Accidental Breeding

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:21 am

horizon wrote:I am very aware of how limited registration works I have sold pups for ten years w/limited registration and it does enhance a program.

Are all the puppies you sale with limited registration spayed and neutered?

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:31 am

Ok an accident is an accident they were honest about it take the stud fee. I've been in dogs a long time and 1000 dollar stud fee for an unproven male is unheard of. Now if I were the female owner I'd have a problem with what happened because now you sold pups that were misrepresented but no harm would have been done if you sign the stud paper's

Wind Dancer Kennels · Post by **Wind Dancer Kennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:10 am

Who is you stud dog and do you normally receive $1000 for his stud fee?

You can alway offer to by the 5 pups from their new owners as most would likely sell them to you if they are not going to be register with the AKC. They may also not want a pup out of your stud if they truly wanted a $1000 pup from the other stud dog. If you can buy the 5 pups, you then have control over who you place the unregistered pup with, no harm no foul.

Either take the money or pay the money to protect your line....depends on how deep your pockets are!
Just depends on how much you are willing to pay to keep you line closed.

duckn66 · Post by **duckn66** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:22 am

Hattrick wrote:Well said EZZY

$1000 stud fee for a untrained, untitled, unproven dog its more like steeling from the trainer for being too nice. After reading many replys on this thread its some serious cases of OCD going on in the dog world. This trainer sounds like a stand up fair guy.

Agreed. ^^

I would take the money and run like a bandit. Sounds like they are being way more than fair.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:37 am

S&J gsp wrote:Ok an accident is an accident they were honest about it take the stud fee. I've been in dogs a long time and 1000 dollar stud fee for an unproven male is unheard of. Now if I were the female owner I'd have a problem with what happened because now you sold pups that were misrepresented but no harm would have been done if you sign the stud paper's

I agree with this the owner of the female should be the mad one in this deal.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:52 am

Here is what I would've done had it be my responsibility. I would've notified both parties the day of accident. I would've discussed with both parties how we r going to handle this should a multiple sired litter be whelped. What the stud dog owners wishes r? The bitch owner? Pending DNA I would've held on to pups until I could prove proper parentage. Then I would ask both parties how we are gonna handle this and walk away.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:53 am

I just looked through your website and nothing about your "program" really impresses me. Breeding NA and JH bitches to a stud dog because they all have proven lineage is a joke. Take the money and sign the papers or don't take the money and don't sign the papers. Its not rocket science.

Jim

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:15 am

If my trainer and owner of bitch were such stand up guys they would've communicated with me to see how we all were gonna handle this the day it happened. And not sold pups until proper parentage was confirmed through DNA. We would have all won.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:35 am

horizon wrote:Here is what I would've done had it be my responsibility. I would've notified both parties the day of accident. I would've discussed with both parties how we r going to handle this should a multiple sired litter be whelped. What the stud dog owners wishes r? The bitch owner? Pending DNA I would've held on to pups until I could prove proper parentage. Then I would ask both parties how we are gonna handle this and walk away.

And if it had been handled this way, would you have taken the stud fee, signed the papers, and walked away?

Just curious if this is really about dogs...or egos.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:49 am

YES that wouldve made it alot easier for everyone.Stud dog owner has right for pick pup or stud fee traditional in the dog world. I asked for pup before DNA and the day DNA was confirmed. I was not offered either option.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:04 pm

I've never heard of that tradition & been in dogs longer then you been alive.

I think you need to talk to an attorney because legally the only one you could hold liable would be the trainer IMO.

Rajin Kennel · Post by **Rajin Kennel** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:06 pm

Youre to controlling in this whole dog game.... Take the $1000 and be happy!!

accidents happen. In every accident Ive been a part of I didn't have any control.... Thats why it was called an accident.

I read your purchase agreement on your website and now understand why you don't like this but come on man...

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:11 pm

Exactly how have you been harmed by this breeding and the selling of the puppies? How does keeping things stirred up and hanging on to the unrepairable benefit you? There is huge probability that those five pups will become nice average dogs that go on to nice average careers as gundogs. If some or all beat the odds and become world beaters, your kennel and the particular stud will get ' credit' for it. If all or some become horrible examples of the breed you most likely will not have to worry about about them being bred; you would have the knowledge that nick did not work for your future breeding plans.

