Littermate syndrome prevention.
- arutch
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 am
- Location: Dallas Texas, Hunt West Texas
Littermate syndrome prevention.
I'm getting two lab puppies in two weeks they are my girlfriends labs puppies and I have already bonded very close with them since the day they were born. Is litter ate syndrome preventable I have a very large house, enough time, and really want to be successful. I would really not like any negative comments. Can it be done and tips for success. and if you have done it any advice. I can crate them on different floors, feed them separate, play with them separate, and let them play together a certain amount of time a day. I just want to be successful.
- RoostersMom
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1754
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: North Central Missouri
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
You can be successful, but it's still hard. With the pups I had, I kept them apart totally except for an hour a day that they were allowed to play together. Fed separately, played with separately and trained separately. A good friend of mine bought two littermates and he later read about littermate syndrome - he ended up moving one dog to the basement and taking the dogs out for training and playtime separately. Dogs can and WILL bond with one another before they bond with the person - if you don't care about that, then just let them hang together and entertain each other. If you'd rather have a dog bonded to you and working with you, then I'd suggest paying attention to the information you're researching on littermate syndrome. I have had pups that were so bonded after 8 months that they got separation anxiety when the other dog had to go to the vet. Screaming, crying, peeing the crate - unstable behavior. That can be prevented, and the best way is by almost complete separation until they're about a year old.
I've dealt with 4 cases of littermate syndrome - one with my own two puppies before I learned any better. It can be a serious problem if you're the "average" dog owner. If you're an experienced owner/trainer and used to handling high-energy sporting breeds and providing for their needs, you can successfully raise two pups in a home together - but separation is the key.
If you've googled littermate syndrome, you see the problems that are possible with young puppies raised together. Severe aggression issues (that was a problem with two pointers I fostered - and pointers really aren't that aggressive) - where one dog is always the submissive one and the other is always the aggressive one can happen when pups are raised closely together.
I guess I'd ask "why do I want two same-aged dogs?" I really have learned that spacing the dogs out a few years gives you more time to individually bond and train with each of the dogs. Jumping into two young, high-energy dogs at the same time is realistically going to result in less time spent with each one individually. Waiting and getting a second dog in a year or two will prevent that. It's a more "fair" way to give the time and attention to a young dog, IMO. If you're with one puppy, the other one will need to be restrained/kenneled/crated. If you have unlimited time and are experienced with hunting dogs - then you'll likely do fine with two, the literature I've read says no more than an hour together a day.
I've dealt with 4 cases of littermate syndrome - one with my own two puppies before I learned any better. It can be a serious problem if you're the "average" dog owner. If you're an experienced owner/trainer and used to handling high-energy sporting breeds and providing for their needs, you can successfully raise two pups in a home together - but separation is the key.
If you've googled littermate syndrome, you see the problems that are possible with young puppies raised together. Severe aggression issues (that was a problem with two pointers I fostered - and pointers really aren't that aggressive) - where one dog is always the submissive one and the other is always the aggressive one can happen when pups are raised closely together.
I guess I'd ask "why do I want two same-aged dogs?" I really have learned that spacing the dogs out a few years gives you more time to individually bond and train with each of the dogs. Jumping into two young, high-energy dogs at the same time is realistically going to result in less time spent with each one individually. Waiting and getting a second dog in a year or two will prevent that. It's a more "fair" way to give the time and attention to a young dog, IMO. If you're with one puppy, the other one will need to be restrained/kenneled/crated. If you have unlimited time and are experienced with hunting dogs - then you'll likely do fine with two, the literature I've read says no more than an hour together a day.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
If you establish yourself as pack leader from day 1, litter mates are no different than other dogs living under the same roof.
- RoostersMom
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1754
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: North Central Missouri
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Some reading that might help:
http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm
http://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com ... -syndrome/
paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/littermate-syndrome/
http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm
http://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com ... -syndrome/
paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/littermate-syndrome/
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I raised two littermates in the house together. Crated them seperately but they played together when outside. After the weather warmed up and I started working with them they each went to seperate kennels next to each other outside and I took them out seperately and worked them and still do. I knew about the littermate syndrome at the time and this was my first time ever with littermates. I feel like I dodged a bullet and got very lucky or did something right, most likely got lucky.
