New Cross Breed

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Vonzeppelinkennels
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New Cross Breed

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:39 pm

Talk about a designer hunting breed ,check this out & cheap at $1600 a pup.I can't believe some of the stuff I see anymore,am I the only one?

www.chathamhillpointers.com

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:49 pm

wow :roll:

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by campgsp » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:53 pm

Their mission statement is rediculous as well.
Never heard of a long hair weim either. Why?!

Some people seem to not be able to be satisfied with the breeds our ancestors took many years to create. And have to have their own more important qualities they just have to add.
If it ain't broke dont fix it. Sheesh.

If that breed has so many problems its from a start of bad breeding somewhere. Don't you agree?

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ACooper » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:09 pm

$1600 for a "Chattie"? I'd say that's a bargain!

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:45 pm

The dam of the litter is a BLUE Longhaired Weim & sire is Yellow Chatham Hill Retriever.

Blue & Yellow makes Green $$$ don't it? :lol:

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:04 pm

This is sickening. The miniature retrievers look like working english cockers to me. And a yellow flat coat? Lights and sirens everywhere from this site.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by campgsp » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:11 pm

 Blue Weims are not an accepted color in any Kennel Club.....so we breed those too!

I think that right there is the most disrespectful statement any wana be breeder could say about a breed.
Quoted right from their page. SMH

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DonF » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:55 pm

Cute puppy's. Not bad looking adults either. Needed? I don't think so but then what they say their looking for is about the way the boykin started. The dog that won't rock the boat! For $1600 I can buy a well bred pure bred dog that I've got a good idea how it will turn out. I suspect they'll sell some just not to many hunter's.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Sharon » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:18 pm

The link actually says " AKC registered long -haired weimaraner" - not a recognized AKC breed . I call this illegal.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:24 am

I saw that too. Was really what made me think the whole operation is crooked and they know it.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by shags » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:48 am

Long haired weims pop up in litters once in a while, no hanky panky going on. The tails are left long, but are generally kind of whippy/curvy.
Like the blue color, long hair is a disqualifying fault in the breed, but the dog can be registered.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by tjsnipehunter » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:16 pm

I saw no hunting dogs on that site. Looks like the dog version of crazy cat people. Nobody can keep as many 'project breeds' going as they do.
Longhaired Weims happen and can be registered but they are not anything but a Weim with a recessive longhair gene and not a separate breed, I think that is what they are saying.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:58 pm

6mo, someone will be on here asking about of bragging about their chattie.....

Jim

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by markj » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:43 pm

am I the only one?
Ya, its only you there lol

This world is going nutso fast. Girls want to be boys, boys wearing dresses and going into girls rest rooms.... cats barking at night.... people breeding any dog they can get their hands on and asking 3 times what a great dog costs...

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by thedogmother » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:42 pm

I know this is off subject from the original post but Long haired weimaraner is excepted and registered through the UKC.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/G ... er10022013

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by deke » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:45 am

Anyone have a german shepard we can breed to my lab? We will call them "Shepradors" They will retrieve your ducks, and guard your boat. We could make a fortune. And then ten maybe fifteen years down the line we will cross in a shorthair and come out with "pointing shepradors"

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by whatsnext » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:11 pm

deke wrote:Anyone have a german shepard we can breed to my lab? We will call them "Shepradors" They will retrieve your ducks, and guard your boat. We could make a fortune. And then ten maybe fifteen years down the line we will cross in a shorthair and come out with "pointing shepradors"


Most chessie's will gladly gaurd your stuff for you :lol:

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Munster » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:35 pm

What worries me more is that FCR's have A LOT of cancer issues. SO lets just spread that around. WOnder if they shre that bit of info with the puppy buyers.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:00 pm

Munster wrote:What worries me more is that FCR's have A LOT of cancer issues. SO lets just spread that around. WOnder if they shre that bit of info with the puppy buyers.
I didn't know cancer was genetic.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Munster » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:06 pm

Dont know how all that works. Just know a FCR that seems to have a continuing problem with it. Talks about trying to increase the life spand of the breed.. Must be something to it. Maybe some kind of immunity thing I dont know. Check into it if you think I am making it up. Means nothing to me Ezzy, I am beyond pissing matches on forums anymore. :wink:

