AKC Vs AF

[duckn66]

I'm completely clueless about the difference in the two trials. I see more Pointing dogs are ran AF than AKC it seems. Which do you like better and why? Looking at pedigrees it seems that most do not have AKC titles and if they did perhaps they wouldn't hold as much water?

Why is there not a hunt test type format for pointing dogs? I know there is NSTRA and others but why is there not one where a pointing dog is required to run and cover large amounts of ground, find X amount of birds in a given time and compete against a standard rather than against other dogs? It just seems that the good ole boy system could really thrive in current formats. Not a format where the bird field is small but instead a very large area where a dog will have to run and cover ground to find birds. Does that make sense?

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject.

[slistoe]

The AKC does hold hunt tests for pointing dogs. They are quite well attended by a wide representation of breeds across the country.

[cjhills]

There Is. AKC hunt test...........................Cj

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Hunt tests are not Field Trials but tests where dogs either pass or fail.Field trials are competition between dogs if you can't stand to loose & don't believe in one winner stick with tests.

[duckn66]

I knew AKC had them but didn't know they were in that format. I'll have to take a closer look now that I am on a screen bigger than an Iphone.

I was just curious about the different pointing dog venues as I have been getting more and more into the pointy dog thing as the ever and more popular waterfowling scene has turned into a 3 ring circus on TV, the internet, and in the marsh. Hate to throw away 40 years of waterfowling but it's really more than I can stomach these days and these pointing dogs really aren't as bad as I thought they would be. Truthfully though, I have been having an absolute blast with my newly aquired pointers both attempting to train them and hunting over them. I don't think I will ever get into running them. I grew up in a retriever field trialers home but just never caught the bug like the old man did. He formed the Sunflower Retriever club, which is now known as the Topeka Retriever club in 1974. But quit running trials probably in the early 80s or so for lack of time and bird boys.

I'll look at AKC as well as UKC. Thanks for the replies and not beating me up to much over the question.

[ultracarry]

If you pass a master hunter hunt test odds are you may have a shot in walking field trials where dogs range is suitable for a walking handler. I don't think it's as much as a good ok boys club as you hear... Try it out a few times and I'm sure you may make one or two a year in the off season.

[shags]

Google bird dog field trials and you'll find lots of different venues to choose from. I'm not a participant in them, but I think UFTA (?) is one of those timed things you ask about.

Between AF and AKC trials there isn't much difference in the actual dogwork. It's mostly philosophical and administrative things that separate them. You can download the rules and regulations for AKC trials from the AKC website; you can find guidelines for AF trials at the AFTCA site ( those are aimed at amateur trials but the principles apply to open trials too).

I think you'll find bird dog trials a bit different from retriever events. IME the pointy dog games are more relaxed on several levels.

Find and attend a few tests/trials in the format that interests you before you enter. Watch with open eyes to see where your dog needs to be in order to be competitive. You must make an honest comparison between your dogs and the dogs which are successful, otherwise it's easy to blame the good ol boys for your lack of success.

Good luck and have fun with it.

[Carolina Gundogs]

In many places, the AKC hunt tests will have higher attendance than the local field trials. Also, the NAVHDA hunt tests are steered toward the versatile dogs and have high attendance . The recent test for the Carolina Chapter had such a large interest until they ran a "double" test and still had more interest than they could accommodate for the test. Very large turnout.

[RoostersMom]

Duckn - the BHU, Bird Hunters United has a very active presence in MO/KS. They are a GREAT group of people. Very family friendly too, which I like, even though I don't have kids.

Also, we're having a walking field trial (Vizsla Club) at the James Reed Area in MO in a couple of weeks. In conjunction with that is a Quail Forever Hunting Dog Classic (fun hunt). You're welcome to come on out if you're in the vicinity. Feb 22 weekend.

[duckn66]

I talked to one of the guys from BDU last fall I believe. Seemed like a super nice person.

Thanks for all the great information from everyone.

[JKP]

if you can't stand to loose & don't believe in one winner stick with tests.

you mean a winner on a particular day??? And here I thought UT 1-204 beat a UT 1 - 190......what was I thinking???

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

JKP if I'm not mistaken I believe you were one of the people that told me you didn't like the venues that declares 1 winner over the rest of the dogs & that's why you chose the venues you run in.

Like I said tests are just that tests you are running for a score not a winner,nothing wrong with that but it's still not competition!

[DonF]

In AF birds aren't killed. That was AF's problem with NSTRA as I understand it. In AKC there are no kill stakes but kill stakes too. Kill stakes these days seem to be all call backs. Used to be either call back or a bird field. The kill stake's probably should be stopped. It seem's that most people see the retrieve as a pass or fail thing. If so why bother with it in the first place. If you want to demonstrate your dog's ability to retrieve, do hunt test's. They originally used a bird field, don't know today.

