Surrogator opinions

[Jubilee]

Now for the record I don't have a surrogator. But, I'm looking for some opinions/thoughts on the Quail Surrogator (too much time at work for my mind to wander and ponder). Now I'm Not questioning the actual box, but the idea of it. I know how the concept works, and I know there have been studies/researches done on their effectiveness, all with mixed reviews depending on what results you are looking for and expecting.

I have a "for instance" in my mind and would like some pro's and con's for it. Let's just say you have control on a section of land that has a couple of small established conveys (15-18 birds per covey). They have been there for years, definitely not as many birds/coveys as there use to be on this place, but the land still has hunt-able birds, so it isn't so much a matter of habitat or cover for the birds. Would a surrogator be a good investment/tool in helping or "jump-starting" an increase in quail numbers over the long term on this land.

My thoughts lean towards yes over the long term. The short term I think would be an improvement as there would be more birds on the property, at least for the first year. Quail obviously whistle back together, so some of the truly "wild" birds would get mixed together with the "New" birds once they are released and have the summer months to mill about. So the potential would be there for new pairing of birds in the future breeding seasons. Is this Good/Bad/Indifferent? Would the surrogated birds when mated with a wild bird actually stay with it's chicks? Can the decline in the quail population be linked to the idea that the "bloodlines" have become staled out?

[RoostersMom]

Absolutely NOT. Pen-reared birds are inferior, genetically speaking. I guess if your intent is to hope they'll reproduce (since 90% of them are dead within the first month - not much left to reproduce....ohh, and since pen-reared birds won't sit on a nest and hatch a clutch - the reproduction is nonexistent) - then you're deluding yourself. IF...and that's one big huge IF, but if they do happen to reproduce, then you're effectively dumbing down your wild bird population. Pen reared hens leave the nest immediately after the first bird hatches, leaving the rest of the chicks to die.

Are all of your pen-reared birds disease free, so the wild ones don't catch anything and die first?

No real upside to surrogators or any release of pen-reared birds with the intent of re-stocking. Dog training and shooting them immediately - YES. Re-stocking with the intent to increase your native birds = very, very bad idea.

You can use the search engine above to see some actual papers I've referenced about pen-reared birds.

[birdogg42]

If you already have wild birds then your best and easiest bet would be to do the work to improve the existing habitat. I.e edge feathering and creating down tree structures. It's not hard to do. Chainsaw and four wheeler or truck is all you need.

Mike

[ckirsch]

Believe it or not, we have very few pheasants out here on the west end of South Dakota. An acquaintance of mine owns 480 acres just east of Rapid City, where there hadn't been a wild pheasant for a long, long time, if ever. He put his ground into CRP, planted something like 40,000 trees and shrubs in shelter belts, and then purchased a Surrogator. Three years later, he has a viable population of pheasants. He saw several batches of chicks each of the past two springs, is actually hunting a few roosters each fall, and attributes his success to the Surrogator.

Several other members of our local Pheasants Forever board also released pen-raised birds on isolated ranches where there was some suitable cover, but no existing populations, and several years later, the ranchers report growing numbers of birds.

Raising or releasing birds with the intention of establishing reproducing populations is indeed an uphill battle, but it's clearly worked in some situations. It obviously worked a century ago when Chinese birds were released…..

[RoostersMom]

^^^He said Quail.^^^ The surrogators have proven to have zero success with quail long-term. Quail are not pheasant.

[Donnytpburge]

I built one 2 years ago.

I turned loose about( 90)5 week old quail 2 years ago. On 20 acres!

There are 5 coveys that I know of within a mile
Of the release site!

People in my community are reporting quail
All the time. And are talking about how they are making a comeback.

The dogs & I ran into a big covey Friday afternoon, 20 or more birds!

We picked up 5


I plan on doing it again this summer.



