Gun Dog Forum

I have been following the 2014 National Championship at Ames Plantation on their website (Brace by Brace Synopsis). It is very interesting to me to see that all but one dog to this point (after only 3 braces being reported) have been "picked up" before the required 3 hour time limit. I would love to learn more as to what types of things commonly happen to have a dog ordered to be picked up in a trial.

BVK wrote:I have been following the 2014 National Championship at Ames Plantation on their website (Brace by Brace Synopsis). It is very interesting to me to see that all but one dog to this point (after only 3 braces being reported) have been "picked up" before the required 3 hour time limit. I would love to learn more as to what types of things commonly happen to have a dog ordered to be picked up in a trial.

I doubt those dogs were ordered to be picked up. I'd guess the handlers knew the dogs weren't getting it done so they decided to pick them up out of respect for the judges.

Got it...makes sense. Thank you!

Like Grange said the pro handlers know when these dogs are having a performance that might possibly be in contention & if not they pick them up.No sense in wearing the horses,handlers, or even injury if there not getting it done.
The judges do on ocassions order the dogs up but that's mostly for making mistakes,like maybe not backing,running birds up,taking forward steps after the flush, etc.These are totally broke dogs & infractions are frowned upon
& the handlers usually don't have to be told when to pick up when the dogs make mistakes.2 UPs normally a pick up by the handlers.

At that level you pick your dog up pretty quickly is there's any kind of problem... unproductives to day. You don't keep your dog down to get your $600.00 ? worth. Judges appreciate you not wasting their time.

http://www.amesplantation.org/field-tri ... -synopsis/

NIce to see my friend / neighbor Jeff is still being so supportive:

•Jack Haggis Saddlery, Jeff & Karen Haggis, 4733 Scotchmere Drive, RR #2, Glencoe, Ontario, Canada NOL 1MO (519) 289-5544 (www.haggissaddles.com), will provide a Haggis Trooper Saddle for the handler of the 2014 National Champion.

You need bird work to win here. Only a few dogs have had a find to two...That's not going to cut it for a 3 hour championship. Handlers there know they're not cutting it if they have no finds after 1 1/2 hours. Also, 2 unproductives will severely hurt you so most handlers elect to pick up. Im sure there were other reasons for pick ups like mentioned above.

Shadow Oak Bo is at the top of the heap as of his run this morning!! Maybe a REPEAT

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Shadow Oak Bo is at the top of the heap as of his run this morning!! Maybe a REPEAT

Wouldn't that be great? How long has it been since a dog won it back to back? I plan on having Stormy win it in 2017, unless I kill him first! He ate another pillow on the bed!:-)

WOW! looked at the running. 7 finds is absolutely running away with it! They are lucky stormy is not quite house broke yet! When he has something he doesn't want me to take away, he can really fly!

Does each dog get a fresh course?? Are they running on wild birds only?? Sounds like you have to have a little luck too!!

Hey Don I'm all for you & Stormy in 2017!! GO STORMY GO!!

Always has to be some one to try & be little it! & he call me arrogant! Yes JKP I'm talking about YOU!

Wouldn't that be great? How long has it been since a dog won it back to back? I plan on having Stormy win it in 2017, unless I kill him first! He ate another pillow on the bed!:-) :mrg


I take it a feather pillow!

JKP wrote:Does each dog get a fresh course?? Are they running on wild birds only?? Sounds like you have to have a little luck too!!

several courses rotated I believe, Yes, yes ( Nothing wrong with your post. )

There are two courses, they are each used one time per day. Two braces of a three hour duration are ran each day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. Birds were released earlier this season, but no birds were liberated immediately prior to this trial. There are wild birds there also. The trial usually lasts two weeks or more and the weather can change drastically during that time. Luck does come in to play as far as the weather goes.

I have never seen Shadow Oak Bo run. I have seen several puppies directly by him. I liked all of them and I am not a setter man. I am really thinking about trying a Bo puppy, although I really don't need another dog and they are expensive.

So if there are several courses, it must get tougher for the later dogs...I'm asuming there not putting out birds for a national CH.

JKP wrote:So if there are several courses, it must get tougher for the later dogs...I'm asuming there not putting out birds for a national CH.

Why not?

DonF wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Shadow Oak Bo is at the top of the heap as of his run this morning!! Maybe a REPEAT

Wouldn't that be great? How long has it been since a dog won it back to back? I plan on having Stormy win it in 2017, unless I kill him first! He ate another pillow on the bed!:-)

WOW! looked at the running. 7 finds is absolutely running away with it! They are lucky stormy is not quite house broke yet! When he has something he doesn't want me to take away, he can really fly!

According http://thefieldtrialer.com/forum/ it has been 86 years there was a 2X setter champion. Whether it was a back to back championship I don't know, but that is a long time.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Shadow Oak Bo is at the top of the heap as of his run this morning!! Maybe a REPEAT

Woot!!! I was so excited to hear about this. Go Bo!

ezzy333 wrote:

JKP wrote:So if there are several courses, it must get tougher for the later dogs...I'm asuming there not putting out birds for a national CH.