I would NEVER do it again especially if they were going to be house dogs their entire life. I wouldn't have done it this time except one was thrown in as a package deal.
Roostersmom I feel is right on the money with that post. I would wait several years before getting another pup if it were me.
I would NEVER do it again especially if they were going to be house dogs their entire life. I wouldn't have done it this time except one was thrown in as a package deal.
Roostersmom I feel is right on the money with that post. I would wait several years before getting another pup if it were me.
- Hoosierdaddy
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:31 am
- Location: N/W Indiana
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I got my two Britts on the same day from the same litter.Would i do it again..... Never. However littermate syndrome or whatever was not and has not been an issue.When i read about it i was very concerned. I made an all out effort to get these dogs around as many other dogs and people as possible.Crated them in seperate rooms.
The dogs are now about 15 months old and are fine.Do they like when i take one hunting and the other stays home.No. But they get over it quickly.They have two distinct personalities and are normal in every way.
I would not get two pups at the same time again,because i had forgotten how much work and lost sleep one pup can be let alone two.
When i hunt them together my male is way out to the front and has to be reminded to check in.My little female stays close and checks in frequently all by herself.
Good Luck,and catch up on your sleep now you are going to need it!
The dogs are now about 15 months old and are fine.Do they like when i take one hunting and the other stays home.No. But they get over it quickly.They have two distinct personalities and are normal in every way.
I would not get two pups at the same time again,because i had forgotten how much work and lost sleep one pup can be let alone two.
When i hunt them together my male is way out to the front and has to be reminded to check in.My little female stays close and checks in frequently all by herself.
Good Luck,and catch up on your sleep now you are going to need it!
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I, and many field trial breeders, have kept whole litters until 18 months or so with no promlems. Many keep 50 or more pups in a large puppy pen until they select the best, most National Champions are raised that way.
I don't see a problem with the OP's plan
I don't see a problem with the OP's plan
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I have seen posts like this before talking about litter mate syndrome. I always had the same thought as Neil. When I am starting out with a puppy, I always start with two and some times three or more. For the first year or so of a puppies life I am just running him and exposing him to birds. It is no additional effort to do this with two or three puppies than it is with one. When they are started like this they also tend to start backing each other at an early age. I'm thinking that this must be a greater issue with house dogs.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I have two littermates they are 8 months old. I have them in separate kennels but they are next to each other. They come out of the kennel for one on one time with me several times a day and I run them in the field separate. The only problem is when one guy is out the other screams and barks like he is getting killed. The other day a lady from down the street came over because she though the dog was hurt or something. I just let them fuss and don't say anything but it does not seem to be letting up. Is there something I can do for this?
mm
mm
- arutch
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 am
- Location: Dallas Texas, Hunt West Texas
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
dont have the kennels next to one another, they are having separation anxiety.mm wrote:I I just let them fuss and don't say anything but it does not seem to be letting up. Is there something I can do for this?
mm
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Those are the only kennels I have and they are built in and attached to the garage.
mm
mm
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
arutch wrote:dont have the kennels next to one another, they are having separation anxiety.mm wrote:I I just let them fuss and don't say anything but it does not seem to be letting up. Is there something I can do for this?
mm
I disagree, they just want to be out with the other dogs. My dogs go crazy if I take one or two out of the kennels and leave the others behind.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
That's what I thought as I see this at trials when one guy leaves the string the others go nuts. My guys are very loud and I ignore them but the neighbors hear it and have asked what's going on. I was hoping it would stop after a while. Well only 5 months until they head out to the trainer and no one cares who barks there.
mm
mm
-
- Rank: 2X Champion
- Posts: 499
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:33 pm
- Location: Western Colorado
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
There is a fairly simple cure to this problem. Use a chain gang and the figure 8.Elkhunter wrote:arutch wrote:dont have the kennels next to one another, they are having separation anxiety.mm wrote:I I just let them fuss and don't say anything but it does not seem to be letting up. Is there something I can do for this?
mm
I disagree, they just want to be out with the other dogs. My dogs go crazy if I take one or two out of the kennels and leave the others behind.
