Gun Dog Forum

I do not know if this has happened in a pointing dog field trial or not, but I would like some opinions on it.

Dog handler is not in sight of dog, but dog is on point. Bird flushes. Dog knows the handler is not in eyesight and starts barking.

What would a judge do with this scenario: the dog barking?

I have seen this happen in hunting situations and I am a little baffled how it would play out in a field trial.

Anyone who judged, dog handled, or know specifics to what happened to a dog who did this I am looking for your answers.

If handler is absent and judge sees it will probably be picked up, if staunch and seen by judge handler can be summoned and dog shot over, the positive. This activity will not make the dog or the handler any money, just something that does not look good.

Does that answer ur question?

Pepper

Dog barking at bird = a dog that would be better suited for hunt tests

millerms06 wrote:Dog handler is not in sight of dog, ... dog is on point. Bird flushes. Dog ... starts barking. What would a judge do with this scenario: the dog barking?

If I am judging and sitting on my horse and see exactly what you stated...

1. I sit there until the handler (or scout) shows up and ask him to fire over the dog. If all in order tell him to continue on. In my book I will make notes regarding the barking incident, and how the dog looked/responded after the flush. Wait to see if we have other dogs make it around clean that could beat him.

2. If the dog barks and goes with the bird, I ask marshal to either collar the dog or find handler/scout to pick the dog up.

IMO the barking does not warrant pickup unless he moves with bird, but it does leave a bad impression on me.

PntrRookie wrote:

millerms06 wrote:Dog handler is not in sight of dog, ... dog is on point. Bird flushes. Dog ... starts barking. What would a judge do with this scenario: the dog barking?

If I am judging and sitting on my horse and see exactly what you stated...

1. I sit there until the handler (or scout) shows up and ask him to fire over the dog. If all in order tell him to continue on. In my book I will make notes regarding the barking incident, and how the dog looked/responded after the flush. Wait to see if we have other dogs make it around clean that could beat him.

2. If the dog barks and goes with the bird, I ask marshal to either collar the dog or find handler/scout to pick the dog up.

IMO the barking does not warrant pickup unless he moves with bird, but it does leave a bad impression on me.

No sense it typing the same thing twice.
What he said.

I don't think it say's if the bird was seen flushing. I know of no rule that say's a dog can't bark. I see them barking all the time as they break away, do you pick them up? If the dog was not seen flushing the bird, it's done nothing wrong. If on the other hand if it did take out the bird and no one saw it, continue on and the dog may show it's true colors. I would not use standing and barking as an excuse to pick up a dog. My old Teah used to bark all the time waiting to be sent on a retrieve, but she never ever broke. She also was only hunted, that was a dog I should have trialed.

I have no problem with the barking, it shows intelligence and cooperation, but somthing caused the bird to flush, and that I care about. I would evaluate why.

As long as the dog does not move his feet after the flush, I don't much care what he looks like. Just don't understand the need for style after the flush.

I have never experienced a dog barking on point.

How does the barking show cooperation?

Didn't Riggins White Knight do something like this in the National Championship? This was before my time, but I think I remember a story about him barking on point or barking after the birds left.

By helping his handler find him kinda like dogs baying on a tree or beagle running a rabbit.

New postby Neil » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:17 pm

I have no problem with the barking, it shows intelligence and cooperation, but somthing caused the bird to flush, and that I care about. I would evaluate why.

As long as the dog does not move his feet after the flush, I don't much care what he looks like. Just don't understand the need for style after the flush.

I have never experienced a dog barking on point.


What is required re style after the flush, what are judges looking for after the flush and shot and before the dog is collared and moved forward? Assume everything is in order up to that point.
mm

I am by no means a trialer. I am a hunter. I don't understand why you would want your dog so far out in front of you that you couldn't see it. I like my dogs to work with/for me, not hunting out on their own.

Just don't understand the need for style after the flush.

