dog for upland bowhunting

[nbourbaki]

Hi all,

I currently do not hunt nor own a dog, however me and my children are looking to get into both.

I would like to tell you what kinds of hunting we would be ideally doing, and you suggest what is actually possible/desirable and possible breed or breeder suggestions.

We currently have little interest in gun hunting, but have all started target archery.

First and most importantly it would be a family dog, living inside, with children.

We would foremost be interested in upland bird bowhunting, preferring a pointing and retrieving dog (no razor tipped arrows used for this)

We would also try rabbit hunting, where finding, pointing (?) flushing and or retrieving would be nice. However, is it a good idea to let a bird dog get interested in rabbit? (again, no razor tipped arrows)

This is probably the least important aspect, but I would like to try limited deer and wild hog hunting. Here, the dog would only be used for blood tracking after animal has been shot WITH razor arrows.

so obviously it should also not shed, clean up after itself and perhaps fold laundry! I know I am asking for a lot. I guess I am more asking which of these are actually possible or desirable, and where we might need to make compromises. More than one dog is not currently and option.

GSP has been my first thought, btw.

Cheers, and many thanks

[nbourbaki]

perhaps I should add being able to find/retrieve arrows too, more likely than hitting many birds!

[Frankug]

I bird hunt, rabbit hunt, and deer hunt. My preferred method of deer hunting is archery. I have a Bavarian Mountain hound i trained and use to track many many deer. Some we never found but many we do. I can say with 100% confidence that I recover twice as many deer as I would without a dog. Remarkable how many variables can come into play after the shot. Also found it added another element to the deer hunt, "the tracking", and for a guy who likes to hunt with dogs, it has added the dog to deer hunting for me. I have owned three of this breed. I still have one female. They have short reddish hound hair. Probably sheds but not tons. I have 14 dogs and I think mine would be happier in a single dog family. They are super sensitive and require or love lots of attention. These are not bad things because it makes training a lot easier. I think I used a shock collar on one male I had because he would chase live deer. I never used one on my female I still have. One harsh word to my female and she is shamed to have not pleased me. Not trying to get rid of my dog, but if I only deer hunted archery and wanted one family dog to track deer it would no doubt be a mountain hound.
I have bow hunted rabbits as well. I also have a rabbit pack. Dachshunds and beagles. What we do there is the pack gets the rabbit up and in general chases the rabbit in circles. Usually the hunter waits for dogs to circle the rabbit back and shoots it with a gun. We just waited and shot it with a recurve. Blunt bird point, yeah yeah. It was tough, tough, tough. Fun but tough. I have seen people hunt pheasants with Dachshunds. They dont point but would flush them out of ditches and cover and what not. They are also superb blood trackers. Maybe a Wirehaired Dachshund is your dog. These are not the Americanized wiener dog. These come from German Hunting stock. I have six. Hard to just have one though. A pretty hardheaded super intelligent dog. Could very easily multitask. Some think training is tougher because of the hardheaded intelligence. It works well with my personal hardheadedness though. If you have any notion that the size of your hunting dog has something to do with the size of your Johnson, this is not the dog for you. If you do not have tough skin yourself this is not the dog for you. I have gotten many laughs at my Dachshunds funny looks, but years of prideful smiles hunting with them.
My most recent dog is an English Cocker Spaniel. He is only four months. I will train him to flush birds, and retrieve. They can also flush rabbits. This would allow one shot with a bow anyway. Seems sensitive and intelligent. Definitely will be able to multitask. Could it flush birds and rabbits for the bow and track deer? I think so. To my knowledge they don't point birds but flush.
All of these dogs are working dogs. They like to work. Don't get a working dog and then not work it. You and your dog especially will be miserable.
Now you see my problem, to many great and wonderful things to do with dogs and to many cool "bleep" dogs to do em with.

[nbourbaki]

thanks for your reply, I will look into a few of those breeds.

glad to hear it is at least possible to consider many/most of my potential hunting applications.

[CDN_Cocker]

Well you all better take note here because I will probably never type this again but i think Frankug is wrong with regards to using a flusher. If you are going to try and upland hunt with a bow (never heard of people doing that it's hard enough with a shotgun) I would not use a flusher. A pointing dog would give you more opportunities to harvest game because you will have time to actually aim your bow.

