables from the grocer - even the organic variety - you will be consuming foods preserved with BHT. These preservatives are far more prevalent in human food than they are in pet food, yet there is very little information surrounding them in regards to human consumption. Why is that? The fear mongering, agenda driven groups haven't found anything to gain through it, that's why.

I try and stay away from processed foods as much as possible. I also agree there are preservatives in many human foods but not all fresh veggies contain them and many people have resorted to growing their own vegetables during favorable growing seasons. Also the levels allowed in human grade foods are much lower then in pet foods.
You do bring up a good point though, and many people are buying more organic meats and foods regardless of price. Its within our own power to try to eliminate as much of these preservatives from our diet but our dogs have no choice if fed a commercial diet. You did leave out a few other problem preservatives from our pets food too.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... ource.aspx

http://peterdobias.com/community/2012/0 ... -raw-diet/

[Razor]

I used to buy in to the feed debate until I heard Usain Bolt ate 100's of chicken McNuggets during the Olympics. Feed what ever works for you and forget about at the advertising crap.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

BH young man come back & tell us all how much better off your dog was after he is gone until then you have nothing to show people that has been at this for 40 or 50 yrs & owned more dogs then you probably ever will & have proven their performance under some ones eyes other then their owners.The internet doesn't raise,breed,hunt,trial,& feed dogs we do!!

[millerms06]

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know if anyone feeds their dogs consistently throughout the year what they hunt or fish and grows their own vegetables organically? We can put to bed this whole argument if someone does just that, and has had respectable results in pointing/flushing dog trials/competitions. If there is no one out there that fits this description, I really would like to see these conversations stop as they are rather pointless. I do not know about anyone else, but I would find it to be refreshing to bear witness someone that has done the above, rather than hearing hypotheticals all the time from one side.

Speaking of Bear, I might consider feeding my dogs some bear or moose meat if I take up the offer to hunt up in Ontario next year. Since I do not see my wife having much of it, I can share some meat with my dogs. But even so, bear stew is delicious!!

That being said, I strongly believe my dogs would not be different from the experiment, outside of drooling more excessively and wagging their tails faster than normal!

I could go on with the jokes, but I think I made enough of them already.

[slistoe]

If it helps you sleep at night.You do realize that the problem with the processed human meats is in the nitrates used, which is not an issue with pet food at all.If you are worried about BHT/BHA in your pet food because of all the hype from the "anti" industry, do you realize the extent to which those are in your human food? Even if you eat nothing but "fresh" vegetables from the grocer - even the organic variety - you will be consuming foods preserved with BHT. These preservatives are far more prevalent in human food than they are in pet food, yet there is very little information surrounding them in regards to human consumption. Why is that? The fear mongering, agenda driven groups haven't found anything to gain through it, that's why.

I try and stay away from processed foods as much as possible. I also agree there are preservatives in many human foods but not all fresh veggies contain them and many people have resorted to growing their own vegetables during favorable growing seasons. Also the levels allowed in human grade foods are much lower then in pet foods.
You do bring up a good point though, and many people are buying more organic meats and foods regardless of price. Its within our own power to try to eliminate as much of these preservatives from our diet but our dogs have no choice if fed a commercial diet. You did leave out a few other problem preservatives from our pets food too.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... ource.aspx

http://peterdobias.com/community/2012/0 ... -raw-diet/

I didn't leave off anything - I wasn't trying to make a list of every fear mongering pimp website there is. (I am subscribed to Mercola's news feed because it is interesting to see what he is trying to sell - I dislike fear mongers more than snake oil salesmen. At least one of them is selling hope.)
You are 20 years late to the ethoxyquin scare - it was that long ago that the early beginnings of the targeted campaigns caused the major companies to change their practice and remove it from their labelled products. It is still the safest way to bring fatty fish products to market.
How is it that you know which vegetables have BHT in the shipping packaging and containers? You can believe that the "organic" producers that are draining Mexican water aquifers and running private airstrips to get product across the continent to market at exorbitant prices will be using it when they aren't required to disclose it.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know if anyone feeds their dogs consistently throughout the year what they hunt or fish and grows their own vegetables organically? We can put to bed this whole argument if someone does just that, and has had respectable results in pointing/flushing dog trials/competitions. If there is no one out there that fits this description, I really would like to see these conversations stop as they are rather pointless. I do not know about anyone else, but I would find it to be refreshing to bear witness someone that has done the above, rather than hearing hypotheticals all the time from one side.