Db

[RoostersMom]

[quote="ckirsch"]Believe it or not, we have very few pheasants out here on the west end of South Dakota. An acquaintance of mine owns 480 acres just east of Rapid City, where there hadn't been a wild pheasant for a long, long time, if ever. He put his ground into CRP, planted something like 40,000 trees and shrubs in shelter belts, and then purchased a Surrogator. Three years later, he has a viable population of pheasants.
quote]

I sure would attribute a bunch of his success to putting in CRP and planting like 40,000 trees - that would likely create good pheasant habitat where there wasn't habitat before. Not saying a few of the pheasants didn't make it, likely they did - but when you build good habitat, the bird numbers naturally increase. He would likely have had birds on his place after three years with just the habitat work.

[Neil]

, and since pen-reared birds won't sit on a nest and hatch a clutch - the reproduction is nonexistent) - then you're deluding yourself. IF...and that's one big huge IF, but if they do happen to reproduce, then you're effectively dumbing down your wild bird population. Pen reared hens leave the nest immediately after the first bird hatches, leaving the rest of the chicks to die.

.

Got to wonder, which is it; do they fail to nest or abandon the nest? Seems like the pen birds are tainted in every way!

Nearly every shooting preserves/plantation in the Southeast releases quail without such disastrous results.

I know several people that tried the Suragators without success and sold them. The good news is there is an active resale market.

The best method to achieve your goal is to use Johnny Houses and anchor the birds, moving and repeating.

[RoostersMom]

Mississippi State University research shows that IF they do have a nest, they literally will walk off and leave the hatching chicks in the nest. They suck as parents.

[Jubilee]

Ok, well again, I don't have a surrogator. I just have too much free time at work sometimes for my mind to think of different things or ideas. This is just one of my thoughts or hair brained ideas, typically my ideas never go any further than the initial thought and day dream in my head. As far as trying to improve the area... the land has stayed virtually unchanged for 20 years, so I can't see making changes to the land would yield much improvement. There are fallen trees and buck brush around the land, plum thickets and excellent cover throughout. The land is not hunted in excess, (maybe 2-3 times a year) the coveys are not shot down to nothing every year, easily 10-12 birds per covey at the end of the season. I know "back in the day" you could see 6-7 coveys on this place, now there are 2, and have been 2 for at least the last 7 years, always in the same general place, and approximately the same number of birds. The landscape to me looks the same as it did back in the "glory days". Predator control is done, not much one can do about avian predators, but coyotes, raccoons, and such are attempted to be kept in check. This has been done for years.

Do you think that the surrogator works better for establishing pheasant than quail or are the results about the same? You always here of people saying this worked for me or this ruined it. I can fully understand and appreciate the idea of introducing "disease free" birds, and that is a very valid concern.

Rooster, I will be looking for some of the papers that you have referenced, I always am looking to read and learn.

[Meller]

Missouri has been building habitat for years and I haven't seen an increase in birds on their areas, habitat with no birds does not produce birds!

[ckirsch]

Roostersmom;

While the OP specified quail, you used the generic term "birds", hence my comments regarding pheasants. The fellow PF board member who created habitat and had subsequent success with released birds is in an area where there weren't many, if any, wild birds for fifty to sixty miles in any direction. Tough for me to believe that wild pheasants could navigate their way across fifty miles of badlands and open prairie to find a 480-acre oasis. The same guy released some Surrogator-raised quail in 2012, and still had quail showing up once in a while this summer. He's not sure if they're survivors of the original release, or progeny of those birds, but they've obviously made it through a tough South Dakota winter. This isn't quail country, so their chances would seem to be slim, but at least a few have made it over a year on their own. The habitat is key, but in this case, released birds seem to be taking a foothold.

You're painting with pretty broad strokes. I'll agree that most release programs fail to establish reproducing populations, but there are instances where success has been reached.

[DonF]

I have never had a small covey turned loose here that has survive. But out on Sauvie's Island near Portland they had a few reproduce in the wild years ago. They are all gone now but I suspect that the non setting nature of pen raised birds are the cause of that. A few actually did sit the nest but the off spring wouldn't so they died out. keep in mind that we have no wild bob white in this state. What would happen over the long term if you had wild birds integrate with pen raised birds? That I don't have an answer for but, if it's done without protecting and/or developing the cover, I strongly suspect it will fail.