See www.huntsmith.com
Nate
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
We kept 2 pups from our first litter, then added another that was 6 weeks younger (she was 14 weeks old when she arrived, so they were 20 weeks old), along with their sire & dam, and 2 other dogs (11 yrs old at the time and 5 yrs old). They are all house dogs.
All 3 of the youngsters have very distinct personalities. No one gets upset when they're separated from each other. When only one of the youngsters is home (we have 2 down south for winter camp right now), she misses the activity level another young dog allows her, but we've seen no adverse effects of "littermate syndrome".
Would I do it again? Lets just say I wouldn't go out of my way to have a bunch of puppies in the house at the same time, but that's more a training/keeping an eye on everyone thing.
All 3 of the youngsters have very distinct personalities. No one gets upset when they're separated from each other. When only one of the youngsters is home (we have 2 down south for winter camp right now), she misses the activity level another young dog allows her, but we've seen no adverse effects of "littermate syndrome".
Would I do it again? Lets just say I wouldn't go out of my way to have a bunch of puppies in the house at the same time, but that's more a training/keeping an eye on everyone thing.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
All I know about it is what I read several years ago that the Seeing Eye group had never had a pup qualify for further train9ing when littermates were raised together. They did have some if they were from different litters but they were much more likely to qualify when raised by themselves.
Ezzy
Ezzy
- RoostersMom
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1754
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: North Central Missouri
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Ezzy,
Littermate syndrome is why the seeing eye foundation no longer allows littermates (or same age pups) to be raised together. What you said is exactly correct, if two pups were raised together, one would ALWAYS fail the testing - that's why there is a rule in place now to prevent multiple pups being in one household. The OP says he and his dad will raise the pups separately (he's 16 now I think) - I think he's aware of what needs to be done to mitigate the negative impacts. For the puppies' sakes, I hope he takes it seriously.
Elsa
Littermate syndrome is why the seeing eye foundation no longer allows littermates (or same age pups) to be raised together. What you said is exactly correct, if two pups were raised together, one would ALWAYS fail the testing - that's why there is a rule in place now to prevent multiple pups being in one household. The OP says he and his dad will raise the pups separately (he's 16 now I think) - I think he's aware of what needs to be done to mitigate the negative impacts. For the puppies' sakes, I hope he takes it seriously.
Elsa
- arutch
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 am
- Location: Dallas Texas, Hunt West Texas
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
It will be taken very seriously.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Were I to raise and train seeing eye dogs, I might pay some attention to their experiences.
But sence we are talking gun dogs, I think the experiences of those that raise and start National Champions more germane.
Like nearly all syndromes, it is speculation.
What is the seeing eye dog failure rate if raised seperately?
Besides the OP is asking about labs.
But sence we are talking gun dogs, I think the experiences of those that raise and start National Champions more germane.
Like nearly all syndromes, it is speculation.
What is the seeing eye dog failure rate if raised seperately?
Besides the OP is asking about labs.
- arutch
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 am
- Location: Dallas Texas, Hunt West Texas
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
What do you mean by that? I have nothing to worry about? I'm not worrying anyway just curiousNeil wrote:
Besides the OP is asking about labs.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I disagree, they just want to be out with the other dogs. My dogs go crazy if I take one or two out of the kennels and leave the others behind.[/quote]
There is a fairly simple cure to this problem. Use a chain gang and the figure 8.
See http://www.huntsmith.com
Nate[/quote]
Its when they are in my backyard, I leave two behind and take to for the afternoon they are not too happy. Dont bother me though, they only bark for a bit.
There is a fairly simple cure to this problem. Use a chain gang and the figure 8.
See http://www.huntsmith.com
Nate[/quote]
Its when they are in my backyard, I leave two behind and take to for the afternoon they are not too happy. Dont bother me though, they only bark for a bit.