[jimbo&rooster]

The preserve i occasionally buy birds from has a group of guys who bow hunt for birds. In conversation I have also found out that they will hunt bunnies. They use britts and GSPs, purely their preferred breeds and they train them much the same way that they would a bird dog, they teach Whoa, and when their dogs point whether it is rabbits or birds they will whoa their dog go in for the flush and then attempt the shot. Fact is most rabbits will hold for a point, much like a bird.

It is interesting to me to look at their equipment. they use recurve bows, Flu Flu arrows, and for tips they will put about 1/2" of JB weld in the bottom of a 44mag casing and permanently place it on the end of the arrow.

I also feel like a flushing dog is a bad Idea, while most hunters know when their dog is about to put a critter up, it would be very difficult to get in possition to make a shot in front of a flusher.

Good luck

Jim

[Mountaineer]

Hopefully, IF this is done, it carries a personal requirement to never leave an arrow that missed behind, especially if public land is involved....even in the excitement of the moment.
There are stobs enough that a dog might run into...do not really need a 1/4" or so wood, metal or composite shaft angled 45 degrees into the ground and tipped with a piece of plastic for a hard-running dog to negotiate around.
The back of the arrow is as important as the front, in that regard. :roll:

I would go Labrador....or, better yet, let your children be the dogs.

[nbourbaki]

Agreed, pointing on upland birds is a must for bowhunting!

One uses Flu Flu arrows with huge feathers to prevent long flight, and easy recovery. Dogs can help in finding arrows too. As for points, snaro tips (big loops of wire) or equivalent give a better chance of actually hitting anything, but certainly less efficient than a shotgun (but no less fun).

I didnt know if rabbits would hold a point or not. I am concerned about encouraging a family dog to train on rabbits, as we have them all over town. will they be hunting them on neighborhood walks or trying to jump fence at home (it is well over 6')? Or can you train to only hunt when allowed to?

cheers

[Mstng_ray]

I have a English pointer {female} that I hunt birds and rabbits with. I also hunt with a bow and she is great at retrieving my arrows. As far as a house dog she is excellent inside but she does shed a bit. I thought being a short haired dog that she wouldn't shed as much as she does. Buts its nothing a little vacuuming every couple days cant take care of. As far as the hunting with a bow its tricky. Cottontails are pretty fun because they hold in cover and she gets a good point. Which gives me time to draw and aim, but jackrabbits are a different animal. They never hold they always run and then the chase is on. Same with quail and dove, quail hold and you get a shot. But its always fun. I love the challenge with the bow and my little girl is my bestfriend. I think we'll go out here in a little bit.

[nbourbaki]

Mstng,

any trick to training dog to retrieve arrows? Also, where do you hunt?

cheers!

[Georgia Boy]

I bird hunt, rabbit hunt, and deer hunt. My preferred method of deer hunting is archery. I have a Bavarian Mountain hound i trained and use to track many many deer. Some we never found but many we do. I can say with 100% confidence that I recover twice as many deer as I would without a dog. Remarkable how many variables can come into play after the shot. Also found it added another element to the deer hunt, "the tracking", and for a guy who likes to hunt with dogs, it has added the dog to deer hunting for me. I have owned three of this breed. I still have one female. They have short reddish hound hair. Probably sheds but not tons. I have 14 dogs and I think mine would be happier in a single dog family. They are super sensitive and require or love lots of attention. These are not bad things because it makes training a lot easier. I think I used a shock collar on one male I had because he would chase live deer. I never used one on my female I still have. One harsh word to my female and she is shamed to have not pleased me. Not trying to get rid of my dog, but if I only deer hunted archery and wanted one family dog to track deer it would no doubt be a mountain hound.
I have bow hunted rabbits as well. I also have a rabbit pack. Dachshunds and beagles. What we do there is the pack gets the rabbit up and in general chases the rabbit in circles. Usually the hunter waits for dogs to circle the rabbit back and shoots it with a gun. We just waited and shot it with a recurve. Blunt bird point, yeah yeah. It was tough, tough, tough. Fun but tough. I have seen people hunt pheasants with Dachshunds. They dont point but would flush them out of ditches and cover and what not. They are also superb blood trackers. Maybe a Wirehaired Dachshund is your dog. These are not the Americanized wiener dog. These come from German Hunting stock. I have six. Hard to just have one though. A pretty hardheaded super intelligent dog. Could very easily multitask. Some think training is tougher because of the hardheaded intelligence. It works well with my personal hardheadedness though. If you have any notion that the size of your hunting dog has something to do with the size of your Johnson, this is not the dog for you. If you do not have tough skin yourself this is not the dog for you. I have gotten many laughs at my Dachshunds funny looks, but years of prideful smiles hunting with them.
My most recent dog is an English Cocker Spaniel. He is only four months. I will train him to flush birds, and retrieve. They can also flush rabbits. This would allow one shot with a bow anyway. Seems sensitive and intelligent. Definitely will be able to multitask. Could it flush birds and rabbits for the bow and track deer? I think so. To my knowledge they don't point birds but flush.
All of these dogs are working dogs. They like to work. Don't get a working dog and then not work it. You and your dog especially will be miserable.
Now you see my problem, to many great and wonderful things to do with dogs and to many cool "bleep" dogs to do em with.