Years ago I trapped some valley quail and some wild huns and put them in with my bob whites. Made the bob whites spooky as h*ll! Every time I'd go into the pen, they would all explode. Had great bob white's from that little experiment. I've never had a surrogator but have had a couple johnny house's. I think that both will do pretty much the same thing. They keep the birds in the area with food and water and they protect them from predators. Without doubt there is different style's but the goal is pretty much the same, keep the birds around and protect them from predator's.

[RoostersMom]

I don't disagree that there could be isolated instances of birds actually making it - I just read the research, and it's all bad for pen-reared birds. Unbiased research (ie, research conducted by biologists, not guys selling the surrogators) shows that pen-reared birds just don't make it. Further research on pen-reared birds mated with wild birds show that pen reared birds have no maternal instinct to take care of the chicks. And when you do habitat improvements, you generally will see an increase in birds.

I hunted opening day in NW Missouri on conservation ground that has been actively edge feathered and burned a lot. 4 coveys and one Rooster up in less than 4 hours of hunting. Will hunt on some private ground this week (which is unusual for me) and I bet we see at least a covey per hour. The guy has been managing for quail with edge feathering and grassland work.

I'm just a wildlife biologist - so I see the need for habitat more than anything else, since it helps all the other species as well. Rabbits are up on the areas that I'm seeing managed for quail as well. I'm not a silver bullet kind of person, it takes hard work and a lot of sweat equity to get quail established. Winters and wet springs are not your friend, but take a look at this link and you can see that areas of managed habitat are faring better than areas that have no management.

http://mdc.mo.gov/blogs/more-quail/take ... quail-back

[jimbo&rooster]

I don't know about surrogators, but I will say when my wife and I moved back to her family farm her father gave me 100acres of his farm to do as I pleased for my dogs. I convinced him to enroll it in CRP and here we are 3yrs later. to date we have released 0 quail other than 20 or less training birds.

Before we planted this ground in CRP it was farmed ditch to ditch with a couple small clean tree rows. the 100acres supported about 10-15quail in 1-2 small coveys that more or less lived in the tree rows. Now I can guarantee to move at least 1 covey of birds on any given day and have moved as many as 5 on this 100 acres and most of the coveys are between 15-30 birds and I ran up a covey of chicks this spring that must have had 40 in it this summer. i am a huge supporter of habitat over release for birds. I also recommend predator control as best you can, coons, possums, feral cats, and skunks are at the top of my list, Un fortunately we have a ton of hawks, falcons and the occasional eagle that will work their way through also. Not really much you can do about that.

Jim

[DonF]

Jim, I have noticed on all the CRP land out here there is no undercover. Take out what was planted and your left with dirt. Perhaps its simply the crop's planted there? I was at a huge ranch that trialer's use out here last fall and the whole course was CRP. I'd heard of wild birds there but in three days of horseback thirling not one wild bird was moved that I heard about. This was horseback with continuous course's, lot of ground! Seem's to me I'd heard years ago that the first ten years of CRP produced little to no undercover so there was talk to extend it another ten years.

[Jubilee]

I appreciate all the input and opinions so far, I'm no where near a wildlife biologist. I have lots of theories as to why the quail numbers have declined over the years, and most are linked to the fact in changing in farming practices, more efficient equipment, less habitat reserved for the preservation of game in general. Seems like every farmer has a dozer these days. Hedge rows and native grass waterways vanish every day it seems. But it's not just the quail numbers that have declined, around here we don't see the monster groups of meadowlarks that also use to be around. Rabbits are a lot thinner in populations as well. Prairie chickens are nonexistent here now. But in some areas we have seen somewhat of a upswing in quail numbers.

It's impossible to bring back wild quail populations from zero. But in the cases were there are some quail and the numbers seem unchanged year after year, I was just looking/thinking of different options of trying to increase the numbers in a specific area. Thanks again for everyone's opinion and input.

[jimbo&rooster]

Don, I don't doubt your experience. We spent a lot of time researching our options for grasses and legumes and flowers and talked to a couple biologists. Our CRP is in its 3rd year and getting thick but it has defined natural edges as well as cover and all important fence rows and tree lines. It looks different than a lot of the CRP I've been in. Hopefully I can get some food plots in it this spring and burn some of it.