- thedogmother
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 4:14 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Forget any syndrome - I would never have two dogs that close in age. I had two labs long ago that were about a year apart and when they got old and it was time to say good-bye, it was within a year of each other. It is hard enough to say good-bye to a faithful companion and BFF but two so close together........Never again!
All my dogs now are about 5 years apart.
All my dogs now are about 5 years apart.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Labs are great dogs, and are known for taking training well. Don't worry, just train. Be curious about how good they can be. Read books from gun dog trainers, and ignore the psychobabble.arutch wrote:What do you mean by that? I have nothing to worry about? I'm not worrying anyway just curiousNeil wrote:
Besides the OP is asking about labs.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I have two dogs. Mine is a 5 y/o lab, very bonded to me.
My wifes is a 3 y/o lab GWP cross. She has been in the kennel with my lab from the day we got her. She is reasonably bonded to my wife, but even moreso to my lab.
When I take out my lab for something, and leave her behind, she whines and yips for a few hours then gets over it.
If I take my wifes dog, and leave my lab, it's no issuse (other than some dirty looks when I leave and return from my lab).
Next dog I get will be kept seperate more to help prevent some of the seperation anxiety.
My wifes is a 3 y/o lab GWP cross. She has been in the kennel with my lab from the day we got her. She is reasonably bonded to my wife, but even moreso to my lab.
When I take out my lab for something, and leave her behind, she whines and yips for a few hours then gets over it.
If I take my wifes dog, and leave my lab, it's no issuse (other than some dirty looks when I leave and return from my lab).
Next dog I get will be kept seperate more to help prevent some of the seperation anxiety.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I have a dumb question about separation anxiety. If you had two dogs and they were bonded and suffered from separation anxiety, wouldn't the dog that you took hunting be as upset as the one that you left at home?
- Hoosierdaddy
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:31 am
- Location: N/W Indiana
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Priceless!!!!!!rinker wrote:I have a dumb question about separation anxiety. If you had two dogs and they were bonded and suffered from separation anxiety, wouldn't the dog that you took hunting be as upset as the one that you left at home?
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
You always come through for us. If Neil doesn't think it matters it is psychobabble. PricelessNeil wrote:Labs are great dogs, and are known for taking training well. Don't worry, just train. Be curious about how good they can be. Read books from gun dog trainers, and ignore the psychobabble.arutch wrote:What do you mean by that? I have nothing to worry about? I'm not worrying anyway just curiousNeil wrote:
Besides the OP is asking about labs.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Only the younger one gets the seperation anxiety. I can leave my lab home, and she just gets grumpy with me as she knows she missed out on something. Take my lab and leave the other one, she's whining and complaining for hours.rinker wrote:I have a dumb question about separation anxiety. If you had two dogs and they were bonded and suffered from separation anxiety, wouldn't the dog that you took hunting be as upset as the one that you left at home?
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
[/quote]ezzy333 wrote:
You always come through for us. If Neil doesn't think it matters it is psychobabble. Priceless
I trained my first dog in 1960, ran my first trial in 1963, 50 years of experience may well be priceless.
I know little about seeing eye dogs, never saw a connection to bird dogs. I do know most of the top winning breeders keep whole litters.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
I trained my first dog in 1960, ran my first trial in 1963, 50 years of experience may well be priceless.Neil wrote:ezzy333 wrote:
You always come through for us. If Neil doesn't think it matters it is psychobabble. Priceless
I know little about seeing eye dogs, never saw a connection to bird dogs. I do know most of the top winning breeders keep whole litters.[/quote]
WE are close to the same schedule. I trained my first dogs in the late forties and early fifties. Got my first Brittany in 65 I think but ended up with 3 within a year. I don't see much connection to dogs that perform different tasks except what effects a dog during training is universal to most dogs no matter what kind of training you are doing. That is pretty much why all breeds seem to do better if they are left with their littermates till they are eight weeks old or older. We don't here as much about it but there is some what of a cut-off at 12 weeks. They need some time of there own and a lot of socializing if they are to become all they can be. As we all know every pup is different and we need to adjust our thinking when it comes to training to each individual dog, But just like every other animal there are things that need to be introduced in the early stages of life if they are going to be able to handle all of the circumstances they will face during their life time. Psychobabble to some, early training to others.