A good Teckel is also capable of doing earth work on fox and badger. I have Deutsch-Drahthaar and Jagd Terrier now but will soon add a Teckel to our pack from real earth working lines from Serbia.

[RayGubernat]

Rabbits in the snow with a bow is an absolute blast. Don't need a dog and you can see where the arrow entered the snow cover.

I sucked at the smooth, continuous draw and release you need for that kind of shooting. I remember shooting at the same rabbit ten times over the course of a three hour trek thru the snow. Never did connect. But it was fun.

I also would suggest a pointing type dog as it will allow you to get in position for a shot and set your footing somewhat.

I did like the Zwickey Judo tips. Dunno if they still make them. The prongs on the head caused most arrows to tip up instead of burrowing in and under the grass, when shooting at bunnies. Didn't matter so much when shooting after pheasants as the flu flu' s just kinda floated to the ground and laid on top. I expect the reflective or lighted nocks they have today will help, but they did not exist back when I was messing with archery. I gave up on it after a dozen or so outings. Repairing and replacing arrows was getting time consuming and expensive and that was back when you could get a dozen tapered Port Orford cedar shafts for six or seven bucks and a bag of split turkey feathers for a buck.

RayG

[bobman]

When I was a kid in the early 60s , Milwaukee county, Wi was pheasant hunting mecca.... but no gun hunting was allowed.

You could kill hens and roosters and I used a recurve and a Brittany. I killed a lot of them and missed a lot of them LOL. In the 60s pheasant and huns were common in se wi.

Snaros wont kill a pheasant you need a dull cut on contact broad head and fluorescent orange fluflu fletching, pheasants are tough.

I've killed a ton of cottontails with bows but we never used dogs for that.

You can train the dog to find arrows by dragging the arrow thru your arm pits so it stinks, then you start with the arrow on top of the grass in your yard and progress to having the arrow under the grass like it will be if you miss pretty basic and easy to train.

I killed one duck when I was a kid, I was shooting at the duck about 25 yards ahead of the one I hit but I never told my best friend that

[Frankug]

CDN Cocker, I was just relaying what I had done. Not telling anyone one way or another. I just said it might work. I have never done it around pointers, I don't know who would flush the birds. Unless you had the dog point and the kids flush while you got ready with the bow. Once again never done it, just trying to tell them what I have done. Whatever, though. Cool as heck that somebody has done it that way though! Fired up too that someone is getting into dogs.
Georgia Boy: Hunted with some Germans in Germany and their Teckels all had Beacons on and the hunters all wore shovels on their backs. When the dogs got lost down the hole they would track the dog and dig them out with the shovels. Terrain and rabbit warrens are different over there. Mine don't really go to ground but I don't really want them to either. They will bark and dig around the entrance for sure, but really go down no. Oddly enough my Mountain Hound will dig a rabbit out. I have lost dogs down rabbit holes or in wood piles. The last thing I want to lose is my Teckels. They all track rabbits on top of the ground like beagles. No briar patch to thick. A hunter over there just sent me pics of his teckel post Badger encounter down a hole, I hope the badger is dead, that is all I will say. The dog is not, but roughed up pretty bad. Tough little dogs!! A fox would be a cakewalk after the badger. I have plenty of coyotes here but very few foxes. Seen tons of hunting pics with Teckels and foxes. Go get em!!!

[Mstng_ray]

I never trained her to retrieve my arrows. just something she picked up. When ever I would miss and lose a arrow I would tell her { FIND IT] and when she did I would praise her. Now when I practice she will sit in front of me watching. And when the arrow flies she runs down to the target and makes sure the arrow is in the target. If its not she starts looking. I bet she has saved me hundreds in arrows. And something I had to learn the hard way is use [JUDO POINTS}