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:32 pm

Munster wrote:Dont know how all that works. Just know a FCR that seems to have a continuing problem with it. Talks about trying to increase the life spand of the breed.. Must be something to it. Maybe some kind of immunity thing I dont know. Check into it if you think I am making it up. Means nothing to me Ezzy, I am beyond pissing matches on forums anymore. :wink:
I sure hope a simple statement or question is not a p***** match. I do know there can be a weakness in the immune system or some where in the make up of an individual that predisposes them to it but as far as I know that is limited way short of a whole breed. Hope someone has more info on this.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Munster » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Munster wrote:Dont know how all that works. Just know a FCR that seems to have a continuing problem with it. Talks about trying to increase the life spand of the breed.. Must be something to it. Maybe some kind of immunity thing I dont know. Check into it if you think I am making it up. Means nothing to me Ezzy, I am beyond pissing matches on forums anymore. :wink:
I sure hope a simple statement or question is not a p***** match. I do know there can be a weakness in the immune system or some where in the make up of an individual that predisposes them to it but as far as I know that is limited way short of a whole breed. Hope someone has more info on this.

I just did a quick search and came up with this. Didnt read it all. Never really had any reason to look up FCR cancer til now. Dont claim to know the soarce or if it is one sided. Just a random search.
I know the dogs this friend has lost have been pretty young. 5-7 years. Nice dogs. Show dogs.
No matter what breed it is, it sucks

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Munster » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:03 pm

Sorry the page link would have helped.
Just wonder if the new designer dog owners are aware,
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com ... ts-to.html

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by dog dr » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:17 am

If a certain breed has a problem, then crossing it with another will usually help to reduce or eliminate that problem. Dilution, so to speak.

Im not sure what to make of most of the posts on this thread. Alot of dog breeds have come about from cross-breeding other already established breeds of dogs, right?? Im not saying thats what will happen here, but i would be willing to bet that there were failures in the past as well. There was probably somebody who looked down their nose at the guy who cross bred dogs to develop a golden retriever, or a GSP. And, if people decide they like these dogs, then why shouldnt these people exercise their capitalistic right to gain from that? Yes, hopefully they are breeding intelligently and not just putting dogs together willy nilly. I guess I just get a sense of "they shouldnt be doing this because they arent doing it the way I would" from alot of the respoinses here, and that bugs me. Maybe im interpreting it wrong. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DonF » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:38 am

dog dr wrote:If a certain breed has a problem, then crossing it with another will usually help to reduce or eliminate that problem. Dilution, so to speak.

.
Couldn't that also go the other way?

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:34 pm

dog dr wrote:If a certain breed has a problem, then crossing it with another will usually help to reduce or eliminate that problem. Dilution, so to speak.

Im not sure what to make of most of the posts on this thread. Alot of dog breeds have come about from cross-breeding other already established breeds of dogs, right?? Im not saying thats what will happen here, but i would be willing to bet that there were failures in the past as well. There was probably somebody who looked down their nose at the guy who cross bred dogs to develop a golden retriever, or a GSP. And, if people decide they like these dogs, then why shouldnt these people exercise their capitalistic right to gain from that? Yes, hopefully they are breeding intelligently and not just putting dogs together willy nilly. I guess I just get a sense of "they shouldnt be doing this because they arent doing it the way I would" from alot of the respoinses here, and that bugs me. Maybe im interpreting it wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Doc, the difference to me is back when they were developing new breeds they were open about what they were doing and they culled instead of selling the rejects till they had the breed perfected. I think there was one other difference and that was they were developing a breed that was different from what was available in most cases. Back at the time most of that went on was back when there were very few breeds. Now it has become a designer thing with no intention of creating a breed but rather in most cases just something cute or different and they are then advertised as a new breed when all they are or ever will be is a crossbred pup. Nothing wrong with a crossbred if they are advertised and sold as a crossbred and not some new breed that never sheds a hair or is so smart they can count and tell you when they have retrieved your limit of ducks and go home all by themselves. Some even take the ducks.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Meller » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:53 pm

Designer breeds ? kind of like breeding for a straight up tail or to hold a head a certain way or a specific color!
It is not my thing either, but I bet the market will tell if it is successful or not. :)

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by Georgia Boy » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:50 pm