Ezzy
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
We kept two puppies from our litter. It wasn't planned. I let my husband choose our female "Franki" to keep, and I kept a male pup "Lucky" that wasn't spoken for. Lucky needed a baby canine tooth pulled, as it was leaning inward, and the vet wanted to wait until he was 10 weeks old. I was having withdrawals as I watched the other 5 pups go home, so this was fine by me. When the tooth was pulled, I still wasn't ready, so I told myself that maybe we should keep Lucky to see if the adult tooth would come in fine or need pulling too. By about 14 weeks, I was a little tired in managing 2 indoor puppies mostly by myself. I put out the word that I had a male pup available, and immediately got some interest. I waffled a little and in the meantime, we started working the two pups on birds. It was something like the 2nd time out, that Lucky hit about the hardest staunchest point you could get from a pup, enough so that my husband got tired of waiting to launch the bird and was able to go in front and flush. I was informed that I could sell the female Franki, but Lucky was his and going nowhere. The pups were about 15-16 weeks old by then, and he had done a switcharoo on me. Franki's a mighty fine girl as well, and I wasn't prepared to let her go either.
So here we are, with his and hers pups that will be 8 months old soon. As I look back, there were times I wanted to pull my hair out. Having to housebreak two puppies at one time was a real pain, and I think it took 2x as long as it should have. Part of the problem was that the litter was born and reared in my home, so we'd had a couple accidents along the way, even before everyone went to their new homes. Maybe there was a bit of a pattern there or maybe my rigorous cleaning didn't outsmart their noses. Secondly, it gets tiresome dealing with two puppies, even separately...to the point that I know I was lax in watching the clock at times.
The puppies were crated separately at about 10 weeks. Their crates and outdoor kennels are side by side however. By about 10-12 weeks, it was obvious that they couldn't be out much together. The would play fight constantly. In talking to someone else that had littermates, this is something they were familiar with as well. So it became a matter of separating them so that we didn't end up with any dominant/submissive issues, that would alter their future personalities. I also didn't feel they needed that level of roughhousing on young immature bodies. And not to be underrated, I knew they were bonding with each other more than with us. So then it became a bit of a juggling act, of trying to give each the same level of attention, bonding, play, etc. I don't know if that was unfair to the puppies, but I do know I felt a little robbed. My puppy buyers would send photos of snuggling sleeping pups, which is something that just didn't happen at our house. There was no quiet cuddle time, because when one was out playing, the other was sleeping and recharging in their crate. At almost 8 months old, I still separate them if they get to roughhousing, but they're usually out together every evening as we watch t.v. There are lots of nylabones and chewies around my house.
Formal training separately is a non-issue, as I work with my dogs separately anyway...unless we're working on backing or something more advanced with older dogs. They both took their NAVHDA NA tests at not quite 5 months old, and passed with maximum scores. We'll see how they do with future tests/trials requiring much more on the training side of things, but I don't anticipate problems if we keep treating them as individuals.
Their puppy field walks did have to be separate to begin with. I started with them together, at around 3 months old, but was noticing too much tagging going on. It took a couple months of field separation, but they are fine now. That was a bit of a time cruncher, in driving to some public ground and walking one for 30+ minutes and then repeating it with the next. It's not that I don't love the outdoors or walking with pups, but sometimes time is a luxury. I think that when we started with birdwork, they discovered that there were better things afield, and not to waste their time on each other. They've hunted together and with other dogs now, and are doing fine for their age. I still continue to hunt them separately too, just to keep them well rounded.
I have not noted any separation anxiety. Jealousy/desire yes...separation anxiety no. I could let the female out right this moment, and the male would take notice, but go back to sleep. Should I start working on fetch and hold with a training dumbell with her, he will start whining. It's no different than how my older dogs act, when one is getting to do something, and the other isn't. In being crated and kenneled separately, one is always out while the other is in, so I would imagine they've become a bit immune to any extreme separation worries.