When judging and watching the entire piece of work, I try to watch it all.

mm wrote:What is required re style after the flush, what are judges looking for after the flush and shot and before the dog is collared and moved forward? Assume everything is in order up to that point. mm

Some dogs stay high and intense after the flush and watch the bird fly away. Which to me still shows the dog is LOVING that find. Others let down, tail drops, starts wagging as if to say..."OK I am done let's go". Others even start walking towards the handler which in some trials is grounds for pick up. That is why I do like to see what goes on after the flush.

During training you can build intensity, after the flush/shot, by popping multiple birds after the first one is gone.

PntrRookie wrote:

Just don't understand the need for style after the flush.

When judging and watching the entire piece of work, I try to watch it all.

mm wrote:What is required re style after the flush, what are judges looking for after the flush and shot and before the dog is collared and moved forward? Assume everything is in order up to that point. mm

Some dogs stay high and intense after the flush and watch the bird fly away. Which to me still shows the dog is LOVING that find. Others let down, tail drops, starts wagging as if to say..."OK I am done let's go". Others even start walking towards the handler which in some trials is grounds for pick up. That is why I do like to see what goes on after the flush.

During training you can build intensity, after the flush/shot, by popping multiple birds after the first one is gone.

So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

It all depends on the judges some like to see a dog high & tight until collared by the handler others don't care what the dog looks like after the flush as long as it is steady until collared.

John I have heard using that to make the final call.

BirdCrazy wrote:I am by no means a trialer. I am a hunter. I don't understand why you would want your dog so far out in front of you that you couldn't see it. I like my dogs to work with/for me, not hunting out on their own.

Why post in a trial topic if you don't .... Trial or have experience with it? Kinda like me telling you your dogs being in sight have no need to be there because you will kick up the birds about the same time your boot lickers establish point....

Most hunters I know don't want their dog in sight or under their feet,that's not what pointing dogs are for unless they are not broke & you want to shoot every bird your dog runs up.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Most hunters I know don't want their dog in sight or under their feet,that's not what pointing dogs are for unless they are not broke & you want to shoot every bird your dog runs up.

My dogs are broke. Wild pheasant often don't hold for me to walk half a mile to get there. I don't consider ~100 yards under my feet.

I saw a friend's dog get tore up by a coyote when it ran out of sight. I have also had one of my dogs point a coyote. Glad he wasn't out of sight.

If your dog makes you happy that's all that matters but a dog that is 100 yards off is not always in sight atleast not in the cover I'm used to.

Oh & another things hunting & trialing are 2 different things & most dogs that do both know the difference.It's called intelligence.

Birdcrazy what a lot of hunters call broke doen't mean broke it the same sense as F Trial dogs.

Quailcommando wrote:So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

If that was the ONLY thing that separated them...yes most definitely.

PntrRookie wrote:

Quailcommando wrote:So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

If that was the ONLY thing that separated them...yes most definitely.

There's the major problem with judging. No dog runs a perfect brace, there is always a flaw here and there. Picking a dog based on if it barked or it was high and tight after the flush Is the easy way out. Competitor's deserve more than that!

PntrRookie wrote:

Quailcommando wrote:So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

If that was the ONLY thing that separated them...yes most definitely.

Good to know,never even gave it a thought. Always looked for the step or flinch at gun shot.

John Chris & I have talked about this very thing.Chris's words were I don't care what the dog looks like after the flush & as far as I know that hasn't changed but there are a few handlers that train for it.

Quailcommando wrote:

PntrRookie wrote:

Just don't understand the need for style after the flush.

When judging and watching the entire piece of work, I try to watch it all.

mm wrote:What is required re style after the flush, what are judges looking for after the flush and shot and before the dog is collared and moved forward? Assume everything is in order up to that point. mm

Some dogs stay high and intense after the flush and watch the bird fly away. Which to me still shows the dog is LOVING that find. Others let down, tail drops, starts wagging as if to say..."OK I am done let's go". Others even start walking towards the handler which in some trials is grounds for pick up. That is why I do like to see what goes on after the flush.

