Accidental Breeding

horizon
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Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:26 pm

I had my dog at a pro trainers kennel for formal training $850 a month he was at the trainers kennel from Jan-Jul. While he was there he accidently bred a clients bitch which had already been bred to another male. The bitch owner sold all the pups before DNA results were able to confirm parentage. A multiple sired litter is the result of this accidental breeding. I was not offered a pup which is normal in the dog world to have that right? They sold the pups for $1000 each,my dog sired five of the eight pups,now they are offering me $1000 stud fee. And are going to try and register them with AKC, without my approval. What would you do???

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campgsp
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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by campgsp » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:31 pm

I would take the stud fee and register the pups.
Win & win

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ezzy333
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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Take the thousand and let them register the pups to the right sire. I don't see a problem with that.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Donnytpburge » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:41 pm

How long was he there?

Are you satisfied with the training?

Db

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Accidental Breeding

Post by ACooper » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:49 pm

Take the stud fee allow the registration and move on, why would you do anything else?

Like you said it was an accident.

Also how could you have been offered pup if they didn't know your dog sired any puppies? But, I do agree DNA should have been performed if there was a question of parentage.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by wems2371 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:58 pm

If the bitch was suitable to your liking, in other words, you would have accepted a breeding to her under normal circumstances...I would take the $1000. If she didn't have good hips or something else that you find highly objectionable, I would walk. Pretty sure that AKC isn't going to allow pups to be registered by your stud, without your permission.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:04 pm

DNA was pending before they sold pups. I have a closed line which means pups are sold with limited registration,to ensure only the best pups produced may be bred. It is a policy AKC allows breeders to select the best offspring.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by campgsp » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:12 pm

horizon wrote:DNA was pending before they sold pups. I have a closed line which means pups are sold with limited registration,to ensure only the best pups produced may be bred. It is a policy AKC allows breeders to select the best offspring.
The bitch owner only gets the option to choose that. (Limited reg).
Stud dogs owners have no say. As far as im concerned.
If the pups are your studs take the money and move on. May be as the pups mature to your liking you might want one in a repeat.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:18 pm

They gave me NO option to see them. Know where they are. Who they were sold to.???? NEVER DISCUSSED IT WITH ME.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:22 pm

From what I read an Ethical Breeding is one you approve of. UNETHICAL is not approved by stud dog owner.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:30 pm

Take the stud fee and let them worry about registration.
horizon wrote:...The bitch owner sold all the pups before DNA results were able to confirm parentage...my dog sired five of the eight pups.
How do you know your's sired 5/8 if the DNA was never done?

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by campgsp » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:33 pm

Unless you can prove that your trainer took you for a ride and used your dog purposely to breed another dog. Its an accident.
I get the feeling by what your saying something fishy was going on.
Maybe seek another trainer from here on out.
Why was a bitch in heat with male dogs unsuppervised? A trainer who deals with different dogs every day should be able to tell a bitch in heat. Othervthen adk questions
Not much you can do bud. Take the money and let it lay.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by wems2371 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:34 pm

I think he's saying DNA was pending, and now that they got the results, they're knocking at his door to get them papered.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by RoostersMom » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:35 pm

I would find it highly suspicious that the dog "accidentally bred" a female. Especially that she was bred to another male as well - that means they darned well knew when she was ready.

I would also say that you have as much right as the bitch owner in whether you offer full registration of those puppies or not. Why would only the bitch owner be able to decide that? If your "line" is one that you don't want to continue without YOUR approval (thus limited registrations) then I would have that talk with the owner of the bitch and if you feel strongly enough about it, don't allow the pups to be registered (ie, don't approve the paperwork that says your dog was the stud).

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:36 pm

wems2371 wrote:I think he's saying DNA was pending, and now that they got the results, they're knocking at his door to get them papered.
ahhhh...a grand in the hand... Just saying ;)

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:40 pm

Just what is the problem. I as a stud owner never expected to have a say where the puppies went and it sure wasn't my option to decide what they were sold for. The end of your responsibility is breeding the female and deciding what you wanted for a stud fee. Sounds like the breeder was fair and generous when he offered a full stud fee to you for half a litter. Remember your only connection to the litter as a stud owner is as a sperm donor. The owner of the female is the breeder and makes the decisions about the puppies. In this case you can refuse the thousand and the pups can't be registered but what do any of you gain by doing that.

Ezzy

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by rinker » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:42 pm

It sounds like you have three choices;
-Take the Thousand and move on
-Ask for something more than the thousand
-Do nothing, and let the trainer and dam owner deal with having sold 5 puppies that can't be registered

I would probably take the thousand and move on, but if I thought they were really trying to pull a fast one, I would ask for $5,000, and see how they respond.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:44 pm

On your side, I'd be ticked. Do you have a stud dog contract? I would have them sign something regarding the situation at least in case they should ever decide to make something of it. I know many of you on here do not do contracts, but I think it forces people to "hear" you when you tell them your desires. So often people agree but never remember what they even agreed to. Is your dog DNA tested already? If not non of the pups from your sire can be registered anyway until AKC has that on file.