When you own both sire and dam you have all the control over what is produced and who does what with it. But a a stud owner only, you just don't have that control in normal circumstances.

Why would the trainer or the breeder contact you on the day it happened? What's the point of six extra weeks of drama unless/until they know the litter has two sires? As far as pups being sold, it's not unusual for pups to be spoken for and deposits/payment made a long time before they are born.

Some of the puppy buyers aren't getting the pup they hoped and planned for - they got one from your dog instead. You can hard line it and withhold your signature on the papers, and possibly put those pups at risk of being placed in shelters, or culled, or relegated to a subpar life because now those buyers not only got the wrong pedigree, they now have a unregisterable dog. Would it be equitable for you to have the opportunity to buy back those pups without the dam's owner's signature so you can determine their fate?

Look at the big picture. Will this matter to anyone at all in a couple of years? You aren't the first guy to be involved in a 'whoops!' litter and you won't be the last. Get over it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:37 pm

horizon wrote:If my trainer and owner of bitch were such stand up guys they would've communicated with me to see how we all were gonna handle this the day it happened. And not sold pups until proper parentage was confirmed through DNA. We would have all won.

You forgot to add "in my opinion". Many of us are saying it sounds like the other parties are acting more mature than you at this point.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:26 pm

A bit off the subject ,but reading your purchase agreement. What does your guarantee do for the purchaser. It appears to say if there is a problem the buyer must have the puppy neutered and return the registration. I have a hard time understanding how that protects the buyer, the only benefit appears to be to the seller...........................Cj

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:38 pm

I think that the only thing you are doing now is tarnishing your own kennel's reputation. This situation would be solved petty easily, but you don't seem to want it to be over. Do it or don't, but get over it and move on. Clearly most people don't share your position on this subject.

Doug

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:53 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I think that the only thing you are doing now is tarnishing your own kennel's reputation. This situation would be solved petty easily, but you don't seem to want it to be over. Do it or don't, but get over it and move on. Clearly most people don't share your position on this subject.

Doug

Yes....

In all of this and my short visit to your web site I don't see where you are doing a "bleep" thing to benefit anyone but you.... If its breeding stock you co-own it, if its not breeding stock you limit registration, what happens if its a "bleep" eater? do you require the purchaser to shoot it and swear under oath not to tell anyone where it came from?

Up until this morning I had never heard of your kennel or your "program" and the more dumb "bleep" you put out on the interweb, the less I ever want to hear of it.

DUDE YOU ARE BREEDING DOGS WITH JH AND NA TITLES....... HOW PROVEN CAN THEY REALLY BE?

The fact is prior to getting DNA results they didn't know whether or not they HAD to deal with you, and I imagine they would likely rather have dunked those 2-3 pups than to be dealing with your BS anyhow.

Jim

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:34 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote: DUDE YOU ARE BREEDING DOGS WITH JH AND NA TITLES....... HOW PROVEN CAN THEY REALLY BE?

Jim

I really don't care to get involved in the bs. But you have said this twice now. (Referring to bitches in your first post with good background but low titles)

Go look at a majority of pedigree bitches rarely has any titles. But have good background. And have outstanding pups with a maybe titled up to the geezers stud.
For me I don't care if a bitch has 50 placements. I care morw about her background and the studs accomplishments.
Some of the best litters out there now and in the past were with an unknown bitch.

I'll get off my rocker now. And sit in shame for having beliefs.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:09 pm

cjhills wrote:A bit off the subject ,but reading your purchase agreement. What does your guarantee do for the purchaser. It appears to say if there is a problem the buyer must have the puppy neutered and return the registration. I have a hard time understanding how that protects the buyer, the only benefit appears to be to the seller...........................Cj

The contract seems all self serving.

You seem to think your dogs are worth the $1000 that the breeder was getting for their pups. If they were getting $1000 per pup they were breeding National Caliber dogs and expecting the same in the pups. Now all they got was some National Caliber pups and some hunting dogs worth $500 if the female was titled. You have been made a great offer. Everyone else on here would have been more than generous at accepting the $1000 and hope by breeding up to a National Caliber female you might actually get some decent linage. IMO.