I am certainly not condoning having littermates, and I'm sure there can be problems if it's not managed correctly. I'm not sure I would do it ever again, solely because in having 2 house pups, it was more work than I wanted. It wouldn't have mattered if they were littermates or simply two closely age related puppies. I felt like I was on rewind, doing the same thing twice, and not getting as far as fast as I would have with one. Now at almost 8 months old, things have settled down, and I'm certainly enjoying them more and like what I see. I can't imagine that I'm going to
have one or two GSP lemons, just because they were raised together, but I guess time will tell how well we did with it.
So here we are, with his and hers pups that will be 8 months old soon. As I look back, there were times I wanted to pull my hair out. Having to housebreak two puppies at one time was a real pain, and I think it took 2x as long as it should have. Part of the problem was that the litter was born and reared in my home, so we'd had a couple accidents along the way, even before everyone went to their new homes. Maybe there was a bit of a pattern there or maybe my rigorous cleaning didn't outsmart their noses. Secondly, it gets tiresome dealing with two puppies, even separately...to the point that I know I was lax in watching the clock at times.
The puppies were crated separately at about 10 weeks. Their crates and outdoor kennels are side by side however. By about 10-12 weeks, it was obvious that they couldn't be out much together. The would play fight constantly. In talking to someone else that had littermates, this is something they were familiar with as well. So it became a matter of separating them so that we didn't end up with any dominant/submissive issues, that would alter their future personalities. I also didn't feel they needed that level of roughhousing on young immature bodies. And not to be underrated, I knew they were bonding with each other more than with us. So then it became a bit of a juggling act, of trying to give each the same level of attention, bonding, play, etc. I don't know if that was unfair to the puppies, but I do know I felt a little robbed. My puppy buyers would send photos of snuggling sleeping pups, which is something that just didn't happen at our house. There was no quiet cuddle time, because when one was out playing, the other was sleeping and recharging in their crate. At almost 8 months old, I still separate them if they get to roughhousing, but they're usually out together every evening as we watch t.v. There are lots of nylabones and chewies around my house.
Formal training separately is a non-issue, as I work with my dogs separately anyway...unless we're working on backing or something more advanced with older dogs. They both took their NAVHDA NA tests at not quite 5 months old, and passed with maximum scores. We'll see how they do with future tests/trials requiring much more on the training side of things, but I don't anticipate problems if we keep treating them as individuals.
Their puppy field walks did have to be separate to begin with. I started with them together, at around 3 months old, but was noticing too much tagging going on. It took a couple months of field separation, but they are fine now. That was a bit of a time cruncher, in driving to some public ground and walking one for 30+ minutes and then repeating it with the next. It's not that I don't love the outdoors or walking with pups, but sometimes time is a luxury. I think that when we started with birdwork, they discovered that there were better things afield, and not to waste their time on each other. They've hunted together and with other dogs now, and are doing fine for their age. I still continue to hunt them separately too, just to keep them well rounded.
I have not noted any separation anxiety. Jealousy/desire yes...separation anxiety no. I could let the female out right this moment, and the male would take notice, but go back to sleep. Should I start working on fetch and hold with a training dumbell with her, he will start whining. It's no different than how my older dogs act, when one is getting to do something, and the other isn't. In being crated and kenneled separately, one is always out while the other is in, so I would imagine they've become a bit immune to any extreme separation worries.
I am certainly not condoning having littermates, and I'm sure there can be problems if it's not managed correctly. I'm not sure I would do it ever again, solely because in having 2 house pups, it was more work than I wanted. It wouldn't have mattered if they were littermates or simply two closely age related puppies. I felt like I was on rewind, doing the same thing twice, and not getting as far as fast as I would have with one. Now at almost 8 months old, things have settled down, and I'm certainly enjoying them more and like what I see. I can't imagine that I'm going to
have one or two GSP lemons, just because they were raised together, but I guess time will tell how well we did with it.