On their side, they are probably REALLY put out also. They had a litter planned but they had to go and do a dual sire application, DNA test EVERY pup and that adds some serious expense. Not to mention the hassle of talking with all the puppy buyers about the situation and dealing with deposits and such. Kudos to them for testing and handling it correctly at least as far as the papers are concerned. Stinks they didn't keep you in the loop. There is a solid chance they were hoping the issue would go away and the dogs would all test from the sire they planned hoping your dogs breeding was too early or too late...

They should have contacted you. Yes. But they did not. The puppies are alive and well - now and there is no going back. Now that it's done, decide what matters to you. What do you feel should come out of this situation? Will you be helping the pups or your sire by your decisions? That is MY opinion but I do agree I would be miffed. It's a crappy situation from either side. :(

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:47 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I would find it highly suspicious that the dog "accidentally bred" a female. Especially that she was bred to another male as well - that means they darned well knew when she was ready.

I would also say that you have as much right as the bitch owner in whether you offer full registration of those puppies or not. Why would only the bitch owner be able to decide that? If your "line" is one that you don't want to continue without YOUR approval (thus limited registrations) then I would have that talk with the owner of the bitch and if you feel strongly enough about it, don't allow the pups to be registered (ie, don't approve the paperwork that says your dog was the stud).
It also says it was an accidental breeding. No one is going to decide to breed to two different males, and pay two stud fees plus the DNA testing unless it was a special female and a couple of really special males that he wasn't going to get the chance to breed to again in all likelihood.

Ezzy

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:51 pm

I recently had a bitch in heat here but kenneled of course (GSP) and my lab male was let out into the main fenced yard by the kids. No big deal. They were still separate BUT the lab pulled the kennel panels 2.5 feet over by the time I realized he was even out. Probably 10 minutes or so. If I had not been home - it could have been bad! I am sure he would have ripped the wire off. So accidents can happen. BUT still they better be rare and you better believe that lab is crated with a sign that says DO NOT LET ME OUT, anytime I am not around to be sure.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by taxidermy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:52 pm

Doesn't sound like you will get a pup , but if your stud fee is a little higher ; ask for more , what is a stud fee for a gsh?

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by campgsp » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:55 pm

The thing tgat would worry me the most is.
Is my stud hips checked or any other testing I may choose to do.
And my number one scare on the bitch part Brusolious check.
And hips on her too as well as any other choosed tests.

If you feel they took you make the bitch get chic certified. Won't hurt anything.

The options are all yours.
Just trying to help. Frustrating I get it.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Wildweeds » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:55 pm

Take the 1000 bucks with a Notorized written stipulation that the litter owner registers them limited only if you want to remain vigilant at keeping your line closed.Without your signature as Stud owner they are unregisterable,pretty sure the pup owners will be all over wanting a good portion,if not all their money back.You never know though,that particular blend of genetics might just turn into a great bunch of dogs that have something of merit to offer future generations. What breed are these?

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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:57 pm

You guys are making this way too hard. Why would they allow your dog to breed the bitch, knowing what they would have to go through to get them registered? Sounds accidental to me. Take the money and be happy your dog made you $1000. Those pups might even make a name for your dog. FYI-the owner of the bitch decides full or limited registration.

Doug

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Donnytpburge » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:08 pm

IMO

I'm curious to know if your satisfied with the training your
Dog received. If everything seems on the up and up with the training then
Take the stud fee and let them register . If you feel you got the
Shaft with the training then ask for a refund and the stud fee.



Db

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by shags » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:10 pm

horizon wrote:They gave me NO option to see them. Know where they are. Who they were sold to.???? NEVER DISCUSSED IT WITH ME.
What's the problem with that? The stud dog owner doesn't get to have any input to where pups are going. If the stud owner wanted a puppy instead of a cash fee of course he gets to see them, but otherwise he's simply the owner of a sperm donor.

