fascinating

[Trekmoor]

I didn't want to derail one of the current training threads so I posted this in here. I found it fascinating to read of the differences in costs between training a pointing dog in America and training one here. It is expensive here just as it is in America to send a dog to a pro-trainer but most people here train their own dogs either on their own or sometimes on a pay by the hour basis with a trainer on a 1-2-1 basis and sometimes as part of a training class at a much cheaper rate.

For those of us who train on our own the biggest expense is usually the fuel , I think petrol or diesel costs about twice as much here as it does in America, you are very lucky in that regard. The birds we train the dogs on, pheasants, grouse, partridge, snipe, woodcock cost nothing at all provided we aren't shooting them. I train on public land with a very poor head of wild raised birds but also on shooting estates once the shooting season has ended but before the nesting season has begun. It isn't too unusual for one of my dogs to find 20-30 pheasants in one hour while doing this.

In August/September I can hunt the dogs again on the shooting estates while doing "dogging-in" which is sort of herding straying birds back in towards the centre of the estates. It saves the gamekeepers from having to do it. While doing that job my dogs have found anything from 20 to 100 birds in an hour or two while dogging-in the outlying areas of estates.

It isn't as good as it may sound, dogging-in is not ideal work for a pointing dog, the birds are too "tame" and there can be too many of them. I use my cockers for a great deal of that work but at least I don't have to pay for it and it isn't unheard of for estates to pay their dogging-in man.

Maybe I have gained the wrong impression of work hours in America but you seem to work longer hours than we normally do here and therefor have less time to train your own dogs which may be why you seem to have so many pro trainers by comparison to Britain ?

These photographs were taken by me a few days ago while hunting my Brittany and a vizsla on a shooting estates residual birds. Great fun and good training practice.




Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Bill T.
Very nice explanation of how it is done on your side of the pond. Having been to Wales on a number of occasions it is how I remember training with me friends there. For the motivated trainer it is absolutely the best system in the world for building gun dogs.
Thanks for sharing.
As an aside I wonder could that system work with the sheer numbers of American trainers, would the estates become overwhelmed with activity? The number one issue going forth in this country in the new millennium is Where do we run dogs and shoot? Having been involved with the field trialing of spaniels it is the number 1 task of finding suitable grounds to train and hold events. We do not have an estate system in this country, it is private or public lands and many cases it is like being caught between a rock and hard place.
It is the change we can count on!

[crackerd]

Bill, what's up with that Viz's tail? Why, it's almost as straight-shooting a "tale" as this

Maybe I have gained the wrong impression of work hours in America but you seem to work longer hours than we normally do here and therefor have less time to train your own dogs which may be why you seem to have so many pro trainers by comparison to Britain ?

MG

[birddogger]

Great pictures!! Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

[roaniecowpony]

Bill
great description of some of the duties involved in game shoots over there. Ive not had the opportunity to shoot over there.

Regarding the number of "professional trainers", my first thought is that there are all kinds of people out there (in the states) calling themselves a "trainer". Many of them do it as a second income. Many supplement dog training with other activities. And then there are full-time trainers. I really dont think there are a lot of full-time trainers compared to the population and size of the country. I think most people train their own dogs in the states. That thread where the guy asked whether to train his own dog or send it to a pro had overwhelming opinions for the guy to do it himself.

[Trekmoor]

Bill T.

As an aside I wonder could that system work with the sheer numbers of American trainers, would the estates become overwhelmed with activity? The number one issue going forth in this country in the new millennium is Where do we run dogs and shoot?

Maybe my post needs a bit more explanation , I think I may have given the wrong impression.

Britain's estates do not allow anyone wanting to find game onto them. Entrance onto the estates is usually gained during the shooting season by working for the estate as either a beater or as a picker-up. When I was younger and fitter I did beating and picking-up but now only do picking-up. Doing this gets you "known" by the landowner and by the gamekeeper as a reasonably sensible and trustworthy person. It usually pays dividends to be on good terms with the keeper for he is the person who usually says whether you can hunt over the estate .....or not ! Permission to hunt does not mean permission to shoot or even to fire off a shotgun . I use party poppers to simulate a "bang" as a bird is flushed.

I can go the estate the photographs were taken on at any time , any day of the week without informing the keeper but if I were to fire off a shotgun the keeper would be dragged away from his work to see what was going on and I would not be popular !

