Retrive and Backing

[Meller]

With all the discussion on Force Fetch and retrieving, do you think that breeding for natural retrieve and natural backing, has lost it's importance or is it still a factor when considering a breeding , along with run ,hips, eyes, conformation, and so on?

[CDN_Cocker]

Natural retrieving is a must

[RoostersMom]

I would rather buy a dog from a breeder that considers that as a part of the total package. I don't breed - but do support good breeders. My most recent pup is a real retrieving nut (I think it's the Elhew influence) and he has backed several times during training sessions with other dogs - he was 4 months old at the training clinic.

[SetterNut]

For me a back is much more important than a retrieve. I hunt with multiple dogs down at the same time and backing is a must.
As long as they hunt dead, it meets my needs. That is not to say that I don't like having a retrieve.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

For the most part the line of dogs I have are natural retrievers,my FC female Star has never had the first day of FF.My avatar dog Storm just needs his retrieving points to finish & the 1 retrieving stake he placed in it took
3 shots to kill the bird & he handled it with no problem & made the retrieve no FF here either,he is also a natural backing dog,Star on the other hand did need some work on backing.
The natural retrieve I believe came from my foundation female Ginger Though Ace (foundation sire) was also a natural when he had the chance.
I like to let my dogs develop their natural abilities before much training other then here is done.JMO & the way it works here.

[gonehuntin']

They are as important as ever. You may be able to make a dog retrieve, but you can't force them to like it. Nothing worse than watching a dog perform that doesn't enjoy it's job.

[ultracarry]

I wouldn't say a dog can be bred for a great natural retrieve and natural backing. It's more of exposure and how you bring the pup along to the point of training. You can get several different outcomes with dogs and some great ones can turn out like garbage because of how the handler goes about doing things.

If you want a dog to back naturally and retrieve naturally with no exposure or training I think you may be expecting too much.

People think too much instead if doing. Just come up with your own way because 99% will ask for advice and never follow it, pay for training and not follow through, complain about the breeder because they didn't get a miracle dog.... etc.

I'll breed whatever dogs I think would create a dog I could live with, has a good gait, points with intensity, and looks like a million bucks doing it. I would rather have a dog live five killer years and be a great dog then one that lives 20 years with no vet bills and has perfect health but is a "ok" dog in the field.

Backing or not, retrieving or not, it's all a part of the process of training .

[Moulders Farm]

I have sold several puppys very few are buying the dog to field trail it , most of them wont to see the parents work as I would .If the breerder had to put on 2or 3 e collars to get the parents to work or forse it I would Not be intersted in a puppy The puppys at 8 wks should all ready be interested in birds a natural point retreve & backing dog will make the new owner a lot prouder than one that has a high tail & runs 1/2 mile away cause most of those new owners are not looking to have to pay a trainer thousands of dallers to be able to go out for a week end just hunting with there dog . then bring it back into the family . that is what people ask me first how does my puppys do with the family then how hard are they to train to poing & retreve & how far do they hunt away from me . The same questions I would ask

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I think a pup that has good prey drive, points with intensity and is run with other dogs generally back naturally.

[polmaise]

Backing or not, retrieving or not, it's all a part of the process of training .

[Del Lolo]

For me a back is much more important than a retrieve. I hunt with multiple dogs down at the same time and backing is a must.
As long as they hunt dead, it meets my needs. That is not to say that I don't like having a retrieve.

All well and good until the bird goes down across (or in) a river or pond........ Or until it brings back that slightly wounded bird -- drops it at your feet and it flies off.

IMO, if a dog doesn't retrieve to hand, it's not a truly finished hunting dog.
.

[SetterNut]

For me a back is much more important than a retrieve. I hunt with multiple dogs down at the same time and backing is a must.
As long as they hunt dead, it meets my needs. That is not to say that I don't like having a retrieve.

All well and good until the bird goes down across (or in) a river or pond........ Or until it brings back that slightly wounded bird -- drops it at your feet and it flies off.

IMO, if a dog doesn't retrieve to hand, it's not a truly finished hunting dog.
.