- Hoosierdaddy
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:31 am
- Location: N/W Indiana
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Great post as i have dealt with the very same situationwems2371 wrote:We kept two puppies from our litter. It wasn't planned. I let my husband choose our female "Franki" to keep, and I kept a male pup "Lucky" that wasn't spoken for. Lucky needed a baby canine tooth pulled, as it was leaning inward, and the vet wanted to wait until he was 10 weeks old. I was having withdrawals as I watched the other 5 pups go home, so this was fine by me. When the tooth was pulled, I still wasn't ready, so I told myself that maybe we should keep Lucky to see if the adult tooth would come in fine or need pulling too. By about 14 weeks, I was a little tired in managing 2 indoor puppies mostly by myself. I put out the word that I had a male pup available, and immediately got some interest. I waffled a little and in the meantime, we started working the two pups on birds. It was something like the 2nd time out, that Lucky hit about the hardest staunchest point you could get from a pup, enough so that my husband got tired of waiting to launch the bird and was able to go in front and flush. I was informed that I could sell the female Franki, but Lucky was his and going nowhere. The pups were about 15-16 weeks old by then, and he had done a switcharoo on me. Franki's a mighty fine girl as well, and I wasn't prepared to let her go either.
So here we are, with his and hers pups that will be 8 months old soon. As I look back, there were times I wanted to pull my hair out. Having to housebreak two puppies at one time was a real pain, and I think it took 2x as long as it should have. Part of the problem was that the litter was born and reared in my home, so we'd had a couple accidents along the way, even before everyone went to their new homes. Maybe there was a bit of a pattern there or maybe my rigorous cleaning didn't outsmart their noses. Secondly, it gets tiresome dealing with two puppies, even separately...to the point that I know I was lax in watching the clock at times.
The puppies were crated separately at about 10 weeks. Their crates and outdoor kennels are side by side however. By about 10-12 weeks, it was obvious that they couldn't be out much together. The would play fight constantly. In talking to someone else that had littermates, this is something they were familiar with as well. So it became a matter of separating them so that we didn't end up with any dominant/submissive issues, that would alter their future personalities. I also didn't feel they needed that level of roughhousing on young immature bodies. And not to be underrated, I knew they were bonding with each other more than with us. So then it became a bit of a juggling act, of trying to give each the same level of attention, bonding, play, etc. I don't know if that was unfair to the puppies, but I do know I felt a little robbed. My puppy buyers would send photos of snuggling sleeping pups, which is something that just didn't happen at our house. There was no quiet cuddle time, because when one was out playing, the other was sleeping and recharging in their crate. At almost 8 months old, I still separate them if they get to roughhousing, but they're usually out together every evening as we watch t.v. There are lots of nylabones and chewies around my house.
Formal training separately is a non-issue, as I work with my dogs separately anyway...unless we're working on backing or something more advanced with older dogs. They both took their NAVHDA NA tests at not quite 5 months old, and passed with maximum scores. We'll see how they do with future tests/trials requiring much more on the training side of things, but I don't anticipate problems if we keep treating them as individuals.
Their puppy field walks did have to be separate to begin with. I started with them together, at around 3 months old, but was noticing too much tagging going on. It took a couple months of field separation, but they are fine now. That was a bit of a time cruncher, in driving to some public ground and walking one for 30+ minutes and then repeating it with the next. It's not that I don't love the outdoors or walking with pups, but sometimes time is a luxury. I think that when we started with birdwork, they discovered that there were better things afield, and not to waste their time on each other. They've hunted together and with other dogs now, and are doing fine for their age. I still continue to hunt them separately too, just to keep them well rounded.
I have not noted any separation anxiety. Jealousy/desire yes...separation anxiety no. I could let the female out right this moment, and the male would take notice, but go back to sleep. Should I start working on fetch and hold with a training dumbell with her, he will start whining. It's no different than how my older dogs act, when one is getting to do something, and the other isn't. In being crated and kenneled separately, one is always out while the other is in, so I would imagine they've become a bit immune to any extreme separation worries.