Meller wrote:Designer breeds ? kind of like breeding for a straight up tail or to hold a head a certain way or a specific color!
It is not my thing either, but I bet the market will tell if it is successful or not. :)
Well put. No different than the Wessel pointer or any other cross bred mutt. Its all about the $$$, I am sure some registry will recognize or accept the breed so they can make money off the fees and entries to shows and other games they play.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:20 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:
Meller wrote:Designer breeds ? kind of like breeding for a straight up tail or to hold a head a certain way or a specific color!
It is not my thing either, but I bet the market will tell if it is successful or not. :)
Well put. No different than the Wessel pointer or any other cross bred mutt. Its all about the $$$, I am sure some registry will recognize or accept the breed so they can make money off the fees and entries to shows and other games they play.
Don't believe that is the way it works.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by markj » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:17 pm

I am waiting for the person that will brred a bulldog to a shitzu :) make me a BullShitz puppy

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by dog dr » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:43 pm

markj wrote:I am waiting for the person that will brred a bulldog to a shitzu :) make me a BullShitz puppy
Ive seen one of those! A client of mine had one a couple years ago. Cool lookin dog, really. Died of kidney failure, I believe.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DougB » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:49 pm

They might be good dogs, but they are cross-breeds until they get a few generations of dogs breeding true to characteristics. If they keep cross breeding, they will not have a breed, just a lot of F1 cross bred dogs.
Wiki says:
A dog breed is represented by a sufficient number of individuals to stably transfer its specific characteristics over generations. Dogs of same breed have similar characteristics of appearance and behavior, primarily because they come from a select set of ancestors who had the same characteristics.[3] Dogs of a specific breed breed true, producing young closely similar to the parents.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by aulrich » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:56 pm

campgsp wrote: Blue Weims are not an accepted color in any Kennel Club.....so we breed those too!

I think that right there is the most disrespectful statement any wana be breeder could say about a breed.
Quoted right from their page. SMH
I am trying to think why this is so bad. they think reducing the gene pool because of color is a bad thing. Should not health, working instincts, temperament, physical conformity (as long as it does not impact health) make something like color a trivial matter. Unless that color is linked to some other issue (white heads and deafness may be an example) then other than marketing and the cashing of $'s dose it matter.

If there is truth to color does matter does it put validity to the statement chocolate labs are all dumb?

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by wems2371 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:39 pm

A little cross breed humor...Doberhuahua.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZQogu_rt9Y

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by markj » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:37 pm

Dang weims, my keyboard cant take it :)

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New Cross Breed

Post by Frankug » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:41 pm

I don't get it. Crossbreeding is how we got all dog breeds. If you breed purebreds you are essentially just breeding cousins. Cross breeding is proven to produce hybrid vigor, heterosis. ,

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by campgsp » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:21 pm

Frankug wrote:I don't get it. Crossbreeding is how we got all dog breeds. If you breed purebreds you are essentially just breeding cousins. Cross breeding is proven to produce hybrid vigor, heterosis. ,
Hybrid" is not the point of breeding.
Yes different breeds were used long ago to make what we have today. Why mess all of that up.
Its like a kid being told by grandma not to touch the one of a kind vase on the living room table. Instead he does and drops it shattering it. Going to take grandma lots of time, effort and lots of glue to fix it. If she just doesn't deside to just throw it out all together to be lost forever.
Breed purebred or don't breed.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DougB » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:34 am

Hybrid vigor comes from crossing different species. All dogs are the same species. Dog and wolf is a hybrid. Dog and coyote is a hybrid. GSP and lab is a mutt- a cross breed.
You may amplify traits you want or lessen traits not wanted want by selectively breeding and keeping track of results. Having a genetic history helps. With cross breeding, you don't know how the genes will combine. . The cross bred may be a superb dog, but it's a genetic crap shoot, and you can not forecast the results in offspring. If you get the mutt to show desired characteristics for several generations, you may have a new breed. In an ideal world, health and function would be more important than color or hair length, but dog shows in the US are more about conformation to a standard set by people who like pretty more than useful.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:53 am

DougB wrote:Hybrid vigor comes from crossing different species. All dogs are the same species. Dog and wolf is a hybrid. Dog and coyote is a hybrid. GSP and lab is a mutt- a cross breed.
You may amplify traits you want or don't want, and you don't have the predictability you get with pure breds. The cross bred may be a superb dog, but it's a genetic crap shoot.
If you get the mutt to show desired characteristics for several generations, you may have a new breed. In an ideal world, health and function would be more important than color or hair length, but dog shows in the US are more about conformation to a standard set by people who like pretty more than useful.
Doug, there is no way I can agree with much of what you are saying. We cross breed pigs, cattle, and all other domesticated animals and get the vigor you are talking about. You will never get a mutt to reproduce itself. You have to select and cull for generations to get an animal to reproduce consistently what you are wanting. The standards have been set as the blue print of what the breed was suppose to look like as well as how it was to function. Granted, standards have been changed or refined somewhat but they are still that blueprint of all aspects of the dog. We just don't hear much about them except in conformation shows since most physical activities have become a completion thing between dogs and not a test of each breeds abilities. That is one of the downfalls in my mind when we start judging each breed to the same standard since they were all created to hunt in their own style.

