pointing distance

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WillieELk78GSP
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pointing distance

Post by WillieELk78GSP » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 pm

Just curious what kind of distance are you looking for when the dog goes on point? My 1.5 Y/O GSP points pretty close to the birds maybe 5 yards at max. Is there a way to lengthen this so she doesn't spook the birds, the release site I hunt in mainly the birds don't spook to easy, so when I finally get a wild pheasant she might spook it by getting to close. I might just be worried about nothing so I thought I would ask.

Thanks

Will

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Re: pointing distance

Post by ultracarry » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:40 pm

I bet you the dog smells it long before it points it. Send the dog to summer camp with wild birds if you don't have good numbers.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by WillieELk78GSP » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:51 pm

ultracarry wrote:I bet you the dog smells it long before it points it. Send the dog to summer camp with wild birds if you don't have good numbers.
Wish I could, pretty expensive, just spent $1600 on training and she hunts awesomely but not sure if I want to put more money this soon after training.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:10 am

If the dog understands that pointing is good and knocking is bad it won't take very long on some wild birds for her to figure it out.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by bonasa » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:49 am

slistoe wrote:If the dog understands that pointing is good and knocking is bad it won't take very long on some wild birds for her to figure it out.
Only the bird can show the dog how close to get, otherwise you may end up with a dog that lacks confidence. Every species is different, our dogs point grouse 25 yards through brush but then point woodcock at 3 yards under multiflora rose and again trail a put and take pheasant only to have it walk out then sight point it in a farm lane 15 yards away. Sounds like she knows her job and needs your help to down the bird, if you want a wild pheasant dog run her on wild pheasant.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by JKP » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:07 am

Don't want to cause friction, but a good trainer avoids this problem. Wild birds are the cure. I hate pen raised birds. If you have any possibility of getting your dog to wild birds, save the money and take the trip. Break your gun and walk with the dog and let the first 2-3 seasons be about developing the dog. The pictures of all the birds on the tailgate will be easy to get after that.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by DonF » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:21 am

You can avoid it pretty much with pigeon's. But, when your dog points birds that close, do the birds hold for it? If the answer is yes you have no grounds to complain. If your dog doesn't hold the birds, pigeons and a release trap can fix the problem. In training the dog was allowed to move on it's own until it got what you might consider to close. The way to stop that is with pigeons and trap. Be absolutely certain you know exactly where the trap is. Be certain you know which way the wind is moving. Bring the dog in cross wind and soon as the dog shows any sign at all of the bird, pop the bird. Don't let the dog have time to do what he wills, pop the bird and shut up. My guess is that after three or four of those, your dog will respond really really fast to point and you won't get the bird out, at that point, don't pop the trap. If you get him out 10 or 15 yds from the bird, go to him and relocate him right into the bird. No talking please! You need an imaginary line you don't let him cross and when he hit's it pop the bird and shut up. In a short time he will figure out how close he can get and then you should not be able to relocate him into the bird again. You should try it and the moment the dog bats an eye pop the bird. if your dog is busting bird that close he hasn't a clue that it's his movement flushing the bird. Then once it's done, take the dog back out on wild birds, do not use pen raised birds! One more time, do not use pen raised birds. If pen raised birds are all you have to hunt, that is one thing and I hunt them. But a pen raised bird will allow a dog more liberty than a wild bird. A pen raised bird might fly out of the country then again it might go a hundred feet and land, not good. A pen raised bird might run around on the ground trying to avoid you, even if it is a good flyer, a wild bird won't. Once the return to the wild bird is complete and the dog act's on a wild bird the same way as on the pigeon's, then pen raised birds are alright. Remember when you go to the wild birds, don't worry about shooting the bird, relocate your dog into the bird and let the bird teach the dog. When you can't relocate your dog into the wild birds anymore, you have a dog.

Years ago when I trialed, I did that to all my dog's. My wife scouted for me and if she found the dog on point, she would relocate it with a soft whistle through her teeth. If the dog didn't move then she'd let us know she found it and it was on point.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:28 am

Will -

Most preserve birds will allow a dog to get waaay too close. Soooo, the dog gets too close...because it can.

Not to worry. Exposure to wild birds will generally fix this fairly quickly. Wild birds simply will not put up with that level of pressure from a dog and will be gone if the dog gets too close.