Take the money and move on, don't let this accident rock your world. If the trainer and breeder were trying to be shady they would have kept their mouths shut and never even let your know.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by DougB » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:26 pm

horizon wrote:DNA was pending before they sold pups. I have a closed line which means pups are sold with limited registration,to ensure only the best pups produced may be bred. It is a policy AKC allows breeders to select the best offspring.
Check your contract. You might not have any say in registering the pups. The rights may belong to the breeder of your dog.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:36 pm

I am very aware of how limited registration works I have sold pups for ten years w/limited registration and it does enhance a program. On a typical breeding the bitch owner does determine,however this is far from typical.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Hattrick » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:50 pm

I really cant believe your making this big of a deal out this. They have been more than far with you take the money. More than likely you couldnt of gotten that much money for a stud fee if you tried. You should be prowd your boy had enough swagger to get it done. Accidents happen your a fool if you think they dont. My thinking is this if you continue to make waves over something this small you may shoot yourself in the foot in the dog world. No one will be willing to train your dog or sell you one in the future. Just 2 cents

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by RoostersMom » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:55 pm

I totally think you got taken on this deal - I don't think you're making a big deal about this at all. You are protecting your kennel name. I bet if I was training a top competitor dog and "accidently" bred him to a female, that the stud owner might not be happy - that's stealing, IMO.

Yes, BUT on a typical breeding, the option to stud the dog is yours as well. It sounds like, to me, that you wouldn't have bred to this dog. The "closed line" that you're carefully breeding for has just gone out the window and now people you did not approve of, a bitch you did not approve to breed to, and no limited registration are the result. So they can continue to breed "your line" if you approve the registrations. I'd be darn mad too. I don't think it's unreasonable for you to agree to approve the papers on a limited registration only. These pups have your kennel's DNA in them - it is just as much your right to decide whether you want them passing on those genes or not. It may have been accidental, but it's stealing. And just because they come in after the fact to give you money, doesn't make it right. They need to make it right - and guess what? Right is what you decide since you were the one stolen from.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Middlecreek » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:07 pm

The title of the topic says it all. Accidents happen..... if you wouldn't have bred to the female for a thousand dollars then dont take the money and dont sign the stud forms and let them sort it out. If you would have bred to her take the thousand and move on. Your dog will make more semen I'm sure... I don't see the point of dragging this out any longer. If you wanted to just drag someones name through the mud for an accident, mission acomplished, move on.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by campgsp » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:17 pm

I don't understand how its "stealing"
They offered to pay after dna shown his dog was the stud.
Were they supposed to just offer out a $1000 to each stud when it happened?
I would think not.
Its an accident.
Take the "free" money and run.
If the dogs end up being great. It'll just prove your dog. If not no one is going to care because they won't know.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:20 pm

I don't know either of the dogs but I would take the money & run laughing all the way to the bank,probably the last time you get a $1000 for stud fee but I might be wrong.
All I'm saying is I know NFC,s that don't get that!! Seems as though every one is out to cut the next person's throat!! That's why the world is the way it is today every one is out for themselves.

Regardless I hope you work it out & your hair don't fall out over it.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Karen » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:26 pm

As far as I'm concerned, the dam's owner is TRYING to do the right thing. Take the stud fee, let the pups be registered, and be done with it. It was an accident. If you feel the trainer was irresponsible or negligent, take it up with the trainer. Don't punish the dam's owner, or the people who bought the pups because of it.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:00 pm

Beginning to sound like someone is trying to take advantage of an accidental breeding. next time it may be you that has an accident and hopefully people will be as good to you as you are to the people that had this accident and tried to make it right.

Ezzy

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Hattrick » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:10 pm

Well said EZZY

$1000 stud fee for a untrained, untitled, unproven dog its more like steeling from the trainer for being too nice. After reading many replys on this thread its some serious cases of OCD going on in the dog world. This trainer sounds like a stand up fair guy.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ACooper » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:23 pm

Hattrick wrote:My thinking is this if you continue to make waves over something this small you may shoot yourself in the foot in the dog world. No one will be willing to train your dog or sell you one in the future. Just 2 cents
This was my thought exactly. Unless Horizon has reason to believe that this was not an "accidental" breeding, I agree they are trying to do the right thing. So Horizon are you making an issue of this because you believe that it was not an "accidental" breeding?

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:30 pm

I'm not saying people don't have accidents. How it was handled from there is where I have a problem. All they had to do is communicate with me and we all could have gained from it. That's not the case. So I'm supposed to be cool after six months of this sh@*. And hand them half of my program. If I boarded your dogs and had an accidental breeding and the bitch owner sold pups out of your male you would be OK with it?? I DOUBT IT. If you Don't Stand For something You Will Stand For Nothing.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by rinker » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:36 pm

It sounds like your mind is made up. Don't sign the slip, don't take the money. Let them deal with the fall out.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Middlecreek » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:47 pm

horizon wrote:I'm not saying people don't have accidents. How it was handled from there is where I have a problem. All they had to do is communicate with me and we all could have gained from it. That's not the case. So I'm supposed to be cool after six months of this sh@*. And hand them half of my program. If I boarded your dogs and had an accidental breeding and the bitch owner sold pups out of your male you would be OK with it?? I DOUBT IT. If you Don't Stand For something You Will Stand For Nothing.
Very simple solution: Do not sign the stud papers.... no harm to "your program". Unless you want the five pups sired by your dog to destroy so as not to jeprodize your elite program there is nothing more you can do. Not signing the papers sends a clear enough message you did not approve of the breeding and "your" line will not be carried on through those pups. No harm, no foul.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:49 pm