If I ask in advance I can turn up with a shotgun and shoot the hundreds of woodpigeons but never shoot any gamebirds. The estate I usually go to has innumerable left-over pheasants and a few partridge and woodcock ....great for pointing and steadiness to flush practice but never to be shot.
The dogs get to retrieve plenty of birds there as picking-up dogs so I am very happy with this arrangement .....plus I get paid for doing the job.




Bill T.

[DonF]

I believe that most people in this country do train their own dogs. Trainer's for most Americans are extremely expensive. Just anyone cannot just go out and hire a trainer, simply cost's to much. Even the training seminars I've heard of are not inexpensive by a long shot and some require you to go quite a ways to be there. So on top of the seminar come's in travel and lodging expense's. What there are lot of in this country and what is reasonable is training videos. I've seen a few other's have and for no more than they are, most are good instruction and at your fingertip's should you need a refresher, you most likely will. As for birds to train on like you have, I know of nowhere in this country you can get into that many birds. Then again, it would be my view that you have to many birds. I say that never having seen that many birds in any field. I have the impression that over there a great deal of your birds are game farm birds? hard to imagine that many wild birds. I think a problem here with training on wild birds is there is going to be days with few or no bird contacts unless your set up where johnny house's are used and then it's back to game farm birds, but better than the normal put and take birds. Public land for training normally is either awfully rugged or remote and private land closed of leased out to people that can afford the lease's. Here where I am, I have both I can use but what I don't have is wild birds. Our bird population went down hill a number of years ago and hasn't returned. So, even on private land here, it's game farm birds or pigeons or nothing.

I don't know how some people can get their dog trained here, between time and cost it can be pretty hard. Bird dog clubs are an excellent choice here but, while most clubs have guy's that are good at training other's don't. And the one's good at training are sometimes not so good at teaching. But, it's better than blundering around.

I do like the looks of the Vizsla's long tail! There's a thread here called "spot" I think it is. Absolutely beautiful tail on that dog. It seem's that over there it's against the law to dock a tail?

[Trekmoor]

Hi Don, is against the law to dock a pups tail in Scotland but it is still legal in England if a vet does it and certificates the docked pups. I think docking is still legal in Ireland and Wales too. These 4 "countries" all consider themselves to be separate entities for some things but not for others which leads to quite a bit of tail-docking jiggery-pokery !

Most of any estates residual pheasants at the end of a shooting season will have been released from pens towards the end of summer . By this time of year they will have been hunted for and flushed by the beaters dogs many times during drives. .... They tend to become quite wild !
I agree that too many birds can be as bad as too few so I usually choose areas to hunt that I think will have few birds around. This afternoon I saw only about 12-14 pheasants during one hour of hunting and only a couple of those birds held position as my dog pointed them. The others knew what came after being found and legged it. The great majority of my hunting for these birds on the estate is done in or very near to woodlands , it is seldom the case that a dog will find a bird by hunting the stubble fields . Pretty quartering patterns don't work too well in thick woodlands so I often just let the dogs get on with the job while keeping in touch with them by using the turn whistle if I think the dog has been gone from view for too long or if I can see it moving too far out for easy control.

This is one of my Brittany's points this afternoon. I commanded her to make the flush and she did but the bird chose to run for 20 yards rather than fly off at once. It changed it's mind and flew off strongly just before my Brittany caught it ! :roll:



This pic is here just because I think she looks pretty !


Bill T.

[Sharon]

Great pics. all round. Like any business you can charge what you can get. Where I live there are only 2 or 3 good trainers so .................$$$$$$$$$$$

[marysburg]

Trekmoor, thanks for posting such great photos. Your dogs look terrific, and the settings are so beautiful. I was still imagining your EB as a young pup, but she looks like she has it all figured out. How old is she now? Looks like both dogs love their work.

[Trekmoor]

Thanks, she is 14-15 months old now and is a lot of fun to train. She and the vizsla make quite a team. This is the two of them out picking up in the estates deer park. It is a huge area of walled and fenced in parkland containing a herd of fallow deer. It can be "interesting" to send a dog for a fallen pheasant in there if it has fallen near to the deer ! The dogs have just seen a bird fall and are hoping I will send one of them.



Bill T.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Great pictures!! Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

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