My advice is to get your dog into the wild birds you want to hunt, as frequently as you can, then stay calm and above all stay quiet. The wild bird is the teacher, the dog is the student. You are there only to create the opportunity to learn and to reinforce the positive. Let the wild birds teach the dog just how much pressure they can exert. You want the dog close enough to pin the bird in place, but not so close that it causes the bird to run or fly. That is a delicate balance that only the wild birds you are hunting, can teach the dog. As stated by others, different wild birds behave differently, so the only way for the dog to get good at it is by doing. Late season birds can be pretty nervous depending on how much hunting pressure they have had, so don't expec t too much of the dog too soon. Even experienced dogs have problems pinning heavily hunted, late season birds successfully.

If you want your dog steady to wing and shot, there is something you can do in the training fields with planted birds or pigeons and remote release traps. It starts out with "stop to flush" drills and goes on to condition the dog to lock up at first scent by remote launching any bird that the dog does not immediately lock up on, the instant it encounters the scent .

RayG

PS. Most good bird dogs will feel bad enough when a bird flushes wild on them. They know they blew it. Remain calm and resist the temptation to scold the dog. Do not praise it or comfort it either. A disappointed look is probably all you need. Just go style it up, maybe set it back a step and style it up, gently, silently, but matter of factly, then collar it,walk or heel it out of there and send it on. Patience and persistence together with a good bit of shoeleather will git 'er done.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by rinker » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:51 am

There is no way to know from your post if you have a problem. Pointing distance can vary depending on many different factors. You should be able to tell if your dog smells birds and then creeps further in. If this is happening, then you probably do have a problem. If this isn't happening then poor scenting conditions may be causing your dog to get a little close.

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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:12 pm

You need to talk to your trainer. He knows your dog better than anyone on this board.

Doug

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Re: pointing distance

Post by JKP » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Patience and persistence together with a good bit of shoeleather will git 'er done.
Wise words which I wish someone had said to me 40 years ago. 4 years ago I took a young DD with me to SD...hard charging, never say die dog that pointed hard until i was 30 yds away and then he would rip 'em with a vengeance.
I put him in the truck and waited for a 75-80 degree afternoon. He pulled the same routine for nearly two hours...point, rip and chase...but he was tripping over his tongue in the heat and you could here the dog sucking wind for a half mile. Finally he pointed and I walked up ... and here was a panting frustrated but steady dog. I killed the bird and got down on one knee on the retrieve...HUGE praise. It was a turning point and things got better in a hurry...no screaming, yelling, electricity, etc. Now this won't work for every dog maybe....but years ago, I wouldn't have been able to keep my mouth shut and just let the birds teach the dog. Our problem in the east is the total lack of wild birds but it can be worth it to spend the hours for the few grouse and woodcock you can find.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by WillieELk78GSP » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:34 pm

rinker wrote:There is no way to know from your post if you have a problem. Pointing distance can vary depending on many different factors. You should be able to tell if your dog smells birds and then creeps further in. If this is happening, then you probably do have a problem. If this isn't happening then poor scenting conditions may be causing your dog to get a little close.
Don't think I have a problem was just curious as to what everyone else likes as far a distance from the bird, I should have worded it differently sorry.
Will

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Re: pointing distance

Post by SetterNut » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:03 pm

Pointing distance will very from situation to situation. On a day with good scenting conditions with a smelly bird like a pigeon, I have had points at over 60 yards or more. But there are times where the dog comes across the scent cone and passes by close to the bird, its going to be a close point.

This video was from last weekend on wild quail. It was not good scenting conditions, dry and windy, and Indy pointed this covey at 30+ yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vljcCON9_bw

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Sharon » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:09 pm

1.5 is still a young hunting dog. Give it time. It will figure out that close is not good. :)

edited for spelling
Last edited by Sharon on Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:49 am

But close is good - that is how the dog gets the bird to hold still for the gun. This teaching the dogs to artificially hold off on the birds is what makes for birds running out from the dog. Good dogs learn to put enough pressure on the birds to have them positively located and frozen into hiding without making them flush. Of course some dogs will not ever figure it out, but if the dog is never given the chance then it will be a given that they won't figure it out.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:14 pm

O kay. I need to think about that. Thanks. :)

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Pastor Brown » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:22 pm

That's a lot of $$$$ to be spending on summer camps...