Take your money and run. Your kennel name is taking a beating on here.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:14 pm

I suppose that my point is I don't really see where this guy has done enough to be on here acting like this. His dogs may have good blood and I'm guessing some reasonable stud dogs. But I don't see where he has anything other than blood that somebody else put together as part of this big program that these poor guys have caused him so much trouble over

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:20 pm

You should take the money & buy your self a BIGGER HAT!! :roll:

Oh & what do you think you are gaining by coming on a public forum with any of this?

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:36 pm

It all about Ethics and most of you have none so I can see your point. I've stated facts only.
I didn't have an accidental breeding. I didn't sell something that was not mine to sell without paying for it first. I sure as heck didn't sell puppies to owners with the promise that everything was alright. I have a program. I have policies. What I do and how I do it is not up to you guys. I'm not cutting anyone on how they run their business.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:45 pm

If you didn't want our opinions then why post it? Should have kept it between the parties involved.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:53 pm

I also did not advertise the litter as being out of one sire.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:57 pm

So you have a kennel/breeding program but you dont train your own dogs. I think all of this makes sense now. Good luck

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:05 pm

horizon wrote:It all about Ethics and most of you have none so I can see your point. I've stated facts only.
I didn't have an accidental breeding. I didn't sell something that was not mine to sell without paying for it first. I sure as heck didn't sell puppies to owners with the promise that everything was alright. I have a program. I have policies. What I do and how I do it is not up to you guys. I'm not cutting anyone on how they run their business.

You did nothing wrong so why you pulling your hair out.
You made an easy $1000 bucks on a unfinished dog and your complaining...
Im lost as to what you want us to tell you.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:08 pm

He wants someone to agree with him. Probably ought to go somewhere else. No sympathy here.

Doug

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:21 pm

All I wanted was opinions and I got them. SOME OF YOU SHOULD BE PROUD. Go and do what you believe in and work hard for and some day someone is gonna knock you down. Then remember how helpful most of you are on this forum. Its like a bunch of junior high girls.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:35 pm

cjhills wrote:A bit off the subject ,but reading your purchase agreement. What does your guarantee do for the purchaser. It appears to say if there is a problem the buyer must have the puppy neutered and return the registration. I have a hard time understanding how that protects the buyer, the only benefit appears to be to the seller...........................Cj

Not only that, but if you come up with a stellar pup and want to remove the Limited Reg on said pup, the buyer is extorted $250 for that favor. And this is nebulous at best:

Buyer has tested, trialed, or proven the above named pup as a "versatile hunting and family companion."

Look, I like GSP's, but not from this fella.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Right on bud. YOU'RE the mature one. Seems to me that you're riding on someone else's hard work.

Doug

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you didn't want our opinions then why post it? Should have kept it between the parties involved.

Better to keep your mouth closed and appear the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:40 pm

You know Horizon here is what gets me. You say it's about ethics and yet you sale your dogs with limited registration without spay/neuter contracts which does not prevent accidental breedings that could create un registered puppies, or registration fraud from your puppies, and yet your worried about your line in a purely accidental breeding?

Do you see the irony?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:55 pm

Vision wrote:You know Horizon here is what gets me. You say it's about ethics and yet you sale your dogs with limited registration without spay/neuter contracts which does not prevent accidental breedings that could create un registered puppies, or registration fraud from your puppies, and yet your worried about your line in a purely accidental breeding?

Do you see the irony?

Not only that but looking at some of the peds...what if the person HE bought his first GSP from would have laid the Limited Reg on him? He didn't build his "line" out of whole cloth.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:57 pm

What I do is my choice not anyone else. Same goes for you.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:00 pm

I've decided what I'm gonna do. Thanks for all the advice though.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:22 pm

horizon wrote:I've decided what I'm gonna do. Thanks for all the advice though.

Your welcome.

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:32 pm

I want the name of the trainer that is let this happen. heck I will send my male to him and see if I can get $1000 out of the deal. Take the money and use it to enter some Trials or Shows and get some title's on your studs then you will have a reason to worry about a closed line.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:34 pm

When I see a dog site that has contracts of any kind this is the kind of person I think of.JMO but would never do business with any of them.