Ezzy

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DougB » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:28 pm

I'll give you the definition of" Hybrid". My definition was too narrow. My high school biology instructor kept talking about species for hybrids. A designer dog, from purebreds, is a hybrid. A designer dog from mixed parents or from a random breeding is a mongrel, mutt, cur. Hybrid does not guarantee hybrid vigor, as you can be breeding poor traits to poor traits. Your predictability is gone. I don't know if hogs, cattle, and horses are bred for Hybrid vigor. The ones I've seen are bred for specific traits which don't have much to do with animal health or vigor. Weight gain, milk production, hair color, flavor.

You are right about it taking time. Most of the designer dogs are first generation crosses. Russians showed significant results, turning foxes into dogs, in about 6 generations. Maybe not a new breed yet, but on the way. After 50 years of work, they may have a new breed of fox with consistent traits. A planned breeding program brings faster results than a random program. Call it a new breed or not. I said "may", as there are breeders selling a lot of F1 dogs as a new breed. We seem to agree that they are calling them a new breed a little quickly. My point was; These designer dogs are not a new breed yet.

Breed standards change as people change. Look at the German Shepherd. The new sloped back foot dragging dog is not the same animal it was 50 years ago. We seem to agree that the standards are not all they should be. New breeds are being developed, lines of existing breeds are being bred for specialized work (wide range vs working close, hot climate or cold).
We may even agree that the standards should include a functional and health goal, as opposed to just looking pretty, which a lot of the AKC clubs seem to value over performance.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by DonF » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm

I've been thinking this over and now think it's a great idea. Anywhere we go hunting, no body will have a dog like anyone else's! :)

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New Cross Breed

Post by Frankug » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:06 am

I breed angus and Simmental cattle. A sim angus is a hot breed right now. You get that by crossing a angus with a Simmental. Two purebreds. If you cross a GSP with a coon hound you get the same thing F1 hybrid. If you breed F1s you do not get more F1s you get F2 then 3s and so on. The performance from cross breeding cattle is well documented and proven scientifically. If you breed purebreds you are essentially breeding cousins and at some point will run out of genetic material. This is kind of what has happened to Angus cattle. Starting to see a ripples in the genetic pool. I am not saying what these people are doing is right but there is a place for cross breeding programs and purebreds. If you think breeding cousins doesn't create problems, then take a trip to Alabama and look around.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:49 am

I was watching a show on dog breeds a couple weeks ago. They said many of the breeds came about in the Victorian age when affluence abounded in Europe and America. Sounded like bored rich people and genetic tinkerers. It didn't sound particularly scientific nor were the results always a positive outcome. On the other hand, I'm sure the successful breeds we have were a result of similar experimentation.

I think what I find particularly repulsive is some uneducated person living below the poverty line that is tinkering with nothing more than opportunistic breedings or has an accidental breeding and is trying to convince the world they have something worth $$$.

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by MJB64 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:56 am

The positive side of this is that if there are more people hunting with these dogs, it will leave more birds in the field for everybody else!
Mike

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:25 am

MJB64 wrote:The positive side of this is that if there are more people hunting with these dogs, it will leave more birds in the field for everybody else!
Mike
Think what you just said. If there are MORE people hunting but they have poor dogs there will be MORE birds for the rest of us. So if I can get my neighbors to go walk through the fields with out shotguns there will be more birds for me. Somehow I don't think it works like that. :roll: :lol:


Ezzy

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by roaniecowpony » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:51 pm

Using that logic, it kinda begs the question: why would we want to introduce new hunters to the sport?

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:31 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Using that logic, it kinda begs the question: why would we want to introduce new hunters to the sport?
So there will be more birds

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by birddogger » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:02 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Charlie

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by MJB64 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:10 pm

You guys need a sense of humor.
Mike

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Re: New Cross Breed

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:22 am

MJB64 wrote:You guys need a sense of humor.
Mike
And a good Chattie

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