Can't you just walk some fields in the off season, & find some wild birds?

I dunno, I'm still raising my GSP, but all my friends dogs are incredible hunters, & they all used wild birds, & real fields.

plus its good exercise

just a thought

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Re: pointing distance

Post by cjuve » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:46 pm

If the bird is still on the ground in front of the dog then what are you worried about? Here is a situation that I have seen many times while hunting late season birds.
1. Dog goes on point
2. I move in to flush birds
3. Birds flush wild 50 yds from the dog and 150 yds from me, dog still on point
4. I move in to flush in front of dog and a bird gets up 5 feet from dogs nose
5. I shoot bird
Now, why did this one bird stay when the rest left? The dog was able to put just enough pressure on the bird to make it hide. Birds either run, fly or hide and the ammount of pressure that is put on them dictates their response. I have had the dog that points at long range and the one that figures out how to make them stop, each style can be effective but I probably shoot a higher percentage when the bird has been pinned since I know right where the bird is.

If you are hunting wild birds and the dog is not putting them in the air I would not be concerned, there is a lot more involved in a point that just scent. Make sure to give the dog the opportunity to figure it out on their own.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:09 pm

slistoe wrote:But close is good - that is how the dog gets the bird to hold still for the gun. This teaching the dogs to artificially hold off on the birds is what makes for birds running out from the dog. Good dogs learn to put enough pressure on the birds to have them positively located and frozen into hiding without making them flush. Of course some dogs will not ever figure it out, but if the dog is never given the chance then it will be a given that they won't figure it out.
+1. Pointing at a distance is not desired, producing the bird for the gun is.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by bmcox86 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:59 pm

If you get her on so my of those eastern wa pheasants I get she will start pointing farther out after bumping a few. My setter points the release birds pretty close but after a few weekends of wild pheasants he's pointing at first scent, 20-50 yards out

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:29 pm

cjuve wrote:If the bird is still on the ground in front of the dog then what are you worried about? Here is a situation that I have seen many times while hunting late season birds.
1. Dog goes on point
2. I move in to flush birds
3. Birds flush wild 50 yds from the dog and 150 yds from me, dog still on point
4. I move in to flush in front of dog and a bird gets up 5 feet from dogs nose
5. I shoot bird
Now, why did this one bird stay when the rest left? The dog was able to put just enough pressure on the bird to make it hide. Birds either run, fly or hide and the ammount of pressure that is put on them dictates their response. I have had the dog that points at long range and the one that figures out how to make them stop, each style can be effective but I probably shoot a higher percentage when the bird has been pinned since I know right where the bird is.

If you are hunting wild birds and the dog is not putting them in the air I would not be concerned, there is a lot more involved in a point that just scent. Make sure to give the dog the opportunity to figure it out on their own.
+ 1 again.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by JKP » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:17 pm

Pointing at a distance is not desired, producing the bird for the gun is
Can't agree. Mid to late season sharpies don't take pressure and a dog that tries to work them like phez is gonna put them in the air most of the time. What is often needed is the sharptail "shimmy"....at 30-50 yds...and then you start marching
with tempo and get ready to shoot the modified barrel....and hope you get a shot before they lift off.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by SetterNut » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm

I want my dog to stop on first scent. With a good nose and decent scenting conditions, they are pointing at good distances. I don't like a dog to road in on a bird just to get close. That ends up with more bumped birds, and I don't shoot bumped birds.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by cjuve » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:59 pm

SetterNut wrote:I want my dog to stop on first scent. With a good nose and decent scenting conditions, they are pointing at good distances. I don't like a dog to road in on a bird just to get close. That ends up with more bumped birds, and I don't shoot bumped birds.
How far you like a dog to point off their birds is a matter of personal preference and if you like that that is fine. I have hunted with both types and know that they each have their place but prefer the dog that is not as cautious and can get them to stop.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by slistoe » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:02 pm

SetterNut wrote:I want my dog to stop on first scent. With a good nose and decent scenting conditions, they are pointing at good distances. I don't like a dog to road in on a bird just to get close. That ends up with more bumped birds, and I don't shoot bumped birds.
Dogs that know what they are doing don't bump birds very often. When they do they actually look apologetic. Good dogs don't road in just to get close - they locate birds and point them hard at distances that will tend to freeze the bird where it is. If the dog is roading in and knocking birds he simply isn't any good at his craft yet. Most dogs I have seen in the field will never get good at their craft because their trainers have negated any possibility of such.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by slistoe » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:11 pm