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:06 pm

Your into half breeds what does it matter to you.?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:08 pm

horizon · Post by **horizon** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:11 pm

Maybe if more people concentrated on tre own programs and kept a limited number of good dogs out of their programs we would have more desirable stud dogs to choose from. Instead of marketing and making money. To Each is Own.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:19 pm

Every half breed in my kennels was bred by me about 11 of them at the moment so I keep a few!! & I'm proud of every one of them!

So get off your HIGH HORSE :roll:

If you want to see the Trial records on a few of my half breeds let me know & show me yours.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:24 pm

mountaindogs wrote:$1000 is not uncommon for NAVHDA sires. and puppies.

I HAVE heard of Horizon kennels, and the lines the dogs come from. I do not think badgering the OP about breeding practices is helping. They asked a question and have had many opinions. Their decision to make.

Yes, I have too.

horizon wrote:Here is what I would've done had it be my responsibility. I would've notified both parties the day of accident. I would've discussed with both parties how we r going to handle this should a multiple sired litter be whelped. What the stud dog owners wishes r? The bitch owner? Pending DNA I would've held on to pups until I could prove proper parentage. Then I would ask both parties how we are gonna handle this and walk away.

Yes, that's what I would have done. I find it far easier to be forthright when things happen, apologize, and make a contingency plan if need be...than hope the potential problem disappears. Grab the bull by the horns.

horizon wrote:Stud dog owner has right for pick pup or stud fee traditional in the dog world.

I don't feel that to be true, I still think that is up to negotiation between the two parties...and more importantly, this isn't a traditional breeding where everything was agreed upon prior to mating. I would let that line of thinking go.

horizon wrote:What I do and how I do it is not up to you guys. I'm not cutting anyone on how they run their business.

It's always interesting how things turn. I never heard you mention the trainers name or the bitch owners name, which would have been easy to do. I have no idea if the bitch or the other stud involved had better pedigrees or any accomplishments to their name, to where it makes it okay to slam your dog. I'm guessing you don't hold people at gunpoint to buy puppies from you or purchase a stud service, to where your contract is of my concern. I could care less that you didn't train this dog yourself, but sent it to a trainer. Seems a lot of people do that. Anyway, in the end, I hope you decide not to be a rightfighter. If the bitch doesn't have genetic issues, I'd register the puppies and take the $1000. I don't find that $1000 generous, but rather the price of doing business. Money was collected on the puppies and evidently it wasn't a concern to the buyers who the sire was. It's only 3 puppies. Not everyone buys a puppy to breed it later. And as has been said, some will actually do some things with them, that you might be pretty proud of in the end.

Horizon, taking it to the gutter does you and your kennel no justice, and by giving your opinion on what others should do with their programs opens the door wide on yours.

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:37 pm

I have been watching how this thread has developed and I am at a loss on a few things. Horizon sounded like his first thing that he was interested in was the option to have a pup out of this breeding. How do you know the bitch was even worth her salt or if she had been ofa'd or screened for other health issues? Why would you even consider having a pup from a bitch that might not be the best of the best ? I know nothing of your dogs or your breeding program so could you tell us why your male or your other dogs are so special for that matter? If you really think your dog is the best of the best and the female is the same take the thousand dollars. If you think that the female is the least bit inferior and you truly are looking out for the breed do not take the money and do not let the pups be registered. By seeing what some of the other posters said that your dogs are not proven I think they were being very generous to offer you a grand. I would not buy a pup from you after reading your contract. If I pay money for a pup it is mine and not limited or I would not even consider it. When I see this I really think it does have to do with ones ego. If you are kennel blind in a search for breeding stock you are not trying to do the best. Your dogs are not that special and if you can get big money for stud fee or pups that OK. You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people .
Birddog 307

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:46 pm

I think this post has run its course and needs to be locked, nothing beneficial to anyone now.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:46 pm

I know that one of Dave's dogs qualified for the invitational this year. HORIZON'S CHIEF VOM HUSTLEBERG Good Luck at the invitational.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:50 pm

I agree on a lock. valid points have been made by many it is only one way its going to go now.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:13 pm

I think you are right and your wishes shall be granted.