I am certainly not condoning having littermates, and I'm sure there can be problems if it's not managed correctly. I'm not sure I would do it ever again, solely because in having 2 house pups, it was more work than I wanted. It wouldn't have mattered if they were littermates or simply two closely age related puppies. I felt like I was on rewind, doing the same thing twice, and not getting as far as fast as I would have with one. Now at almost 8 months old, things have settled down, and I'm certainly enjoying them more and like what I see. I can't imagine that I'm going to
have one or two GSP lemons, just because they were raised together, but I guess time will tell how well we did with it.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Ezzy,
One question, do wolves seperate littermates when training them to hunt? Of all the training I do with hunting dogs developing their predator skills takes the most attention. The rest of it a seeing eye dog trainer could do.
So if you want a good, behaved dog in the house, follow your lead. If you want a dog to find wild birds, better to emulate; Miller, Lester, Hoffman, Buddy Smith, Wright, and the others that have started puppies that have won the National Championship.
BTW, my experience really did have a price, it was about half my income and time over my adult life.
One question, do wolves seperate littermates when training them to hunt? Of all the training I do with hunting dogs developing their predator skills takes the most attention. The rest of it a seeing eye dog trainer could do.
So if you want a good, behaved dog in the house, follow your lead. If you want a dog to find wild birds, better to emulate; Miller, Lester, Hoffman, Buddy Smith, Wright, and the others that have started puppies that have won the National Championship.
BTW, my experience really did have a price, it was about half my income and time over my adult life.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Not saying that it does not happen but I have owned 2 sets of littermates, they were raised together, kenneled together but hunted and trained separately none of the dogs ever showed anything negative or really different than any of the other dogs I owned. Maybe I was just lucky
- arutch
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 am
- Location: Dallas Texas, Hunt West Texas
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
Today my girlfriends mom took all 6 lab puppies to the vet. The vet told them they were the best breeders they have had come in and the best litter of pups they had seen yet with non looking stronger or weaker than the other. I had told them about litter mate syndrome so she decided to ask the vet about it he told her he had never heard of such a thing and keeping two together is actually good because the keep the other company so now they believe him. I have a whole forum and many threads stating other wise. But anyways I got both pups today the two biggest of the litter at 7 weeks 4 day maverick the chocolate is 15.2 pounds and duke is at 14.3 potty training is going great they come to a whistle and are bringing there toys to me and acting so proud. I am very excited to see what they will become.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
The men listed above are prominent E Pointer breeders/field trialers. I have been to two of these men's home and kennels. Both of them had a 'pasture' where they kept twenty-five, or more puppies of the same general age. One of the men invited me to go along and run some dogs. He proceeded to turn loose fifteen puppies between the age of six months and a year old, and away we went. I would have never believed that it was possible to run that many big running puppies at one time and keep track of them and keep them going in one direction, if I hadn't seen it. I spent an afternoon with this fellow and learned more about bird dogs than I would have normally learned in a year. I can assure you that avoiding littermate syndrome was very low on his list of priorities.If you want a dog to find wild birds, better to emulate; Miller, Lester, Hoffman, Buddy Smith, Wright, and the others that have started puppies that have won the National Championship.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
And all of them were white. I have seen them spray paint markers on them to identify and evaluate.
Interestingly, many go on to be house dogs, or at least truck dogs.
They are never trained to seeing eye dogs level, but they are hunters and good citizens.
Interestingly, many go on to be house dogs, or at least truck dogs.
They are never trained to seeing eye dogs level, but they are hunters and good citizens.
Re: Littermate syndrome prevention.
arutch wrote:I'm getting two lab puppies in two weeks they are my girlfriends labs puppies and I have already bonded very close with them since the day they were born. Is litter ate syndrome preventable I have a very large house, enough time, and really want to be successful. I would really not like any negative comments. Can it be done and tips for success. and if you have done it any advice. I can crate them on different floors, feed them separate, play with them separate, and let them play together a certain amount of time a day. I just want to be successful.
Kinda off topic but does she have any pups left I'm n east texas a few hours south of dallas and am lookin for a retrevier preferably chocalate lab