Speaking of Bear, I might consider feeding my dogs some bear or moose meat if I take up the offer to hunt up in Ontario next year. Since I do not see my wife having much of it, I can share some meat with my dogs. But even so, bear stew is delicious!!

That being said, I strongly believe my dogs would not be different from the experiment, outside of drooling more excessively and wagging their tails faster than normal!

I could go on with the jokes, but I think I made enough of them already.

Not sure where you are going with this as the preservatives are only part of the equation. The fact that dogs should not be constantly eating dry food and the quality of nutrients is the bigger concern in my opinion. If you all want to over look the fact that there is an even larger movement in the veterinary community, many with no agenda but to educate dog owners on what's best for their dogs then that's up to you. I just think its wrong to believe that a kibble diet will bring the same health results as a natural fed dog, and experience in training dogs or even having won field trials does not mean your dogs are getting the best nutrition. Nutrition is a hot topic in society today and we are always finding new ways to eat better and that usually includes putting more natural foods into our diet so why would dogs be any different?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

You WIN you can feed YOUR DOG raw us losers will feed kibble!! :roll:

How many times do you have to be told FEED YOUR DOG WHATEVER PLEASES YOU!! We don't care!

[millerms06]

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know if anyone feeds their dogs consistently throughout the year what they hunt or fish and grows their own vegetables organically? We can put to bed this whole argument if someone does just that, and has had respectable results in pointing/flushing dog trials/competitions. If there is no one out there that fits this description, I really would like to see these conversations stop as they are rather pointless. I do not know about anyone else, but I would find it to be refreshing to bear witness someone that has done the above, rather than hearing hypotheticals all the time from one side.

Not sure where you are going with this as the preservatives are only part of the equation. The fact that dogs should not be constantly eating dry food and the quality of nutrients is the bigger concern in my opinion. If you all want to over look the fact that there is an even larger movement in the veterinary community, many with no agenda but to educate dog owners on what's best for their dogs then that's up to you. I just think its wrong to believe that a kibble diet will bring the same health results as a natural fed dog, and experience in training dogs or even having won field trials does not mean your dogs are getting the best nutrition. Nutrition is a hot topic in society today and we are always finding new ways to eat better and that usually includes putting more natural foods into our diet so why would dogs be any different?

My argument, which actually answered your conjecture, is that until someone consistently feeds their dog ingredients that they produce outside of the grocery store, you are not feeding your dog the "raw diet" you profess.

You are also making a case to people that test and trial their dogs. You should care whether or not your information equals to their experiences and success.

Yes this a free country, people can feed their dogs whatever they choose. But there are way more intelligent people than me on here that you need to convince. Honestly, I would like this kind of debate if there was something to debate about. But like so many before you, the information you supply is unconvincing and lacks anything that is of interest to talk about.

If you would like to make "fluff" arguments, it might be best suited for a different forum...

[shags]

Not sure where you are going with this as the preservatives are only part of the equation. The fact that dogs should not be constantly eating dry food and the quality of nutrients is the bigger concern in my opinion. If you all want to over look the fact that there is an even larger movement in the veterinary community, many with no agenda but to educate dog owners on what's best for their dogs then that's up to you. I just think its wrong to believe that a kibble diet will bring the same health results as a natural fed dog, and experience in training dogs or even having won field trials does not mean your dogs are getting the best nutrition. Nutrition is a hot topic in society today and we are always finding new ways to eat better and that usually includes putting more natural foods into our diet so why would dogs be any different?

There's also a large movement in the veterinary community to spay and neuter every dog that walks in the door, despite research that shows it isn't necessary and can even be harmful. Remember that there are vets who work in the real world, and those who watch the real world go by from windows in their ivory towers.

I've seen dogs enjoy eating roadkill, gut piles, horse apples, deer poop, cats, and the occasional rodent. Do you advocate allowing your dog to consume these things? After all, it's all natural.