Jim

[Anaconda Pintler]

the Surrogators work great, been using them on a 5000 acre ranch and also on a 1200 acre farm here in GA, DO NOT believe the bs about how they wont reproduce, come here in the spring and I will show you leg banded birds that have big full clutches of chicks each and every spring they work but I also believe it begins with habitat

[Frankug]

Used the surrogators on my parents farm in Alabama and found no evidence that they worked. "Tall Timbers" was doing a research study on them. We banded all surrogator birds and harvested next to zero. We sold surrogators. The evidence for pheasant is really good to my knowledge. The standard thinking on quail is if you have wild birds then do not introduce inferior "liberated" birds. Work on habitat.

[Donnytpburge]

We pointed a wild covey 100 yards from my old release
Site this afternoon( 20 bird covey)

It was tough hunting bit we picked up 2 singles after
The covey rise!

Db

[ultracarry]

the Surrogators work great, been using them on a 5000 acre ranch and also on a 1200 acre farm here in GA, DO NOT believe the bs about how they wont reproduce, come here in the spring and I will show you leg banded birds that have big full clutches of chicks each and every spring they work but I also believe it begins with habitat

Is that an invite for a hunt?

[hi-tailyn]

Does it make any difference where day old chicks are bought from?
The TX quail research guys have done trans location of wild quail to see if they will set up and reproduce in new locations.
Are there any quail breeders that promote wild quail eggs, or even 1st-2nd gen wild quail?
I have bought some quail from local guy that got eggs from a specific breeder up north. They were smaller than our normal pen raised birds. They never walked or ran from the flush. If any pressure was put on them they just exploded from where they were sitting. They were the best birds I have bought and used in my JH's. The quail guy said he wouldn't raise them again. He lost his shirt on them. He bought 2K and only ended up with 600 at maturity. He said they would fly so hard and hit the side walls, they killed themselves.
Has anyone ever bought wild cross birds?

[duckn66]

There are lots and lots of articles written about this very subject, a lot of research has been done.

X amount of acres will only support X amount of quail. Seems to me I read somewhere that it takes 20 acres per covey.

Most everything I have read states that creating good habitat is best. You can release all the quail you want but if you don't have the proper habitat they aren't going to make it on that property.

[hi-tailyn]

I posted on another post about the possibility of using wild Blues, Valley, Merns, etc. quail that a few upland bird farms raise and sell.

Has anyone tried these wild day old chicks or hatched eggs and used for training in their surrogators?

Seems like they would have a better chance and still have survival instincts of the wild birds. If you provide the habitat, they should survive, and reproduce and be there on your property as long as there is habitat that they need.

Is there anyone using wild bobs to lay eggs for sale to surrogator users, or dog training?

[ezzy333]

A friend of mine has built the small barrel type Johnny Houses for several years and used them In Wisconsin. He has had pretty good results getting some quail started in several areas, The percent that make it is not good but to think that all have loss all of their ability to reproduce in a few months of captivity is rather hard to believe. I know not many pheasants survive for long or the areas arounf the hunting clubs would be loaded and it just hasn't happened. We have had spring released hens hatch a brood but have little way of knowing just how many of those young survive.

Ezzy

[buckmaster]

We ran a one on a farm with zero existing populations of wild pheasants and quail...although we did 2 runs of quail...we are well north of their range and did not expect them to survive beyond the year..it was an exercise for dog training. The one important commonality between pheasants and quail in a system like this is sourcing....garbage in, garbage out. If you buy inbred chicks from a supplier that sells exclusively to a put and take market...I think your chances of success are near zero. We were fortunate that we had a good supplier, where we picked up chicks and had them in the system within a few hours.
We ran a few cycles with pheasant over the late spring and summer. My buddy didn't see any on the farm, or in the cover we planted..and gave up by september. The following spring we had a late snowstorm...and were driving the quad on the edge of a field where we had planted some pheasants forever seed mix...blammo...birds came shooting out of the cover. It has been two years now since we ran the first cycles and their are still a few birds around the property...and the cover now somewhat marginal.
I think with pheasants at least...you need to give it two years or so to judge success....start by doing the basic math with very conservative survival numbers...and you will see it needs some time. If you have a surviving base after 2 or 3 years, the curve should start to trend upward exponentially.