Not a lot of water to worry about in the Flinthills of KS.
But a dog that will not back on its own, can't really be hunted in a brace. In the big areas you are better off with multiple dogs.
Like I said, for ME backing is much more important than retrieving. But I will not turn my nose up to a good retrieve.

[Ms. Cage]

If you want a dog to back naturally and retrieve naturally with no exposure or training I think you may be expecting too much.

Over a course of many years I have seen many, many natural backers and retrievers. For example, take a 6 week old pup, toss a dummy, pup runs out picks up dummy and hustles back with a few atta boys, you have natural retrieve. 10 , 12 week old pup sees a dog relieving themselve slams hard into a back with a ton of intensity , that's a natural back . Good breeders look to compliment the 2 they pair and strengthen one weakness with the others strength. Yes, retrieving and backing are inherent but can also be taught. I'll take the natural any day.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Moulders Farm here is one of those worthless run off no good around the house Field Trial dogs.FC Von Zeppelins Distant Star you just can't trust her! :roll:

[rinker]

Natural backing is important to me, natural retrieving is not.

[JKP]

I don't think FF is just about retrieving. I expect a dog will show a natural propensity to retrieve and the natural cooperation to pick up and come back to me. FF does a whole lot more besides iron out the wrinkles in delivery, etc.

[rkappes]

I think both are important and that you can breed for both. I’d definitely rather have a dog be natural than forced to do something…whether it be retrieving, backing, range, etc…

[Ruffshooter]

Breeding for strong natural retrieving overlaps all desire wants. With strong desire in all aspects of the dog it is generally easier to train the dog to higher levels. IM0
FF is just a method for molding the retrieve to your wants and expectations and to create a proper clean, finished retrieve. It also lays the ground work for higher levels of retrieve, Marks, blinds & hand signals, obedience, etc.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

JKP guess I never had a dog that needed ironed because in over 40 yrs never FF the first one!!

[ACooper]

IMO natural retrieve is more about cooperation than anything else.

[JKP]

JKP guess I never had a dog that needed ironed because in over 40 yrs never FF the first one!!

Well...your dogs must be better than everyone else's.

Sorry...but IMhO...folks who think backing is more important than retrieving are more worried about "sport" than fair chase. Everything that is shot or wounded should come to hand. If it doesn't, we're just shooting...not hunting.
I expect a dog to be a driven retriever. If we go afield more concerned about backing, then we deserve whatever the "Greenies" call us.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Never said my dogs were better but just never had to FF one !! They retrieve birds on their own now bumpers are a different story but I don't hunt or shoot bumpers!

[birddogger]

Sorry...but IMhO...folks who think backing is more important than retrieving are more worried about "sport" than fair chase. Everything that is shot or wounded should come to hand. If it doesn't, we're just shooting...not hunting.
I expect a dog to be a driven retriever. If we go afield more concerned about backing, then we deserve whatever the "Greenies" call us.

WOW!! :roll:

Charlie

[SetterNut]

Sorry...but IMhO...folks who think backing is more important than retrieving are more worried about "sport" than fair chase. Everything that is shot or wounded should come to hand. If it doesn't, we're just shooting...not hunting.
I expect a dog to be a driven retriever. If we go afield more concerned about backing, then we deserve whatever the "Greenies" call us.

Don't know where this is coming from. My dogs hunt dead so we don't loose birds. And because my dogs back I can hunt them together and not have some dog blowing up another dogs point, I have two dogs hunting dead. I just walk over and take the bird from them.

[Grange]

A dog that retrieves is great and is very important to me.


But if a hunting dog doesn't retrieve it isn't the end of the world because I could rely on my retriever who will retrieve pretty much anything I send her after.


A dog that doesn't back could cost me a chance at bagging a bird.

[DonF]

Both are important to me. To bring it out naturally though I think you need to start playing it young. I find it odd how people will give a pup a bird to maul to make it birds but wait on retrieving until well down the road. Force breaking is so popular anymore I doubt that all that many breeder's know if their pup's are naturals or not. You want a pup the retrieve naturally, start very young with it as a game. Don't use a bird or bird wing, just something the pup will chase and pick up.

[Fun dog]

Any time your dog does something naturally that you want it to do it makes the whole training sequence easier.