Why not?

Why not? Because it was decided this year that they were not liberating/salting the course just prior (never during) to the NC. They have a quail program there and these quail were not "put down" just for the NC, they have been there a while. Hence the low find #s the first week (plus crappy weather)

There are 2 courses...one for the morning and one for the afternoon. Repeat...

Yes Bo has the most finds, but a four find 3 hours could beat the seven finds... just saying

Check out the Ames Plantation website. Wildlife habitat section They have been working with the quail population for a long time including radio tracking. The birds are there! Horrible weather the first week. Forecast looking good for this week although unusually warm compared to unusually cold last week. Wish I was off work. I'd be there. Go Bo!

Check out the Ames Plantation website. Wildlife habitat section They have been working with the quail population for a long time including radio tracking.

Could be Bill Palmer from Tall Timbers that has done the tracking/research there.

JKP wrote:

Check out the Ames Plantation website. Wildlife habitat section They have been working with the quail population for a long time including radio tracking.

Could be Bill Palmer from Tall Timbers that has done the tracking/research there.

There is a possibility that Ames was radio tracking before Tall Timbers was.

There is a lot of luck involved, but the birds move quite a bit. I drew course 2 at our CH this fall, we run on three courses. I ran on the last day, so two braces of dogs had ran through my course before I ran. We still got lucky and dug up a find on some sharpies to take RU.

Lot of good dogs left!

Although the judges do not simply count finds, I can only think of a couple times in the last 20 years that a lower find dog won.

John Rex has a Bo litter on the ground now, out of a nice female. They will be costly.

Lot of very good dogs to run, including a very nice setter female, but I have Bo in the top spot. Better reserve a pup now, he repeats and the price goes up, and up.

The best those that have already ran can hope for is a second series. Everyday of good weather without a matching bird tally improves his position.

But that is all my guess.

If he repeats you could be looking at Lean Mac prices for pups and frozen.

What a Canadian retriever he was!

Bonnie, the only other setter in the field was scratched.

Neil, do you know why? I hope whatever reason it's nothing awfully serious.

And do you know if Herb Anderson is present to see his dog go? That fella is amazing and one of my heroes!

Neil wrote:Bonnie, the only other setter in the field was scratched.

Second hand is that she came into heat.

Ray said it was not serious and she was going to run in the Carrol County A-A as drawn, so I doubt it was because she came in season. She is a really nice dog and should be back and ready to go the 3 hours.

I did not see Herb at the drawing, but I hope he is there now, a true gentleman and a credit to our sport.

The Ames site says that she was withdrawn because she came in season.

Someone needs to cut half the tail off one of the remaining dogs so they can find some birds.

And do you know if Herb Anderson is present to see his dog go? That fella is amazing and one of my heroes!

I saw Herbie in one of the online photos. He's there.

Many dogs have competed in season, didn't say she wasn't in season, just that I doubted that was the reason she was withdrawn.

Herb is an inspiration to us all, wish his dog had a better run.

And now there are 6 to go.

Many dogs have competed in season

I have never been to the National Championship, and certainly do not know all of the rules. How would they have handled the situation if the dog is in heat, and she was going to compete? She was braced with a male dog.

rinker wrote:

Many dogs have competed in season

I have never been to the National Championship, and certainly do not know all of the rules. How would they have handled the situation if the dog is in heat, and she was going to compete? She was braced with a male dog.

If declared before the drawing she would have been braced with another female or ran as a bye. If after the drawing, she is either scratched, ran with the moved up bye if a female, or ran as a bye.

Now there are 4.

Looking good for a repeat. Or maybe a second series.

I had high hopes for Game Strut. Two of the best dogs in the last decade in his pedigree; Strut and Game Maker. He is nearly sure to be back.

Just got unoffical word that Quester had 7 finds and a good, wide application.

Weather is threatening, may cause the afternoon brace to be delayed until tomorrow morning.

This is why we have experienced knowledgable fair judges. I am confident they will sort it out.

I would love a little drama... a head to head second series

It might happen, last time it did was 2004, with Miller's On Line winning over Broadway Silver Belle. On Line had ran in rough weather with 4 finds, Belle had 8. In the second series, online had 3 to Belle's 1 before they crossed the road and he was much stronger on the ground. I rode the whole trial that year.

The Ames' site says Quester had 6 finds, 1 STF and a UP. From two on the ground he was very strong on the ground, with 2 extreme limb finds. The UP is a non-issue, the stop to flush depends on the details.

Called off this afternoon, we should know the results by Noon.

I still have Bo winning, but I am well under. 500 in calling it even when I see it.

Neil

Neil wrote:
I still have Bo winning, but I am well under. 500 in calling it even when I see it.