JKP wrote:
Pointing at a distance is not desired, producing the bird for the gun is
Can't agree. Mid to late season sharpies don't take pressure and a dog that tries to work them like phez is gonna put them in the air most of the time. What is often needed is the sharptail "shimmy"....at 30-50 yds...and then you start marching
with tempo and get ready to shoot the modified barrel....and hope you get a shot before they lift off.
Sorry JKP, your post made me laugh. You don't agree that producing the bird for the gun is what is important? Good dogs work phez like phez and sharpies like sharpies. In actuality I think they work all birds the same - they work the scent looking for a positive location of the bird and lock up hard when they sense the bird is feeling the pressure - all birds react to pressure in the same way, freeze or flight, but they do trigger differently.
Granted, I have not hunted all species in all locales, but I do believe that late season sharpies present the greatest challenge to both man and beast - but pointing at great distances is not always the key to success, even with them.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by cjuve » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:14 pm

Most dogs I have seen in the field will never get good at their craft because their trainers have negated any possibility of such
Duct tape is a mans best friend, I have seen "WHOA" used to ruin a good dog more than once..... Dog gets scent... Trainer: "WHOOOA!" dog continues because he has not got them locked down..... Trainer: " I said WHOOOA" Zap, ZAP!! A good dog knows way more about what a bird is doing than the handler.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by Wildweeds » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:25 pm

I know the trainer,cause I use him too,for anybody that thinks its a training issue, over 70 field champions from 7 different breeds and some AF ch's with a stub tail in all pointer entry. Gives you some insight as to this training.At 1 and a 1/2 with a couple months training Bella has the skills to execute,she needs time on the ground.We were not overly blessed with birds this year.Perspective wise, in 30 years of birddog training the trainer has won far more than everyone posting in this thread combined.I have a dog outside in the kennel that has 33 wins for the man.A stringmate of the same era had 52 wins.He has retired from trialing and is a stay at home breaker/hunting dog trainer.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by cjuve » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:13 pm

Wildweeds wrote:I know the trainer,cause I use him too,for anybody that thinks its a training issue, over 70 field champions from 7 different breeds and some AF ch's with a stub tail in all pointer entry. Gives you some insight as to this training.At 1 and a 1/2 with a couple months training Bella has the skills to execute,she needs time on the ground.We were not overly blessed with birds this year.Perspective wise, in 30 years of birddog training the trainer has won far more than everyone posting in this thread combined.I have a dog outside in the kennel that has 33 wins for the man.A stringmate of the same era had 52 wins.He has retired from trialing and is a stay at home breaker/hunting dog trainer.
Don't get your panties in a wad I don't think that anyone was referring to the trainer of the OP's dog, go back and re read the posts....... And in reference to your trainer I have seen dogs that he has trained. I still don't understand why people have someone else train their dogs.

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Re: pointing distance

Post by SetterNut » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:54 pm

cjuve wrote:
SetterNut wrote:I want my dog to stop on first scent. With a good nose and decent scenting conditions, they are pointing at good distances. I don't like a dog to road in on a bird just to get close. That ends up with more bumped birds, and I don't shoot bumped birds.
How far you like a dog to point off their birds is a matter of personal preference and if you like that that is fine. I have hunted with both types and know that they each have their place but prefer the dog that is not as cautious and can get them to stop.
The distance that the dog is pointing from is not real important as long as it is far enough for the bird being hunted. My dogs are often on point several hundred yards away from me. If they are right on top of the bird it is generally not a good thing. In this area we have Quail, Pheasants and Prairie Chicken. If a dog crowds a Prairie Chicken it is going to blow out of there. Quail if the dog is not right on them will stay there for a really long time. Pheasants will often run when the dog is on point. I just relocate the dog when I get there. They don't generally trail ground scent, but rather swing out down wind and cut the bird off.

I hunt by myself most of the time and sometimes hunt pheasants in huge wheat stubble fields. The dogs will be several hundred yards away, and if they are right on top of the pheasant, it will generally flush before I get there. The pheasants get up under weeds in the stubble, and if the dog is standing off the bird they are often there when I get there. If not, I relocate the dogs when I get there, and we go again.

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