Feed what you prefer and what works for your animals, but please refrain from proselytizing about what you consider best for all dogs.

[Del Lolo]

You are 20 years late to the ethoxyquin scare - it was that long ago that the early beginnings of the targeted campaigns caused the major companies to change their practice and remove it from their labelled products. It is still the safest way to bring fatty fish products to market.

If ethoxyquin is applied BEFORE it gets to the manufacturer, it does not have to be listed in the ingredients.
Are you saying that ethoxyquin is better than freezing ?

.

[slistoe]

You are 20 years late to the ethoxyquin scare - it was that long ago that the early beginnings of the targeted campaigns caused the major companies to change their practice and remove it from their labelled products. It is still the safest way to bring fatty fish products to market.

If ethoxyquin is applied BEFORE it gets to the manufacturer, it does not have to be listed in the ingredients.
Are you saying that ethoxyquin is better than freezing ?

.

Are you suggesting that all dry dog food should be shipped and stored frozen?

[Bounty_Hunter]

My argument, which actually answered your conjecture, is that until someone consistently feeds their dog ingredients that they produce outside of the grocery store, you are not feeding your dog the "raw diet" you profess.You are also making a case to people that test and trial their dogs. You should care whether or not your information equals to their experiences and success. Yes this a free country, people can feed their dogs whatever they choose. But there are way more intelligent people than me on here that you need to convince. Honestly, I would like this kind of debate if there was something to debate about. But like so many before you, the information you supply is unconvincing and lacks anything that is of interest to talk about.If you would like to make "fluff" arguments, it might be best suited for a different forum...

You are right I don't want fluff arguments and if you feel there is nothing to debate then why did you get involved in the first place? I have listed veterinary professionals with 30 years of experience that support feeding a raw diet that have put their reputation on the line to say so. They say feeding raw is much healthier then feeding dry kibble and all your side offers is there is no proof feeding raw is better then commercial kibble. Even the vets that oppose feeding raw say the same thing, "no proof" not kibble is better, or dogs that come through their office seem to look much healthier on a kibble diet, or they have seen sick dogs make a remarkable recovery when switched to a kibble diet, just no proof so we won't endorse it. I also agree that if you think any or all of the information I have provided lacks anything of interest to you then you should move on to a subject or a post that does. I personally find it much more enjoyable to talk about things that interest me and that's why I am trying to debate this issue and uncover any of the information that anyone has to offer, and I pay special attention when it comes from veterinary professionals and science. Thanks for your opinion anyway!

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

You are evidently not getting any information from this site so why don't you move on to a site that you are getting some info from.We are tired of all your BS!! :roll:

[Bounty_Hunter]

You are evidently not getting any information from this site so why don't you move on to a site that you are getting some info from.We are tired of all your BS!! :roll:

That's not true, I have gotten lots of helpful information from this forum and I am not the only one interested in information that others have to offer on dog nutrition. Would you like a few recipes I use, I don't mind sharing?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I know better & maybe some day you will gain some knowledge from others experience & not just mumbo/jumbo from the internet.

[Bounty_Hunter]

There's also a large movement in the veterinary community to spay and neuter every dog that walks in the door, despite research that shows it isn't necessary and can even be harmful. Remember that there are vets who work in the real world, and those who watch the real world go by from windows in their ivory towers.I've seen dogs enjoy eating roadkill, gut piles, horse apples, deer poop, cats, and the occasional rodent. Do you advocate allowing your dog to consume these things? After all, it's all natural. Feed what you prefer and what works for your animals, but please refrain from proselytizing about what you consider best for all dogs.

I would have to assume that the vets in the ivory towers would be the ones against a raw or more natural diet too. As for what dogs will eat, my dog ate most of those things you mention when he was a puppy probably out of curiosity but I feed him well so he rarely eats unknown foods or animals unless I give it to him. I am not pushing anyone to feed what I do, I am just putting information out there for those who are interested in discussing canine nutrition. Are you interested?

[ezzy333]

The problem is the subject has been cuss and discussed over and over.