[duckn66]

I was looking at UKC's venue for pointing dogs. Seems they have to retrieve in order to pass the test if the test is being done with liberated birds. However, if it's not a liberated bird trial but instead working on wild birds they don't shoot them and the dog can still pass without a retrieve.

Maybe I didn't read far enough into it. But thats what I read and how I took it.

I don't see anything near me as far as AKC stuff goes for Pointing dogs. I see Brittany clubs, GSP clubs and some Vizsla clubs but nothing stating just pointing dogs in general.

[topher40]

Duck- You should try and make it to an AF trial this spring to really get a good feel for what you may or may not like. I would steer clear of any misconceptions that float around on the internet from the parrots that only repeat what they have heard and dont know. If you are interested give me a call and I would be more than happy to help. First one is in 3 weeks just west of Topeka. 785/288/0461

[slistoe]

I don't see anything near me as far as AKC stuff goes for Pointing dogs. I see Brittany clubs, GSP clubs and some Vizsla clubs but nothing stating just pointing dogs in general.

Very few of the clubs will restrict entries to specific breeds only. A pointing dog Hunt Test sponsored by a Vizsla club will usually be for any breed of pointing dog. Check the entry form for the test you are interested in.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

The clubs whether GSP,Vizsla,or other hold trials & tests for all pointing breeds most of the time.Where you located that would help us help you out.

[DonF]

I was looking at UKC's venue for pointing dogs. Seems they have to retrieve in order to pass the test if the test is being done with liberated birds. However, if it's not a liberated bird trial but instead working on wild birds they don't shoot them and the dog can still pass without a retrieve.

Maybe I didn't read far enough into it. But thats what I read and how I took it.

I don't see anything near me as far as AKC stuff goes for Pointing dogs. I see Brittany clubs, GSP clubs and some Vizsla clubs but nothing stating just pointing dogs in general.

It looks like your addressing two different venues. Test's require a retrieve. Trials not always. I don't know of any AKC trial that is run on wild birds nor any AKC hunt test.

I would love to see a push for more walking trials. When I did trial they were very few of them. Today I see there are several every year. Even one walking AF trial up in Wash.

[duckn66]

Don, I think you are correct. I see that now.

Topher, I'll give you a call a little later on this evening if you are going to be around.

If I were to do anything it would have to be walking, as I am horse-less as of about 10 yrs ago when the one horse I ended up keeping, a nice big Arab-quarter cross gelding was struck by lightening. That darn horse hated the rain and why he chose to be up on the highest part of the pasture in the rain and lightening that day is beyond me. He would go to his stall when he felt the first rain drop, always. Wife called me and told me, I just couldn't believe it. I was sick about it and still am.

Anyway, I appreciate all the good info from this post and also the fact everyone has kept it civil. I knew this could be a touchy subject when I posted it.

[shags]

I don't know of any AKC trial that is run on wild birds...

Hey Don, here's one!

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=43816

[Elkhunter]

I prefer AF myself and I really enjoy the wild bird CH in my area.

I would run AKC if it was active here, but it is not.

But if I had to choose, I would choose AF over AKC every time.

[jimbo&rooster]

I don't see anything near me as far as AKC stuff goes for Pointing dogs. I see Brittany clubs, GSP clubs and some Vizsla clubs but nothing stating just pointing dogs in general.

Other than the Britt clubs most of the others will state all breeds in their premium. I dont know about other parts of the country but here most Britt club trials are Britt only, so I don't even look when I see a britt club trial.

Jim

[RayGubernat]

duckn66 -

Depending on the area of the country you live in, there can be some differences between what is expected in an AF stake versus an AKC stake. There should also be a difference between the performance of a gun dog and al all age dog in AKC and the shooting dog an all age performance in AF.

There are lots of folks that are VERY uncomfortable with watching their dog go up over the hill and out of sight. Nothing wrong with that.

However, you need to understand that one of the most exhilarating feelings in bird hunting is that feeling of relief, pride and satisfaction is when you top that rise and discover your dog...locked up on point...just waiting for you to get there. If you never allow the dog to get out of your sight...if you don't let the dog go over that hill in the first place, and trust that the dog will do what it has been trained to do... you can never get that awesome feeling.

Nobody really likes to watch their dog fade into the next zip code an wonder..."Am I ever going to see that SOB alive again?" I know I don't. But unless you take that risk and let the dog go trusting the dog to come back for you or to be waiting for you, with birds off the end of its nose... You will never know just how awesome it can be.

As I said, letting the dog go to operate independently is awful hard for lots of folks. But in a lot of ways, that can be what separates the good dogs from the great ones in our lives. At least it does for me.

Field trialing is NOT hunting. It is a performance...a show. It is a game of extremes. The handler has a half hour or an hour(depending on the length of the stake) to show the judges just how great his dog is. To do that, you often have to "push the envelope".