Neil

I've got to ask Neil why do you have Bo on top? I did not see either dog run but heard Quester was impressive on the ground today, just curious.

Again I do not have an impressive record in picking winners of the NC.

I know both dogs and how they usually apply themselves, in the past Bo's race is more consistant with the judge's current interpretation of the Amesian standard. Quester is sometimes a bit stronger, requiring more scouting. And there is the stop to flush, that could be a demerit, just depends on how and why, and what the judges saw.

In my defense, there are at least three viewpoints; the handler's, the judge's, and those in the gallery. At the NC, you don't always see a lot from the gallery. And trully I am not qualified to judge the NC.

Both of the owners and handlers are friends and deserving, I will be happy with either, and we still have 2 to go, plus Boss with 4 finds.

Just my opinion.

Neil wrote: . . . I know both dogs and how they usually apply themselves, in the past Bo's race is more consistant with the judge's current interpretation of the Amesian standard. Quester is sometimes a bit stronger, requiring more scouting. . . .

As with a lot of things, I know just enough to get me in trouble. My experience with horseback pointers has pretty much been limited to riding a couple of years at the Missouri Open Shooting Dog Championship. I've never been around a dog from the "Big Circuit." I thought in an All Age event it didn't matter how hard the scout had to ride as long as the dog stayed in reasonable contact with the handler. How much does the amount of scouting needed affect the outcome of an All Age event? Is it different for trials run under the Amesian standard? Are any trials other than the National Championship run under that standard?

KCBrittfan wrote:

Neil wrote: . . . I know both dogs and how they usually apply themselves, in the past Bo's race is more consistant with the judge's current interpretation of the Amesian standard. Quester is sometimes a bit stronger, requiring more scouting. . . .

As with a lot of things, I know just enough to get me in trouble. My experience with horseback pointers has pretty much been limited to riding a couple of years at the Missouri Open Shooting Dog Championship. I've never been around a dog from the "Big Circuit." I thought in an All Age event it didn't matter how hard the scout had to ride as long as the dog stayed in reasonable contact with the handler. How much does the amount of scouting needed affect the outcome of an All Age event? Is it different for trials run under the Amesian standard? Are any trials other than the National Championship run under that standard?

Ive heard it said many times that it takes an AA dog to qualify for the NC and a good SD to win it. I think a good scout is as important at the NC as anywhere else but the name of the game when your riding shotgun is "out of sight, out of mind".....
Jim

I got my start in the sport because of reckless abandon scouting, I have done some extreme ridding; but rarely did that result in winning. As I matured, I lost some nerve and learned to be near invisible, becoming a much better scout. The judges were left with the impression the dog did it all on its own, except for the call of point.

At a panel discussion of the top NC scouts; Nick Thomson, Larry Hoffman, Steve Hurdle, they all modestedly said when they were winning all they did was hold the handler's horse.

Not being there I do not know which scouts were observed in what these judges would consider excessive actions, just guessing that Quester might have needed a bit more attention. He is a great dog! And I am not saying Bo is not a true All-Age, he is. The difference would be so subtle as to not even be commented on.

Lots of other aspects to seperate them, I was just answering a question.

We will soon know.

slistoe wrote:

JKP wrote:

Check out the Ames Plantation website. Wildlife habitat section They have been working with the quail population for a long time including radio tracking.

Could be Bill Palmer from Tall Timbers that has done the tracking/research there.

There is a possibility that Ames was radio tracking before Tall Timbers was.

With the Garmins on the dogs, do the quail research ever cross reference the data of where the dogs run to where the birds are normally located. Or even better yet have they ever followed with quail trackers and see where the birds are or were as the dogs and gallery travel through the courses.

Might be a true evaluation as to how the quail evolve through the year and trials on the grounds. Whether they stay locally or do they move deeper and deeper into the thickets?

Neil wrote:

rinker wrote:

Many dogs have competed in season

I have never been to the National Championship, and certainly do not know all of the rules. How would they have handled the situation if the dog is in heat, and she was going to compete? She was braced with a male dog.

If declared before the drawing she would have been braced with another female or ran as a bye. If after the drawing, she is either scratched, ran with the moved up bye if a female, or ran as a bye.

Now there are 4.

Looking good for a repeat. Or maybe a second series.

Neil correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the dog in season moved to the last brace and run either as a bye or braced with another female?

DonF wrote:...Isn't the dog in season moved to the last brace and run either as a bye or braced with another female?

Not if the dog is drawn NOT in season and THEN comes into season during the trial.

FWIW, both dogs in the last brace were picked up and now we r just awaiting announcement...Boss, Bo, or Quester hmmmm.....

Don,

In AF it is up to the club, but generally the bye dog moves up if a scratch, down in AKC.

At the NC, dogs can be drawn in season, but apparently if they come in during the two weeks of the trial and braced with a male they are scratched. I did not know that until this year and I am still not sure.