99% of the people on here feed a kibble of some sort
1% feed a raw diet.
The 99% people don't care what anyone else feeds
The 1% not only care what they feed but also spend a lot of time telling the 99% why they are feeding their dog better than the 99% are
We can continue this discussion forever and neither side will change their minds since the 99% see that their dogs are performing in all fields of dogdom at the highest levels while the 1% base their opinion on what 1% of the vets are telling them.
Occasionally the 1% use the natural diet as evidence but they do not really know what the natural diet is but what gets too everyone is the 1% are young people who have little experience telling the older members who have tried many different types of feed and have settled on what has worked best for them that they really don't know what they are doing.

My suggestion is to go back and read in the archives and forget trying to justify another thread that says the same things the past thread have said.

Ezzy

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Thank you ezzy but I doubt it will do any good like you said before they just WON"T LISTEN.

[slistoe]

There's also a large movement in the veterinary community to spay and neuter every dog that walks in the door, despite research that shows it isn't necessary and can even be harmful. Remember that there are vets who work in the real world, and those who watch the real world go by from windows in their ivory towers.I've seen dogs enjoy eating roadkill, gut piles, horse apples, deer poop, cats, and the occasional rodent. Do you advocate allowing your dog to consume these things? After all, it's all natural. Feed what you prefer and what works for your animals, but please refrain from proselytizing about what you consider best for all dogs.

I would have to assume that the vets in the ivory towers would be the ones against a raw or more natural diet too. As for what dogs will eat, my dog ate most of those things you mention when he was a puppy probably out of curiosity but I feed him well so he rarely eats unknown foods or animals unless I give it to him. I am not pushing anyone to feed what I do, I am just putting information out there for those who are interested in discussing canine nutrition. Are you interested?

Your dog only ate those things as a puppy? You could gets lots of converts to raw food if this were true!!!

Your assumptions are wrong.
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/raw-do ... -and-risks

Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, PhD, headed an evaluation of raw dog food diets published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Association in 2001. She cautions pet owners against them, saying that many dog owners are choosing raw diets based on online myths and scare tactics about commercial pet food.

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/raw-food-diet

But if your pet’s on a back-to-the-basics diet and doing great, who would argue with results?
It turns out that any board certified veterinary nutritionist would.

[slistoe]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw ... [quote]The argument that dogs are designed by their evolutionary history to eat raw meat based diets is riddled with errors and fallacies and ignores the impact of tens of thousands of years of domestication and cohabitation with humans on the physiology of our canine friends. The accusations that commercial dog foods are nutritionally inadequate or unsafe are not supported by any objective or scientific evidence, only anecdotes, intuition, and conspiracy theories. There is, in contrast, significant evidence that commercial dog foods are nutritious and healthy and that they have contributed to greater longevity and reduced nutritional and infectious disease morbidity of dogs fed these diets.
The benefits promised by advocates of BARF diets for dogs are numerous. Greater health, less disease, better quality of life, and much more. Dr. Billinghurst’s web site even claims, “Eating bones for a dog is a joyous experience. It is so enjoyed by dogs that it actually of itself boosts their immune system.” However, there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support these claims. BARF proponents have no shortage of opinions and anecdotes to demonstrate the benefits of their diets, but they have a severe shortage of data.

The risks of raw meat based diets, however, are well-documented. Homemade diets and commercial BARF diets are often demonstrable unbalanced and have severe nutritional deficiencies or excesses.16-18 Dogs have been shown to acquire and shed parasitic organisms and potentially lethal infectious diseases associated with raw meat, including pathogenic strains of E. coli and Salmonella.25-27 Many other pathogens have been identified in raw diets or raw meat ingredients, and these represent a risk not only to the dogs fed these diets but to their owners, particularly children and people with compromised immune systems.29-30 The bones often included in such diets can cause fractured teeth and gastrointestinal diseases, including obstructed or perforated intestines, and the FDA recently warned pet owners against feeding bones to their canine companions.

So with a dodgy theory behind it, no sound evidence of benefits, and clear risks, there is no justification for recommending raw meat based diets for dogs.[/quote]
http://dogtime.com/raw-food-diet-dangers-dogs-aaha.html

Link Welborn, DVM and former AAHA president, says, "While raw food diets are becoming increasingly popular among pet owners, there is a growing body of information showing that these diets pose a health risk not only for the pets that consume them but to their owners as well."