During training you can build intensity, after the flush/shot, by popping multiple birds after the first one is gone.

So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

They are judged on the entire effort. If all else is more or less equal then a minor part of the performance where a difference is evident will separate the winner from the loser. Sometimes it can be a minor personal aesthetic point that can be the separator, but the duty of the judge is to make a separation.

DonF wrote:

PntrRookie wrote:

Quailcommando wrote:So if your juding and have two even dogs but one had more style after the flush you would give him the edge?

If that was the ONLY thing that separated them...yes most definitely.

There's the major problem with judging. No dog runs a perfect brace, there is always a flaw here and there. Picking a dog based on if it barked or it was high and tight after the flush Is the easy way out. Competitor's deserve more than that!

Don did you read his question and see the bolded part of my answer? Of course there are going to be other flaws. I never said there weren't He asked if there were two EVEN dogs, I said if that was the ONLY thing that separated them...I answered THAT question...the obvious part missing is that it usually NEVER comes down to ONE thing... :roll: You have never put a dog under my judicial saddle so how would you know if I don't give the competitor's all they deserve...really from roughly 75 typed characters, you got that? "Easy way out" - Thanks for your vote of confidence.

I will agree with the separation but very seldom things are REALLY that close & equal.JMO

I will say that I have to admit it does look good just as the 12:00 tail looks good but I hear all the time the Tail don't point birds.

My pup was thrown out for being gone 6-7 min in a gun dog stake, to the front just running a shooting dog brace. So to be thrown out for a dog barking after a bird takes off wouldn't be too rough , I think I could handle
It.

Don did you read his question and see the bolded part of my answer? Of course there are going to be other flaws. I never said there weren't He asked if there were two EVEN dogs, I said if that was the ONLY thing that separated them...I answered THAT question...the obvious part missing is that it usually NEVER comes down to ONE thing... :roll: You have never put a dog under my judicial saddle so how would you know if I don't give the competitor's all they deserve...really from roughly 75 typed characters, you got that? "Easy way out" - Thanks for your vote of confidence.[/quote]

Did not mean to heat things up just put it like that wondering if you would separate the two dogs for style after flush and nothing else. I realize you want have two dogs run a perfect brace unless it's my two dogs.

Wow, really interesting information guys! I saw this in the field this season and it really made me scratch my head as to what would happen in a field trial if this sort of thing happened. It was an anomoly that I am glad I asked the question.

rinker wrote:Didn't Riggins White Knight do something like this in the National Championship? This was before my time, but I think I remember a story about him barking on point or barking after the birds left.

Maybe someone knows more of the backstory?

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:By helping his handler find him kinda like dogs baying on a tree or beagle running a rabbit.

Psychologically this is the only way I could come to terms with the incident.

DonF wrote:I don't think it say's if the bird was seen flushing. I know of no rule that say's a dog can't bark. I see them barking all the time as they break away, do you pick them up? If the dog was not seen flushing the bird, it's done nothing wrong. If on the other hand if it did take out the bird and no one saw it, continue on and the dog may show it's true colors. I would not use standing and barking as an excuse to pick up a dog. My old Teah used to bark all the time waiting to be sent on a retrieve, but she never ever broke. She also was only hunted, that was a dog I should have trialed.

Cool story about your dog.

Had to go back and re-read the original question. I didn't say you've taken the easy way but far to many judges do. This was not aimed at anything you said or anything anyone else said here. It is based on watching trials as they are run and things other judges have said to me that I was judging with.

It is my belief that every aspect I judge in a dog have a direct hunting application. There are reasons for range, cooperation, use of wind, hitting objectives, intelligence, class, style, steady, honoring, stop to flush, etc. All contribute to a great dog. Most are in the extreme and not easily understood by the walking hunter, but there is a direct correlation.