RayG

[duckn66]

Ray when I got my first EP after over 20 yrs of not owning one I quickly figured out that I wanted an Astro tracker to make it easier to locate him. Even tho my first EP is a pretty close hunter. My younger pup will range depending on cover. I don't mind him heading over the hill now with the Astro.

My youngest one has finally figured out these wild quail and now holds his point until I get there or the birds flush wild. Last weekend he went on point at 324 yards over a hill and was there on point when I got there. That was an awesome feeing! That particular time really sealed the deal for me. It was so cool he held his point while I walked using the gps to locate him. Before that he was rarely over 100 yrds. Earlier in the season he would bust birds right and left.

Just in the past few hunts has he actually been holding points on wild birds and it's so much fun watching him point. My older one would rather run thru them than point them. May be the reason he was free. Although he handles very well and recalls excellent. I've got to get him to hold points somehow and he won't point pigeons anymore for some reason, at least the last time we tried.

[JKP]

Field trialing is NOT hunting. It is a performance...a show. It is a game of extremes.

Thank you...finally an honest statement. I've said this countless times and have been kicked, bashed and slandered. I hope you mean the most extreme trials because I have been to a few that were in no way more than a nice display of foot hunting dogs.

Some of us actually like to see our dogs work. Whether that is 2-300 yds away in the grass in ND or 50 yds in the grouse woods. We enjoy seeing the find and watching the dog "nail" the point....as much as you do riding over the hill to glass your dog standing tall on the next ridge line. It has nothing to do with being comfortable or uncomfortable...we just enjoy it. It also saves a ton of money in GPS equipment

[Grange]

In AF birds aren't killed. That was AF's problem with NSTRA as I understand it. In AKC there are no kill stakes but kill stakes too. Kill stakes these days seem to be all call backs. Used to be either call back or a bird field. The kill stake's probably should be stopped. It seem's that most people see the retrieve as a pass or fail thing. If so why bother with it in the first place. If you want to demonstrate your dog's ability to retrieve, do hunt test's. They originally used a bird field, don't know today.

I've heard a different reason for the break between NSTRA and AF. I've been told it had to do with advertising in the Field. They were separated when I got into trialing so I really don't know what the reason for the break was.

[Grange]

Field trialing is NOT hunting. It is a performance...a show. It is a game of extremes.

Thank you...finally an honest statement. I've said this countless times and have been kicked, bashed and slandered. I hope you mean the most extreme trials because I have been to a few that were in no way more than a nice display of foot hunting dogs.

Some of us actually like to see our dogs work. Whether that is 2-300 yds away in the grass in ND or 50 yds in the grouse woods. We enjoy seeing the find and watching the dog "nail" the point....as much as you do riding over the hill to glass your dog standing tall on the next ridge line. It has nothing to do with being comfortable or uncomfortable...we just enjoy it. It also saves a ton of money in GPS equipment

Many like to find as many birds as we can and 50 yards in the grouse woods and with a 50 yard pointing dog in the grouse woods you'd be missing a lot of opportunities for birds. Watching a dog slam point is a blast, but so is being able to walk up to your dog on point from a distance and flushing the bird for the gun especially when your dog is well out of eyesight. There's a lot of satisfaction knowing the all hours of training and running on wild birds paid off.

[Sharon]

duckn66 -

Depending on the area of the country you live in, there can be some differences between what is expected in an AF stake versus an AKC stake. There should also be a difference between the performance of a gun dog and al all age dog in AKC and the shooting dog an all age performance in AF.

There are lots of folks that are VERY uncomfortable with watching their dog go up over the hill and out of sight. Nothing wrong with that.

However, you need to understand that one of the most exhilarating feelings in bird hunting is that feeling of relief, pride and satisfaction is when you top that rise and discover your dog...locked up on point...just waiting for you to get there. If you never allow the dog to get out of your sight...if you don't let the dog go over that hill in the first place, and trust that the dog will do what it has been trained to do... you can never get that awesome feeling.

Nobody really likes to watch their dog fade into the next zip code an wonder..."Am I ever going to see that SOB alive again?" I know I don't. But unless you take that risk and let the dog go trusting the dog to come back for you or to be waiting for you, with birds off the end of its nose... You will never know just how awesome it can be.

As I said, letting the dog go to operate independently is awful hard for lots of folks. But in a lot of ways, that can be what separates the good dogs from the great ones in our lives. At least it does for me.

Field trialing is NOT hunting. It is a performance...a show. It is a game of extremes. The handler has a half hour or an hour(depending on the length of the stake) to show the judges just how great his dog is. To do that, you often have to "push the envelope".

RayG

So well said .
My best memory is of my 10 month old setter doing just that in a derby stake. . I round the corner and she is tight - to flush and shot too. I didn't even know she knew to do that, as I hadn't emphasized that yet. I thought I was going to cry. No feeling like it - of course the other folk were mad I hadn't put he r in shooting dog. Hey , I didn't know she was that good!