Where are the littermates to your dog? Have you notified those owners not to sell any pups for breeding since you are now claiming them to be part of your line. I have no idea what you are thinking but a line is worth exactly zero till you get some into the dog world. And there sure is no way you can pick the pups worth breeding once they have left your domain. Me thinks you are making a lot over nothing. Hope I don't get caught up in that line of thinking. Stop and think of it this way, there is not a single individual that is on the forum knows or have heard of Horizon GSP's But we have heard a lot about Walnut Hill, BDK, Uodibar, and many others and all because they are on the market and perform for their new owners.

Good luck
Ezzy

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by horizon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:55 pm

They were sold w/ limited registration. We have used two of them for breeding.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:17 pm

Have you spoken with the Bitch owner about the situation in person or via phone? It may be that talking with them about why and how they handled it will ease your mind. Or the reverse. But it may give you more insight into what to do. Sometimes hearing the passion or lack of passion a person has about their dogs and their breedings can not be passed on through written communication. Ask them what they like about their female, what they breed for and what their goals are. Get them talking about their own dogs and see what they share. Certainly you will learn something for good or ill. Also at what point did the trainer inform you of this breeding, and did you follow up with asking for the bitch owner's contact info. Did you make any efforts to contact them before the puppies were born?

Ultimately, you hold the key to those puppies' registrations and you can certainly deny the papers. I would expect that would cause quite a stir among the puppy owners, but maybe they sold them all as hunters/pets anyway so they may not mind. Your breeding practices are your decisions. you have nice dogs and you care about the breed. I sell on contract and I have some breeding restrictions though I do not think them to excessive. My goal is to protect the breed and the puppies. Many on this board will not buy a puppy if the seller has a contract, let alone limited registrations. That is also their decision. Again, your breeding practices are your decisions.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:39 pm

Ya I have never heard of Horizons GSP's either until today.

Take the $1000 and move on, as was mentioned you would never get that much anyway! Unless you are breeding some super rare frozen semen that no one else has access to I dont see how your "program" is being stolen.

What dogs has your "program" produced just curious? Accomplishments etc?

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:49 pm

$1000 is not uncommon for NAVHDA sires. and puppies.

I HAVE heard of Horizon kennels, and the lines the dogs come from. I do not think badgering the OP about breeding practices is helping. They asked a question and have had many opinions. Their decision to make.

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:08 pm

Hattrick wrote:I really cant believe your making this big of a deal out this. They have been more than far with you take the money. More than likely you couldnt of gotten that much money for a stud fee if you tried. You should be prowd your boy had enough swagger to get it done. Accidents happen your a fool if you think they dont. My thinking is this if you continue to make waves over something this small you may shoot yourself in the foot in the dog world. No one will be willing to train your dog or sell you one in the future. Just 2 cents
My thoughts exactly. the dog world is small. There are hundreds maybe thousands of dogs out there with the same bloodlines as yours. Maybe mixed a bit different. but still the same. They are just dogs like everybody else's. It was very likely a accident which can happen very easily and quickly. Why would anybody intentionally do a double sire breeding knowing the expense involved with AKC. It is five puppies not going to have a major affect on the breed or you. I suppose you could try to get them to put the puppies from your dog down. Seems a bit harsh or limit the registration. Seems a bit silly. If you have a problem tell them to keep the money and don't sign off on the registering. If not take the money and sign off as the stud owner. Simple..........................Cj

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Wildweeds » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:58 am

after some research and looking, closed line or not.............. your being overpaid double IMO,Take the money and RUN!

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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:52 am

One last thought. You are aware that the foundation for your breeding program and countless others, the great DC and HOF dog HH was the result of an accidental breeding. Maybe they bred the next HH. Think what that would do for your kennel. It's all about promotion..........................Cj

volraider
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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by volraider » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:27 am

Sounds like your trainer is a stand up guy, you should follow his lead and be a stand up guy also. Take the $1000 and be thankful you were dealing someone of high character especially in the world we live in today. It was obviously an accidental breeding.

Meller
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Re: Accidental Breeding

Post by Meller » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:45 am

I'm in the camp of take the money and move on; (accidents happen) But I do have a question and that is was the owner of the female there when the breeding took place or was it left for the trainer, if this is the case that the owner of the female was not there, then the owner is being exceptionly generous and upfront in my thinking.

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