As others have mentioned, barking on point could be considered intelligence and cooperation.

But I cannot understand how staying high after the flush contributes in anyway.

I cannot remember any reference to it in rules, guidelines, or books.

It is pretty, and that is why some train for it, but I don't consider it.

BTW Hoyle mentions in his book, "THE WHITE KNIGHT STORY", Bud as he was called, often barked in anticipation after the flush, wanting to get on to the next covey. I don't recall him saying he barked on point. I had one and have seen many yelp on break away, always found it to be a competitive thing.

Neil

Dog handler is not in sight of dog, but dog is on point. Bird flushes. Dog knows the handler is not in eyesight and starts barking.

What would a judge do with this scenario:

Dog points, bird flushes, dog stands and barks...does not sound like any kind of infraction to me. If handler and/or scout not readily available to return to the dog (and I would give handler/scout "decent" chance/time to return - no, I don't know how long that is ), I would have someone else, if available, fire over the dog, collar it then, depending, either wait for handler or move on. How it plays out for that dog in the grand scheme of the trial, well...it depends!

My Trixie gets pretty antsy to get on with the show after flush of the bird - if you dawdle around she'll let ya' know!

Personally for me, the work's over after flush of the bird - not gonna knock a dog for relaxing a bit as handler comes to collar it off. That said, it is "a show" and extra polish certainly is not a bad thing.

Kelly's Talkin' Smak well after flush of the bird, Sean takin' his time comin' back to him - if you got it, flaunt it! Sean is awesome at putting the polish on his dogs like that:

SK is a show off...
Has a 10 year old daughter that can ride like the wind, handle dogs and put a gooseneck horse trailer anywhere it needs to be

rinker wrote:Didn't Riggins White Knight do something like this in the National Championship? This was before my time, but I think I remember a story about him barking on point or barking after the birds left.

No it was Red water rex.

rinker wrote:Didn't Riggins White Knight do something like this in the National Championship? This was before my time, but I think I remember a story about him barking on point or barking after the birds left.

No it was Red water rex who would whine and bark on point while hoyle attempted to flush

ymepointer wrote:

rinker wrote:Didn't Riggins White Knight do something like this in the National Championship? This was before my time, but I think I remember a story about him barking on point or barking after the birds left.

No it was Red water rex who would whine and bark on point while hoyle attempted to flush

So the truth comes out. Sounds like it wasn't that smart but annoying.

Rex won the National CH, Continental twice and was a 9x AA Ch (all open). Good thing people that know good dog flesh didn't find him annoying.

cmc274 wrote:Rex won the National CH, Continental twice and was a 9x AA Ch (all open). Good thing people that know good dog flesh didn't find him annoying.

Get the independent opinion of folks that have "been around"...and by around I mean more than running in 1/2 hour circles on libbies in So. Cal for a couple years ...RWR best bird dog of all time. Probably entitles him to have been a little annoying if he wanted to be!

Figured if you wanted a dog to bark you would allow them to do it around your trailer, house etc. I hunt more then you think on those pesky valley quail. Not too many hour stakes being run in Southern California unless you own a Brittany for that one stake they have usually.

Never said "topic dog" would not run or point but barking when there isn't a threat or visitor that is unwelcome is pretty annoying in my book. Didn't think I was not allowed an opinion, but thanks for letting me know.

barking when there isn't a threat or visitor that is unwelcome is pretty annoying in my book.

Lassie wouldn't have been half the dog in my opinion if he/she (?) only barked at threats or unwelcome visitors!!

Dog remaining steady and barking upon flight of the birds with no one around = Precursor to the modern beeper collar/tracking aid.

Not to change the subject...but what kind of kibble was Lassie on? Looks very healthy in that photo...

Chukar12 wrote:Not to change the subject...but what kind of kibble was Lassie on? Looks very healthy in that photo...

Which one? How many Lassie's were there?